MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
I'm inclined to suppose all of the above might be a strategy to try to keep MK at #1 worldwide.
-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
WSJ: Even Disney Is Worried About The High Cost Of A Disney Vacation (gift link)
- Thread starter lentesta
- Start date
MrPromey
Well-Known Member
Dockside, one of the two cheapest resort options, which you mentioned is an obvious example of your point but their premium resorts (Portofino, Hard Rock, Saphire Falls, Royal Pacific) are a completely different story both in theme and in bubbleness. The water taxis provide direct access to the parks skipping the near mile-long trek other's experience from the parking and bus area and they also have easy, direct access to the best parts of Citywalk in a way most Disney resorts don't even have to Disney Springs.
It remains to be seen how this experience fairs with their version of transportation to Epic, though and how that holds up. If it's the same double-long busses they stuff with standing-room only that go back and forth from the Endless Summer hotels, that'll be another story.
Last edited:
Jrb1979
Well-Known Member
That IMO is the gist of this whole problem that's going on this summer. Many aren't going to Disney this summer due to either the heat or pricing. It's evident with Disney hotel rates the lowest they've been since COVID.
Add in your post and I would be a decent amount of people have the same view. It's the perfect storm as to why Universal also has a lot of availability at their hotels too.
I'm sure Epic Universe will be busy over the summer but I also think it's not going as crowded as it many think n
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
Agreed. Friends ask me why I like WDW so much and my first response is always "the scale". It's simply so large with so much to potentially see and do and for the most part everything in the parks is still themed very well. We will start each day early, park hop to at least 3 parks a day, and stop late. I often joke with them how I can show them how to spend a day at WDW for free - where to park (DS), take a bus into WDW and tour various resorts, even ride some ferry boats and the monorail - without spending a dime. Of course you won't get into the parks but it just illustrates how much more there is.
On the other hand, USO is more of an upgraded Six Flags to me. The theming in the parks (aside from the HP stuff) isn't as deep or immersive, and we can pretty much do everything we want in 3 or 4 hours and we're done. Repeat for 3 or 4 days and we've got our fix. We don't eat at Citywalk because it's relatively expensive compared to taking an Uber to a nice Brazilian steakhouse close by. I don't see Epic substantially changing that because based on what I've seen it's also a short one-day park.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
IMO, AK and HS are not full day parks either, especially AK.
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
Definitely not.
Jrb1979
Well-Known Member
IMO a lot of that view is from hardcore Disney fans and those who have grown up with the parks. IMO the average person is more 50/50 with Universal and Disney.
From reading the posts of when you started going to Disney, it tends to skew more towards older fans. Your less into rides but more experiences and taking in things like Food and Wine.
RoysCabin
Well-Known Member
Man, a million things that could be said about all of this...
I grew up getting to go to WDW almost every year, first with my family and then as part of the class trips my parents would chaperone for the high school they worked at. I get to do that latter thing now, and it means getting to go to Disney for next to nothing, given how the price structures go for group/school trips. When that's the case? I can't complain much about Lightning Lanes and food prices or whatever. But I also know that, despite being a lifelong fan with a massive amount of nostalgia for the parks (I'm pushing 40 now), it's not a trip I'm looking to do that frequently anymore unless I'm getting that kind of discount. Maybe a trip for a couple days at Food and Wine with my girlfriend at some point, but not a ton else.
It hurts to say, because there's still tons I love about visiting: I love going through the classics in MK, I'm a lifelong EPCOT nerd, adore AK's theming, I even still get a big kick out of the front half of Studios. But for one, there's not enough to fully justify the costs involved anymore; I did a couple trips, just the girlfriend and I, about 10 years ago where we made it for a decent stay at soundly under $1000 a person, and that feels like a pipe dream now. I also feel like the food situation's gotten weird; while I'm sure some of it is the nostalgia speaking, I do think there's a notable difference in quality between the old "in-house" prepared food versus today's contracted stuff.
But that's not even the biggest part to me; trips to Disney have always been expensive, that's a joke that runs back decades. The biggest issue today is that if you're going to ask people to spend insane money to attend, then you need to offer a product unlike anything else anyone else can produce; you need to transport people to a place and state of mind they can't find anywhere else, you need to have the "Disney Difference" that used to be such a big deal. But unfortunately, since Iger took the reins and since the "Post-Potter Reaction" era, Disney, to me at least, has lost sight of what makes a theme park really tick, and instead has been trying too hard to match the Potterverse stuff by aping the IP land style.
Yeah, I know, "IP bad" is the most lukewarm of takes right now, but I genuinely think it's an approach with diminishing returns; at both Disney and Universal, we've seen big IP lands open in recent years, trigger big attendance boosts for a year or two, then seen numbers dip again. And while people will still clamor to see their favorite characters everywhere, I'm beginning to think they're subconsciously realizing that "let's shoehorn this movie into this space" does a lot to undo the cohesion and, yes, theming of a park, and it's leading to people no longer feeling whisked away by a large, consistent space that manages to not just give you a quick thrill, but feel like an environment you want to spend a lot of time in, and are willing to pay good money to do so.
