World Of Color Refurbishment

D.Silentu

Well-Known Member
@TP2000, thank you for this excellent report! It's encouraging to hear that rider capacity is once again being factored into new attraction design. I always amused myself with the thought that Radiator Springs Racers was designed with a low capacity to keep guests occupied in a park with little to do. However, I fervently hope that the Spiderman concept, with the pendulous ride system, makes the cut. That means of conveyance is a truly unique ride system, ideal for the ride's subject, and it would be a shame to lose it. Finally, once more I have to admit that I'm sorry to hear about the Mickey ride going into Toontown. Toontown's day has passed and there are so many opportunities that redefining that space could present.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
@TP2000, thank you for this excellent report! It's encouraging to hear that rider capacity is once again being factored into new ride design. I always amused myself with the thought that Radiator Springs Racers was designed with a low capacity to keep guests occupied in a park with little to do. However, I fervently hope that the Spiderman concept, with the pendulous ride system, makes the cut. That means of conveyance is a truly unique ride ride system and ideal for the ride's subject, so it would be a shame to lose it. Finally, once more I have to express that I'm sorry to hear about the Mickey ride going into Toontown. Toontown's day has passed and there are so many opportunities that redefining that space could present.

I'm with you on Spider-Man, that needs to go in and stay with that ride system.

On Mickey though, what better place than TT. I know people speculated HwL, including myself. But a revitalized TT anchored with Mickey ride might be the shot they need to keep the place fresh.
 

D.Silentu

Well-Known Member
You've got me there. I think the ride looks fun in spite of my disdain for the new Mickey cartoons. As to where it should go, I really can't say. Yet, we all know that Disneyland is running out of room, reiterated by TP2000's conversation. Based on my last trip to Toontown the land seems expendable, justifying it's relevance with only one decent attraction and a meet and greet.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
You've got me there. I think the ride looks fun in spite of my disdain for the new Mickey cartoons. As to where it should go, I really can't say. Yet, we all know that Disneyland is running out of room, reiterated by TP2000's conversation. Based on my last trip to Toontown the land seems expendable, justifying it's relevance with only one decent attraction and a meet and greet.

TT just makes sense, especially with the news of them looking to push more north. That indicates that a large scale redo of TT would go along with the new Mickey ride. Now my question will be how they will handle the firework situation, but that is another discussion for another thread.
 

SSG

Well-Known Member
Top notch info @TP2000

200w.webp
 
D

Deleted member 107043

You rang? I'm back from my weekly trip to OSH, I keep putting off my fruit tree maintenance, and it's still several hours away from cocktail time, but because I like you all I'll do this sober...

Recently we had a nice long catch up session on the patio over several drinks and a charcuterie thing I threw together. The conversation landed on the political climate in Anaheim, the recent Bernie Sanders visit, the $18 minimum wage referendum, etc. and how it can all impact future development in Anaheim. She agreed that any future major development announcements are on hold until at least after the November election. She said things between TDA and Anaheim government are very, very tense. No one is talking, which is a complete 180 degree environment from the previous six decades when things were always very chummy, even after political ethics laws took effect in the late 1970's and the infamous trips to Catalina and such ended. She said that even the early 1990's when Eisner floated the idea of DisneySea in Long Beach and Anaheim got grumpy about it is nothing compared to the current Cold War. There are a few city councilmen that are still friendly with Disney execs, but Mayor Tait is openly hostile and he has the power to direct civic department heads to cease and desist with anything that could make life easier for Disneyland.

But for the past couple years there have been two major projects designed for post-Star Wars that had moved through the pipeline at WDI and been favored by TDA (first Colglazier, but then D'Amaro questioned some of it). They both involve pushing the existing park boundaries outward, creating more park acreage and more capacity. And it's the capacity thing that killed one of them.

