Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[Deleted member 107043]

Obviously Disney doesn't own any of those things and we are talking about what they currently own

You're right. How about this: Disney owns a lucrative sports network called ESPN and video sports bar under the same brand. So I would not embrace an ESPN themed land inside Disneyland as it would not meet the very broad yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy themes established for the park when Walt Disney built the place. Using that yardstick the SW IP fits nicely in the park as evidenced by the very popular Star Wars E ticket that's been operating in the park for nearly half of DL's history.

Your previous statement is that if it's popular, family friendly, and owned by Disney, it automatically belongs period end of discussion. Meaning that Star Wars can not only be included but included in any fashion. Frozen can be used in Frontier land because it's popular and family friendly and popular. That fits the criteria of your previous statement.

I never said or implied that I'm comfortable with Disney placing characters and stories in random areas of the park where they might be misaligned with the theme.

Now you say something different. SWL fits philosophically. But How?

How? I spelled it out very clearly in my response to you.

 

[spacemt354]

You're right. How about this: Disney owns a lucrative sports network called ESPN and video sports bar under the same brand. So I would not embrace an ESPN themed land inside Disneyland as it would not meet the very broad yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy themes established for the park when Walt Disney built the place. Using that yardstick the SW IP fits nicely in the park as evidenced by the very popular Star Wars E ticket that's been operating in the park for nearly half of DL's history.



I never said or implied that I'm comfortable with Disney placing characters and stories in random areas of the park where they might be misaligned with the theme.



How? I spelled it out very clearly in my response to you.

Taking a step back, the issue really isn't about Star Wars, the IP itself. It's fair to say that most people agree that the IP itself fits with the yesterday, tomorrow, and fantasy theme. Especially since it's already in the park.

However, like all of Disneyland, it is in a land (Tomorrowland) where the attractions don't just have to be Star Wars to fit the theme of Tomorrowland. With a 14 acre Star Wars Land -- all attractions and inclusions within the land need to be Star Wars themed, or else it will break your rule of placing characters in random areas of the park, breaking the theme.

It's placement is also a matter of concern in that it took one of the final large expansion areas without removal of attractions, and made it about one specific franchise. It's a missed opportunity to have something that they can continually build upon, like a Discovery Bay, or another Americana inspired area like Frontierland or New Orleans Square. Something where two different attractions, like Pirates and Haunted Mansion, can co-exist together. If you made a Pirates themed land out of New Orleans Square, then Haunted Mansion doesn't fit. Same as if you made New Orleans Square entirely themed around Haunted plantation mansions, Pirates wouldn't fit.

So that's really what it boils down to for me, thinking on it. Of course as a Star Wars fan, I'm excited for these (what appear to be) incredible attractions. However, it's tough to get past the fact that this could have been something original, and not what feels like a forced fed popular IP land. That and also the success of this project might influence future projects to go in this direction. Not every land needs to be about one franchise to be successful.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

It's not about being right, I can understand both sides if there's a level of compatibility between viewpoints, and not the I'm right and you're wrong attitude that others seem to have.

But this doesn't really answer my question which is more geared towards the thematic elements of SWL behind Frontierland in a Magic Kingdom style park. How does it fit thematically? And if it does fit thematically, does that also mean it would have fit in the Magic Kingdom as well? Magic Kingdom is also in desperate need of an E-Ticket and added capacity. Plus, Disney has plenty of films it could use for attractions to boost DHS. So taking logistics out of the picture and just from a thematic standpoint...that's my main criticism.

While I do agree that MK could use some additional attractions and capacity, it would be absolutely horrid to place SWL there. And the reason isn't thematic at all. It's that at night when Wishes is happening, and when they eventually have another night parade, the hub and Main St area are so packed now that moving around isn't easy. Add in the many thousands of people that are visiting SWL during the day, and then staying for the fireworks at night, and you have a recipe for absolute crazy people gridlock. Not a pretty picture.

It does need more smaller B & C rides for capacity, but it really can't hold too many more, and a huge E ticket right now would kill it.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

But I'll admit that it was boring and there is probably a reason I have only rode Twain twice and Columbia once in all my years visiting DL.

And you just answered why current management decided that it could be shorter. You are probably the rule and not the exception.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

A couple other points:

- Based off new information SWL will be treated differently than the rest of the park. CM's and the whole land will essentially be a big interactive area. In essence it will treated as a separate park. This isn't unprecedented as Diagon Alley and Hogsmeade are treated differently than the rest of USO. This may not be an issue to some while it will be to others. I found it off-putting in USO that the two Harry Potter lands were essentially a completely different park than the rest of the resort. I am not saying it is a bad thing, just takes getting used to that the staff treated people different (they are part of the story) and as guests you basically acted differently in those two lands compared to the rest of the park.