I think the feeling jumped out at me while walking in Studios the other day and seeing the "transition", such as it is, between Galaxy's Edge and Toy Story Land. Like...what are we doing here? What's the theme of this park? What am I supposed to be immersed in? Once you make me lose sight of that, I start focusing instead on just how many gift shops there are, how often I feel like something is aiming for my wallet, that sort of thing, whereas in old Disney I'd be more likely to just happily pay for whatever because, hey, no other place like it, right? And I'm not even getting into how many 10+ minute attractions we've lost for 2-3 minute ones that just dump you into another shop...holy smokes, I really don't have much good to say about Remy's Adventure in EPCOT, though at least that wasn't a replacement.
I'm not saying the feeling doesn't exist anywhere in Disney anymore, but it's mostly concentrated in the older Imagineered spaces; old school MK, World Showcase, front half of Studios, the fleshed out parts of AK, etc. And hey, at least some of the IP lands are trying; you can tell the effort that went into something like Pandora, even if I think it's just so-so as an experience.
But end of the day, people will become repeat visitors because they're being transported somewhere physically, mentally, and emotionally. You can grab their attention with "here's that familiar movie/character you know!", but it's the spatial experience that creates an indelible mark, and in the chase to keep up with Potter, I feel like current Disney's lost the plot and just expects people to keep ponying up more and more to hit up their favorite rides, which can work...but only up to a point.
I grew up getting to go to WDW almost every year, first with my family and then as part of the class trips my parents would chaperone for the high school they worked at. I get to do that latter thing now, and it means getting to go to Disney for next to nothing, given how the price structures go for group/school trips. When that's the case? I can't complain much about Lightning Lanes and food prices or whatever. But I also know that, despite being a lifelong fan with a massive amount of nostalgia for the parks (I'm pushing 40 now), it's not a trip I'm looking to do that frequently anymore unless I'm getting that kind of discount. Maybe a trip for a couple days at Food and Wine with my girlfriend at some point, but not a ton else.
It hurts to say, because there's still tons I love about visiting: I love going through the classics in MK, I'm a lifelong EPCOT nerd, adore AK's theming, I even still get a big kick out of the front half of Studios. But for one, there's not enough to fully justify the costs involved anymore; I did a couple trips, just the girlfriend and I, about 10 years ago where we made it for a decent stay at soundly under $1000 a person, and that feels like a pipe dream now. I also feel like the food situation's gotten weird; while I'm sure some of it is the nostalgia speaking, I do think there's a notable difference in quality between the old "in-house" prepared food versus today's contracted stuff.
But that's not even the biggest part to me; trips to Disney have always been expensive, that's a joke that runs back decades. The biggest issue today is that if you're going to ask people to spend insane money to attend, then you need to offer a product unlike anything else anyone else can produce; you need to transport people to a place and state of mind they can't find anywhere else, you need to have the "Disney Difference" that used to be such a big deal. But unfortunately, since Iger took the reins and since the "Post-Potter Reaction" era, Disney, to me at least, has lost sight of what makes a theme park really tick, and instead has been trying too hard to match the Potterverse stuff by aping the IP land style.
Yeah, I know, "IP bad" is the most lukewarm of takes right now, but I genuinely think it's an approach with diminishing returns; at both Disney and Universal, we've seen big IP lands open in recent years, trigger big attendance boosts for a year or two, then seen numbers dip again. And while people will still clamor to see their favorite characters everywhere, I'm beginning to think they're subconsciously realizing that "let's shoehorn this movie into this space" does a lot to undo the cohesion and, yes, theming of a park, and it's leading to people no longer feeling whisked away by a large, consistent space that manages to not just give you a quick thrill, but feel like an environment you want to spend a lot of time in, and are willing to pay good money to do so.
I think the feeling jumped out at me while walking in Studios the other day and seeing the "transition", such as it is, between Galaxy's Edge and Toy Story Land. Like...what are we doing here? What's the theme of this park? What am I supposed to be immersed in? Once you make me lose sight of that, I start focusing instead on just how many gift shops there are, how often I feel like something is aiming for my wallet, that sort of thing, whereas in old Disney I'd be more likely to just happily pay for whatever because, hey, no other place like it, right? And I'm not even getting into how many 10+ minute attractions we've lost for 2-3 minute ones that just dump you into another shop...holy smokes, I really don't have much good to say about Remy's Adventure in EPCOT, though at least that wasn't a replacement.
I'm not saying the feeling doesn't exist anywhere in Disney anymore, but it's mostly concentrated in the older Imagineered spaces; old school MK, World Showcase, front half of Studios, the fleshed out parts of AK, etc. And hey, at least some of the IP lands are trying; you can tell the effort that went into something like Pandora, even if I think it's just so-so as an experience.
But end of the day, people will become repeat visitors because they're being transported somewhere physically, mentally, and emotionally. You can grab their attention with "here's that familiar movie/character you know!", but it's the spatial experience that creates an indelible mark, and in the chase to keep up with Potter, I feel like current Disney's lost the plot and just expects people to keep ponying up more and more to hit up their favorite rides, which can work...but only up to a point.