1.) The first project is an expansion of Mickey's Toontown, to add the Mickey & Minnie Runaway Railway ride to Disneyland. There are two buildings directly north of Toontown that would be demolished to achieve this, both used by the entertainment department to house offices, rehearsal halls, CM uniform issuing, and locker rooms. Those functions in those buildings would be moved off-site and/or into a new basement level, while the Mickey & Minnie railway ride would sit in a new ride warehouse directly north of Toontown. Toontown would be redone with a new aesthetic that matches the ride aesthetic and the entry to the new Runaway Railway thing. That project is still ready to go, once the political climate changes in Anaheim and Disneyland feels more confident about the future.

Any future Fantasyland expansion would be south of the railroad tracks, in the areas currently under-utilized by the Fantasyland Theater, Motorboat Cruise, etc. Although there is still an expansion pad left between Millenium Falcon ride and Fantasyland Theater/Toontown. The hot topic now in TDA is "capacity", and Disneyland needs more. She also said those unofficially official TEA reports were laughably inaccurate, especially for DHS and DAK at WDW, and that Disneyland pushes 20 Million and DCA has been in the low teen millions per year for four years now. Both parks need more rider capacity.

2.) The second big project is Marvel Land, obviously. The neighbor lady doesn't know I was a longtime reader of Al Lutz, but she told me about the big E Ticket coaster concept that Miceage and other insiders here have mentioned for the past few years. I played along. That Avengers themed coaster concept has been killed by TDA because WDI could not get the rider capacity on it up to an acceptable level.

She explained there has been a sea change within TDA regarding the willingness to put up with creative ideas from WDI that were pretty to look at but had unacceptably low rider capacity. She sited Cars Land and Radiator Racers as costing a fortune, but having much lower rider capacity as the big E Tickets of the 20th century like Pirates, Mansion, Big Thunder, etc. She said if Richard Nunis and the pre-Pressler group were still in charge of Disneyland, they never would have allowed WDI to build these big expensive E Tickets with such pitiful daily capacity numbers. (She also mentioned an old exec with the surname "Cora" or "Korra" who was always a stickler for high capacity offerings, and Pressler fired him 20 years ago for being old-fashioned) She said Star Wars rides won't have good capacity either, but it was too late for those and execs are now getting worried about how Star Wars rides will cope day after day, month after month, year after year.

For whatever reason, the industrial engineering department and some others in TDA have convinced the new TDA Prez D'amaro to wake up to the fact that WDI keeps designing these big fancy rides that are pretty and cost a fortune but have pitifully low capacity. The Marvel Avengers coaster was the worst example of this, and it has now been cancelled and WDI was sent back to the drawing board to come up with something that can deal with the giant crowds that Disneyland draws. Because the big Avengers coaster was cancelled, Marvel Land is now back at square one and the land is on hold and will take at least a year to get moving again. It will still have a E Ticket thrill ride of some kind, but WDI is looking for a suitably high capacity ride system to use and then build a story around. She doubts Flik's Fun Fair will close this September since now there's no reason to with the coaster sent back to the drawing board, although they still want to move Flik's Flyers over to Pixar Pier.

Pixar Pier will open this weekend, the Indredicoaster is ready to go and supposedly a nice improvement over the minimally themed Screamin', but they are going to have to open the Pier in a state of semi-readiness and some of the snack bars and gift shops won't be completely done. Expect to see continuing detail work on Pixar Pier into July before it finally gets completed to the state it was supposed to be on June 23rd.

Now I feel like someone owes me a glass of something. And don't tell the neighbor lady.

So TL;DR Disney doesn't give a about Anaheim.
 

britain

Well-Known Member
You rang? I'm back from my weekly trip to OSH, I keep putting off my fruit tree maintenance, and it's still several hours away from cocktail time, but because I like you all I'll do this sober...

Recently we had a nice long catch up session on the patio over several drinks and a charcuterie thing I threw together. The conversation landed on the political climate in Anaheim, the recent Bernie Sanders visit, the $18 minimum wage referendum, etc. and how it can all impact future development in Anaheim. She agreed that any future major development announcements are on hold until at least after the November election. She said things between TDA and Anaheim government are very, very tense. No one is talking, which is a complete 180 degree environment from the previous six decades when things were always very chummy, even after political ethics laws took effect in the late 1970's and the infamous trips to Catalina and such ended. She said that even the early 1990's when Eisner floated the idea of DisneySea in Long Beach and Anaheim got grumpy about it is nothing compared to the current Cold War. There are a few city councilmen that are still friendly with Disney execs, but Mayor Tait is openly hostile and he has the power to direct civic department heads to cease and desist with anything that could make life easier for Disneyland.