You hit the nail on the head with this one. All very true.

- We don't know yet, but the scale maybe different in SWL than the rest of the park. If it is that is a problem. If not then no worries.

I am hoping that they keep the proper scale in each park. The area in DL should fit the rest of the park. I absolutely agree that if it doesn't, then that is an issue. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Travel Junkie]

What's there for me to prove? It's a series of universally popular space fantasy stories about good and evil forces suitable for a family audience that Disney OWNS and controls. Of course it fits.

This is your original statement. You clearly state the criteria of what you say fits in Disneyland.

I never said or implied that I'm comfortable with Disney placing characters and stories in random areas of the park where they might be misaligned with the theme.

Again you clearly stated of course Star Wars fits because Disney owns it. No further clarification of in what matter which leads me to believe you don't care, because past statements in various threads have clearly indicated you have little concern over breaking theme as long it is popular. That's your prerogative, but ironic since that is not typical Disney design. That is the way Universal traditionally designed their parks and yet you have clearly said you prefer Disney over Universal.

How? I spelled it out very clearly in my response to you.

No you haven't clearly spelled out how SWL fits in DL. It's fine if you don't have a set view on the matter. However a lot of people do and put themselves out there with opinions, sometimes strong ones on how they view theme park design. A sizable percentage of your posts have been ridiculing these people and calling them names. The reason I'm admittedly being a hard a$! about it is I want to see if you actually have a real opinion you are willing to put out there and be subject to scrutiny or if you would rather just lob insults at other people for their opinions.

I apologize to everyone for the thread drift and it's my last response on the subject.

 

[mickEblu]

And you just answered why current management decided that it could be shorter. You are probably the rule and not the exception.

Isn't that obvious? The point of my post was to weigh out the pros and cons of the new ROA. IMO there will be more to see but will have come at the cost of some nice atmosphere and place making. Most of us know that the river Attractions being under utilized is a reason management thought the ROA could be shortened. But let's be honest. SWL was happening either way. Even if all of the river attractions were running at full capacity all year.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Isn't that obvious? The point of my post was to weigh out the pros and cons of the new ROA. IMO there will be more to see but will have come at the cost of some nice atmosphere and place making. Most of us know that the river Attractions being under utilized is a reason management thought the ROA could be shortened. But let's be honest. SWL was happening either way. Even if all of the river attractions were running at full capacity all year.

No, we don't know that for sure. SWL at DHS was originally going to be in a different location that would've caused a very popular restaurant and attraction to be removed. TWDC recognized this, and changed the location. I know it wasn't the ONLY motivation, but it was part of it. If the ROA were constantly full with a line out the queue, they would probably have tried to move it slightly to keep that going. Since it wasn't highly populated, it was really a no-brainer for them.

 

[spacemt354]

While I do agree that MK could use some additional attractions and capacity, it would be absolutely horrid to place SWL there. And the reason isn't thematic at all. It's that at night when Wishes is happening, and when they eventually have another night parade, the hub and Main St area are so packed now that moving around isn't easy. Add in the many thousands of people that are visiting SWL during the day, and then staying for the fireworks at night, and you have a recipe for absolute crazy people gridlock. Not a pretty picture.

It does need more smaller B & C rides for capacity, but it really can't hold too many more, and a huge E ticket right now would kill it.

Disneyland is the 2nd most attended theme park in the world next to the Magic Kingdom, so if placing SWL is bad for traffic in the Magic Kingdom, why wouldn't it also be a concern in Disneyland? It's a similar layout with even more narrow paths.

 

[LuvtheGoof]

Disneyland is the 2nd most attended theme park in the world next to the Magic Kingdom, so if placing SWL is bad for traffic in the Magic Kingdom, why wouldn't it also be a concern in Disneyland? It's a similar layout with even more narrow paths.

An excellent point, and one that we all hope they considered. Not being a regular to DL (though we've been there a few times in the last few years), I don't remember the night time crowds being quite as crazy packed as MK is.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

Again you clearly stated of course Star Wars fits because Disney owns it.

That isn't all I said there to support why it fits. Not sure why you continue to stubbornly focus on that one piece of the sentence.

 

[Hatbox Ghostbuster]

An excellent point, and one that we all hope they considered. Not being a regular to DL (though we've been there a few times in the last few years), I don't remember the night time crowds being quite as crazy packed as MK is.

DL already has some of the worst "crowd flow" I've ever seen (ahem Tomorrowland Entrance ahem). While there are going to be 3 entrances, they all seem to stem from smaller bottleneck creating areas of the park. DL doesn't have the luxury of huge walkways, and now its basically trying to add three large streams into the back end of its park. We'll see how it all shakes out.