Last edited:
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
Yup. My first visit was in 1972, my last was a couple months ago and there have been many, many trips in between. I grew up with WDW, then took my son there until he grew out of it, now I go childless which is also pretty cool.
But believe it or not, I'm much more into the rides LOL - I'm still just a big ol' kid and will get on RnRC three or four times in a row if possible, and am drawn to the technology involved in the new stuff (trackless vehicles, etc). I'm the one you see getting off one ride and rushing to the next until I'm finished and headed to the next park to do the same. I don't sit down and I'm really not a big fan of Food and Wine or the flower fest stuff - to me it's just an opportunity to overpay for Sam's Club samples
flynnibus
Premium Member
What does that have to do with citing AP rates?
Because AP discounts are usually something people seek AFTER they already have an AP. It's more of a travel hack to 'buy an AP to get a hotel discount for your trip' - not the norm. Again, AP discounts are very focused.
So... you're talking about a small percentage of customers legitimately scamming the system... when talking about normal price shopping? Come on dude...
Next you're gonna advocate we should be rolling in cash back offers, and credit card point hacks when justifying a cited price for broad comparisons.
Get real
flynnibus
Premium Member
So is food... Neither are part of the discussion of 'what does the hotel room cost'
And you don't look at such discounts when broadly discussing the pricing - which is why all targeted discounts are disingenuous in this discussion. Good job on defeating your own argument.
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
Yup, let's throw food costs in there as well, because the cost of the hotel is only one component of the trip. In the end you add them all up and it's called (wait for it.......) the final bill.
Good job trying to convince everyone that nobody looks for the best prices when planning an expensive vacation. And should they, do they use some rather elaborate strategies to leverage discounts? Naw, a simple Google search would show there's hardly any information available on how to do that, right? Everyone pays rack rate LOL.
You previously called it "cherry picking" - and to be honest, if you aren't doing that for the when, where, and how of every vacation you plan, you're spending too much.
Last edited:
Dranth
Well-Known Member
If the general public does not align with people that actually go then maybe that is true, but in terms of the folks that actually show up, that percentage is shifted significantly towards Disney.
flynnibus
Premium Member
We call this 'moving the goal posts'
The point in contention was the cited hotel comparison - nothing more.
No, it's called 'prevailing rate' - when making broad comparisons you make FAIR assessments and cites. Not corner cases that are real - but not generally applicable.
I can't believe I'm having to spell this out to grown men.
Laketravis
Well-Known Member
The point in contention is that WDW is getting to expensive. Hotel comparisons are simply one example. You contest that because the lowest rate cited requires an AP and refuse to further consider that the savings continue if you incorporate the AP into the cost analysis. It's multi dimensional.
Semantics. Like saying the "typical" guest pays full price. Generally applicable? You can make an AP generally applicable by simply buying one. Baby steps........
Me neither.
Jrb1979
Well-Known Member
I didn't mean it literally that it's 50/50. It does skew more towards Disney. My point is that there is more people that do week long vacations at Universal than many here think.
Dranth
Well-Known Member
The problem with unlike comparisons is that they reflect nothing other than your particular situation.
With how we do our trips, technically I can stay at a Disney deluxe for 10 days including tickets for less money than I can stay at any Universal Signature hotel for five days without tickets. Great for me, useless for most people.
MickeyLuv'r
Well-Known Member
Oh, there's a good deal of cognitive dissonance in this forum, and I daresay more broadly.
(I once had a funny discussion with a family member who complained about the fresh baked bread they were served in Italy. Italy of all places, because the bread wasn't "square, like Wonderbread."
)I came to this forum over 20 years ago to find news of WDW/Universal discounts. I bought my first Universal AP in that same time frame. On my way out of Islands, Universal had big signs advertising that tickets could be converted to AP's. (still do, I think) So I asked, and - back then- it cost me less than $5. It was a no-brainer, IMO. I renewed for years, because the renewal price was the same as a regular park ticket. (+ all the discounts)
Simply, Universal has long had a different marketing approach than WDW when it comes to AP's. Where Universal prominently makes offers like AP Appreciation Night and bonus extensions on renewals, WDW AP holders are lucky to get a crappy magnet as their incentive.
Universal is prominently advertising AP pricing on the page where they sell Epic tickets, and everyone can see the hotel discounts. It is a different from WDW, where they hide the AP hotel rate from non-AP holders and stopped selling AP's to even DVC.
Mind, I'm not taking this discussion all that seriously, I'm just pushing back a bit, because Universal more actively courts AP sales than WDW does.
$300 each last February when we upgraded two 5-day hoppers to Sorcerer's Passes (since we had another trip planned later that year, post-cruise, with friends). However, your point stands because the non-resident, non-DVC AP would have tacked another $600 on to that price.
"You, sir, are an UNDESIRABLE!!! Begone, so we can sell your room to families from Denver who will buy park tickets and spend more money than you!"