But for the past couple years there have been two major projects designed for post-Star Wars that had moved through the pipeline at WDI and been favored by TDA (first Colglazier, but then D'Amaro questioned some of it). They both involve pushing the existing park boundaries outward, creating more park acreage and more capacity. And it's the capacity thing that killed one of them.

1.) The first project is an expansion of Mickey's Toontown, to add the Mickey & Minnie Runaway Railway ride to Disneyland. There are two buildings directly north of Toontown that would be demolished to achieve this, both used by the entertainment department to house offices, rehearsal halls, CM uniform issuing, and locker rooms. Those functions in those buildings would be moved off-site and/or into a new basement level, while the Mickey & Minnie railway ride would sit in a new ride warehouse directly north of Toontown. Toontown would be redone with a new aesthetic that matches the ride aesthetic and the entry to the new Runaway Railway thing. That project is still ready to go, once the political climate changes in Anaheim and Disneyland feels more confident about the future.

Any future Fantasyland expansion would be south of the railroad tracks, in the areas currently under-utilized by the Fantasyland Theater, Motorboat Cruise, etc. Although there is still an expansion pad left between Millenium Falcon ride and Fantasyland Theater/Toontown. The hot topic now in TDA is "capacity", and Disneyland needs more. She also said those unofficially official TEA reports were laughably inaccurate, especially for DHS and DAK at WDW, and that Disneyland pushes 20 Million and DCA has been in the low teen millions per year for four years now. Both parks need more rider capacity.

2.) The second big project is Marvel Land, obviously. The neighbor lady doesn't know I was a longtime reader of Al Lutz, but she told me about the big E Ticket coaster concept that Miceage and other insiders here have mentioned for the past few years. I played along. That Avengers themed coaster concept has been killed by TDA because WDI could not get the rider capacity on it up to an acceptable level.

She explained there has been a sea change within TDA regarding the willingness to put up with creative ideas from WDI that were pretty to look at but had unacceptably low rider capacity. She sited Cars Land and Radiator Racers as costing a fortune, but having much lower rider capacity as the big E Tickets of the 20th century like Pirates, Mansion, Big Thunder, etc. She said if Richard Nunis and the pre-Pressler group were still in charge of Disneyland, they never would have allowed WDI to build these big expensive E Tickets with such pitiful daily capacity numbers. (She also mentioned an old exec with the surname "Cora" or "Korra" who was always a stickler for high capacity offerings, and Pressler fired him 20 years ago for being old-fashioned) She said Star Wars rides won't have good capacity either, but it was too late for those and execs are now getting worried about how Star Wars rides will cope day after day, month after month, year after year.

For whatever reason, the industrial engineering department and some others in TDA have convinced the new TDA Prez D'amaro to wake up to the fact that WDI keeps designing these big fancy rides that are pretty and cost a fortune but have pitifully low capacity. The Marvel Avengers coaster was the worst example of this, and it has now been cancelled and WDI was sent back to the drawing board to come up with something that can deal with the giant crowds that Disneyland draws. Because the big Avengers coaster was cancelled, Marvel Land is now back at square one and the land is on hold and will take at least a year to get moving again. It will still have a E Ticket thrill ride of some kind, but WDI is looking for a suitably high capacity ride system to use and then build a story around. She doubts Flik's Fun Fair will close this September since now there's no reason to with the coaster sent back to the drawing board, although they still want to move Flik's Flyers over to Pixar Pier.

Pixar Pier will open this weekend, the Indredicoaster is ready to go and supposedly a nice improvement over the minimally themed Screamin', but they are going to have to open the Pier in a state of semi-readiness and some of the snack bars and gift shops won't be completely done. Expect to see continuing detail work on Pixar Pier into July before it finally gets completed to the state it was supposed to be on June 23rd.