And nighttime crowds are horrendous, unless you're as far away from the Main St hub as possible.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Time for a bump. Some thoughts from Andy Castro and our very own Spirit:

https://mobile.twitter.com/21royalstreet/status/891562953769500676

Most of you won't care. You don't care about the ethos of DL and themed design. You care about that you love Star Wars and you want to pilot the Millennium Falcon and drink blue milk. I get that. Does it make you lesser human beings? Absolutely not. But don't claim to get what DL was and is supposed to be about, the principles that created it and nurtured it for six decades and spawned an industry and say that SW is a great fit for DL and I'm simply a hater of Chewie, Rey and BB-8. You absolutely can't say you understand what birthed and grew DL and think that this homage to Bob Iger's IP and ego somehow belongs or fits where it is going. And if you simply don't care, that again is fine too and doesn't make you a lesser human being. But again, don't twist and contort and spin things to get it to fit your conclusion or your definition of what DL should be. This isn't a statement about the quality of the area, which I fully expect to be terrific. It is about theming and design. Those things don't change just because you dressed up as C3PO and went Trick or Treating with Brad Johnson back in 1993.

 

[Travel Junkie]

I had to stop following Andy on Twitter since he goes way off the rails quite often. It's really a shame because he gets discounted when he makes great points like this one. He is dead on in his analysis. Toontown has a little bit of this feel but Star Wars is such a departure design wise from the rest of the park.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

Obviously.

For the record, I never wanted the blue stuff Luke's aunt made. It looked gross.

 

[shortstop]

Poor placement of SWL aside, I am curious of what you all think of the river enhancements. As in, do you think the park today (that is, EXCLUDING SWL) is better than it was two years ago?

 

[mickEblu]

Poor placement of SWL aside, I am curious of what you all think of the river enhancements. As in, do you think the park today (that is, EXCLUDING SWL) is better than it was two years ago?

Here are a few of my thoughts, posted on other threads...


I'm willing to be open minded and think long term it might end up better. But right now it doesn't feel that way. I think if there are any lands where is less is more, those would definitely be Critter Country and Frontierland. Where letting those trees go added to the theme/ ambiance. Kind of like not cleaning the dust at the Haunted Mansion.

I think if the primary purpose of theme parks are to transport you to other worlds then this is a downgrade. Previously when you were back there you really felt like you were somewhere in the wilderness and now that feeling is lost.

In addition, by losing that feeling of being in the middle of nowhere, you lose some of the variety in the park. I guess you can still kind of feel that in certain parts of TSI but with the Big Thunder Trail re do and ROA redo the park lost a lot of it. Now it's more pathways, more people and more of what you see everywhere else in the park or in your everyday life. Anyway it is what it is, I'm not saying that this is some devistating loss for me personally, as I rarely rode those river boats anyway. I think 3 times total. Just calling it like I see it.

Overall the imagineers did a great job with the parameters/ constraints given. Although those changes aren't going to make me ride the Trains or boats anymore than I did in their past iterations.
***********************************

Great to see the trains and boats running again. So the northern portion of the ROA.... yeah as of right now I prefer the old wall of trees. Sorry TP2000. Lol. Can you blame me? I used to feel like I was somewhere in the wilderness. Now I can clearly see Mickey and friends parking structure. Talk to me in 10 years when those trees grow in and I may change my mind. I was expecting the waterfalls and trestles to be a bit more majestic but they work with Disneylands scale. They re just not very impressive when you compare the rock work to Grizzly Peak across the way. The most effective area in the new ROA to me are not the waterfalls at all, it's the area where the Native American is located on the cliff right before that birds nest. Over all it looks good but from an aesthetic and even thematic perspective this is a downgrade until those trees grow in.

And below is my tribute to them. A Haunted Mansion Tombstone in their honor.


RIP Wall of Trees

(1954- 2016)

Majestic you once stood
Chopped down only to become
Some Jedi Firewood

 

[Travel Junkie]

I was expecting the waterfalls and trestles to be a bit more majestic but they work with Disneylands scale. They re just not very impressive when you compare the rock work to Grizzly Peak across the way.

My thinking is that they are designed to blend in with the larger rockwork of Star Wars behind it. I don't think we'll be able to judge the final product for a couple of years.

 

[mickEblu]

My thinking is that they are designed to blend in with the larger rockwork of Star Wars behind it. I don't think we'll be able to judge the final product for a couple of years.

I agree. Which is why I said I'm willing to wait and that in the meantime it's a downgrade. Which brings up another thought, how well the SWL rock work will work with the ROA?

 

[Deleted member 107043]

RIP Wall of Trees

(1954- 2016)

1954? I don't think you could call what was along the northern shore of the ROA on Opening Day a "wall of trees". Based on photos I've seen it was probably 10 years before it filled in properly.