Now I feel like someone owes me a glass of something. And don't tell the neighbor lady.

I know you played along like you don’t read Al Lutz, but I’m having a hard time understanding the timeline here. Didn’t Miceage report like 3 years ago that WDI wanted a Marvel coaster for DCA, but it was shot down for being low capacity, sending WDI back to the drawing board?

Are you saying that happened AGAIN or was she just repeating something we already knew?
 

Nland316

Well-Known Member
I actually really am into the idea of revamping TT separately from Fantasyland. It’d be really cool if they could even go all out and enclose the land. Regardless, I’m hoping Roger Rabbit survives, and possibly even upgraded with effects ala Alice.
 
Last edited:

Stevek

Well-Known Member
You rang? I'm back from my weekly trip to OSH, I keep putting off my fruit tree maintenance, and it's still several hours away from cocktail time, but because I like you all I'll do this sober...

Recently we had a nice long catch up session on the patio over several drinks and a charcuterie thing I threw together. The conversation landed on the political climate in Anaheim, the recent Bernie Sanders visit, the $18 minimum wage referendum, etc. and how it can all impact future development in Anaheim. She agreed that any future major development announcements are on hold until at least after the November election. She said things between TDA and Anaheim government are very, very tense. No one is talking, which is a complete 180 degree environment from the previous six decades when things were always very chummy, even after political ethics laws took effect in the late 1970's and the infamous trips to Catalina and such ended. She said that even the early 1990's when Eisner floated the idea of DisneySea in Long Beach and Anaheim got grumpy about it is nothing compared to the current Cold War. There are a few city councilmen that are still friendly with Disney execs, but Mayor Tait is openly hostile and he has the power to direct civic department heads to cease and desist with anything that could make life easier for Disneyland.

But for the past couple years there have been two major projects designed for post-Star Wars that had moved through the pipeline at WDI and been favored by TDA (first Colglazier, but then D'Amaro questioned some of it). They both involve pushing the existing park boundaries outward, creating more park acreage and more capacity. And it's the capacity thing that killed one of them.

1.) The first project is an expansion of Mickey's Toontown, to add the Mickey & Minnie Runaway Railway ride to Disneyland. There are two buildings directly north of Toontown that would be demolished to achieve this, both used by the entertainment department to house offices, rehearsal halls, CM uniform issuing, and locker rooms. Those functions in those buildings would be moved off-site and/or into a new basement level, while the Mickey & Minnie railway ride would sit in a new ride warehouse directly north of Toontown. Toontown would be redone with a new aesthetic that matches the ride aesthetic and the entry to the new Runaway Railway thing. That project is still ready to go, once the political climate changes in Anaheim and Disneyland feels more confident about the future.

Any future Fantasyland expansion would be south of the railroad tracks, in the areas currently under-utilized by the Fantasyland Theater, Motorboat Cruise, etc. Although there is still an expansion pad left between Millenium Falcon ride and Fantasyland Theater/Toontown. The hot topic now in TDA is "capacity", and Disneyland needs more. She also said those unofficially official TEA reports were laughably inaccurate, especially for DHS and DAK at WDW, and that Disneyland pushes 20 Million and DCA has been in the low teen millions per year for four years now. Both parks need more rider capacity.

2.) The second big project is Marvel Land, obviously. The neighbor lady doesn't know I was a longtime reader of Al Lutz, but she told me about the big E Ticket coaster concept that Miceage and other insiders here have mentioned for the past few years. I played along. That Avengers themed coaster concept has been killed by TDA because WDI could not get the rider capacity on it up to an acceptable level.

She explained there has been a sea change within TDA regarding the willingness to put up with creative ideas from WDI that were pretty to look at but had unacceptably low rider capacity. She sited Cars Land and Radiator Racers as costing a fortune, but having much lower rider capacity as the big E Tickets of the 20th century like Pirates, Mansion, Big Thunder, etc. She said if Richard Nunis and the pre-Pressler group were still in charge of Disneyland, they never would have allowed WDI to build these big expensive E Tickets with such pitiful daily capacity numbers. (She also mentioned an old exec with the surname "Cora" or "Korra" who was always a stickler for high capacity offerings, and Pressler fired him 20 years ago for being old-fashioned) She said Star Wars rides won't have good capacity either, but it was too late for those and execs are now getting worried about how Star Wars rides will cope day after day, month after month, year after year.

For whatever reason, the industrial engineering department and some others in TDA have convinced the new TDA Prez D'amaro to wake up to the fact that WDI keeps designing these big fancy rides that are pretty and cost a fortune but have pitifully low capacity. The Marvel Avengers coaster was the worst example of this, and it has now been cancelled and WDI was sent back to the drawing board to come up with something that can deal with the giant crowds that Disneyland draws. Because the big Avengers coaster was cancelled, Marvel Land is now back at square one and the land is on hold and will take at least a year to get moving again. It will still have a E Ticket thrill ride of some kind, but WDI is looking for a suitably high capacity ride system to use and then build a story around. She doubts Flik's Fun Fair will close this September since now there's no reason to with the coaster sent back to the drawing board, although they still want to move Flik's Flyers over to Pixar Pier.

Pixar Pier will open this weekend, the Indredicoaster is ready to go and supposedly a nice improvement over the minimally themed Screamin', but they are going to have to open the Pier in a state of semi-readiness and some of the snack bars and gift shops won't be completely done. Expect to see continuing detail work on Pixar Pier into July before it finally gets completed to the state it was supposed to be on June 23rd.

Now I feel like someone owes me a glass of something. And don't tell the neighbor lady.
Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing.

Great to hear about Mickey going in to Toontown and the desire to expand FL into the areas mentioned. I really do think that DL still needs a live show venue so if the FL theater goes away, that's a bit of a loss in my book. Will be interesting to see exactly where the rehearsal facilities get moved to though being offsite isn't really a big deal is it? Very happy to hear that folks are waking up to the WDI issues and not putting up with low capacity. While I really could care less about Marvel and would love something original and cool (like a Pirates/MH/BTM) type attraction, that ship has pretty much sailed so I hope that whatever Marvel IP they attach to this, they just do a great job that more folks can experience i.e. more capacity.

In case anyone hasn't mentioned it, I think the old exec is probably Jim Cora.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Fantastic post. Thanks for sharing.

Great to hear about Mickey going in to Toontown and the desire to expand FL into the areas mentioned. I really do think that DL still needs a live show venue so if the FL theater goes away, that's a bit of a loss in my book. Will be interesting to see exactly where the rehearsal facilities get moved to though being offsite isn't really a big deal is it? Very happy to hear that folks are waking up to the WDI issues and not putting up with low capacity. While I really could care less about Marvel and would love something original and cool (like a Pirates/MH/BTM) type attraction, that ship has pretty much sailed so I hope that whatever Marvel IP they attach to this, they just do a great job that more folks can experience i.e. more capacity.

In case anyone hasn't mentioned it, I think the old exec is probably Jim Cora.

BTW, just so you know the Marvel IP associated with DLR is going to be Spider-Man and Avengers.
 

TP2000

Well-Known Member
I know you played along like you don’t read Al Lutz, but I’m having a hard time understanding the timeline here. Didn’t Miceage report like 3 years ago that WDI wanted a Marvel coaster for DCA, but it was shot down for being low capacity, sending WDI back to the drawing board?

Are you saying that happened AGAIN or was she just repeating something we already knew?

The way she phrased it was that the Avengers E Ticket coaster was very recently canned, as in within the last 60 days. Your post jogged my memory and I do remember Mr. Lutz saying the first version was canned several years ago, but whatever they went back to the drawing board to fix was canned a second time very recently. That seems to have put the entire concept of Marvel Land on ice.

I imagine there are also quite a few scenarios that depend on land use that requires the City of Anaheim to play along, like the big expansion into the bus loading zones north of Hollywoodland that Miceage had talked about two years ago. She and I didn't discuss that, but I can see that also being a big part of this ongoing struggle to expand Marvel into DCA somewhere and somehow.

BTW, just so you know the Marvel IP associated with DLR is going to be Spider-Man and Avengers.

Good to know. I imagine Spider-Man is the theme for that spinner in the Bugs theater insiders here had been telling us about? I don't know if that's still a go, as we just sort of talked about the Avengers coaster and Marvel Land as an expansion project behind Mission Breakout.

In case anyone hasn't mentioned it, I think the old exec is probably Jim Cora.

Ah, okay. She just used the surname "Cora" in conversation, but I wasn't sure how it was spelled. Apparently he was a real old-school kind of a guy brought up in theme park operations in the Walt era. He and Pressler clashed immediately, and Pressler fired him once DCA was basically off the drawing boards. Mr. Cora hated the DCA concept, and she said Mr. Cora never would have allowed low capacity E Tickets like Radiator Racers or the two Star Wars rides to be approved for Disneyland consumption. He was quite a legend, apparently, at least to CM's of her generation.
 

Disney Irish

Premium Member
Good to know. I imagine Spider-Man is the theme for that spinner in the Bugs theater insiders here had been telling us about? I don't know if that's still a go, as we just sort of talked about the Avengers coaster and Marvel Land as an expansion project behind Mission Breakout.

Spider-Man spinner? While the Bugs theater is the rumored spot, the assumption was some sort of dark ride using the pendulum ride mechanics show here:

smpatent-3.jpg
 

Stevek

Well-Known Member
Ah, okay. She just used the surname "Cora" in conversation, but I wasn't sure how it was spelled. Apparently he was a real old-school kind of a guy brought up in theme park operations in the Walt era. He and Pressler clashed immediately, and Pressler fired him once DCA was basically off the drawing boards. Mr. Cora hated the DCA concept, and she said Mr. Cora never would have allowed low capacity E Tickets like Radiator Racers or the two Star Wars rides to be approved for Disneyland consumption. He was quite a legend, apparently, at least to CM's of her generation.

https://d23.com/walt-disney-legend/james-cora/

Started working at Disneyland in 1957. He's a Disney legend and "retired" in 2001. Pressler sucks, well, everything.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
She said Star Wars rides won't have good capacity either, but it was too late for those and execs are now getting worried about how Star Wars rides will cope day after day, month after month, year after year.

Excellent post! But this is what stands out the most to me- low capacity rides in the most ambitious and most innovative Disneyland land ever is a huge problem.
 

Curious Constance

Well-Known Member
The way she phrased it was that the Avengers E Ticket coaster was very recently canned, as in within the last 60 days. Your post jogged my memory and I do remember Mr. Lutz saying the first version was canned several years ago, but whatever they went back to the drawing board to fix was canned a second time very recently. That seems to have put the entire concept of Marvel Land on ice.

I imagine there are also quite a few scenarios that depend on land use that requires the City of Anaheim to play along, like the big expansion into the bus loading zones north of Hollywoodland that Miceage had talked about two years ago. She and I didn't discuss that, but I can see that also being a big part of this ongoing struggle to expand Marvel into DCA somewhere and somehow.



Good to know. I imagine Spider-Man is the theme for that spinner in the Bugs theater insiders here had been telling us about? I don't know if that's still a go, as we just sort of talked about the Avengers coaster and Marvel Land as an expansion project behind Mission Breakout.



Ah, okay. She just used the surname "Cora" in conversation, but I wasn't sure how it was spelled. Apparently he was a real old-school kind of a guy brought up in theme park operations in the Walt era. He and Pressler clashed immediately, and Pressler fired him once DCA was basically off the drawing boards. Mr. Cora hated the DCA concept, and she said Mr. Cora never would have allowed low capacity E Tickets like Radiator Racers or the two Star Wars rides to be approved for Disneyland consumption. He was quite a legend, apparently, at least to CM's of her generation.

When you're sitting there talking to this lovely women, do you have to hold back your excitement and desire to throw rapid fire questions at her the whole time?
 

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