Wookies, & Rebels, & Droids... OH WHY?! The Anti-SWL in Disneyland Thread

[Rich T]

I'm not the hugest Avatar/Pandora fan by any stretch here, but I really don't think it's all that difficult to see how the message conveyed in the story of Avatar applies to life here on Earth. I would argue that it has more connective tissue to the message of AK and works better as an extension to the park than Beastly Kingdom would have -- which, among many fanboys & girls, is the Discovery Bay of AK.

My (First World) problem with Avatar in AK is this: AK is(was) about Earth. About Earth's wildlife and the way humans interact with it.

Beastly Kingdom would have drawn (from what I can tell) from humanity's myths and legends--about our interpretations and fantasies about wildlife. It's still about us. It's still about Earth. It does connect to the Park's theme and fleshes it out it a clever way by working our interpretations and literature into the mix. Those myths of dragons and gryphons come from many cultures and time periods-- a shared global cultural legacy.

Pandora is about an alien world that doesn't exist that has no connection to our history and legends. It comes from the mind of one director. I'd no more vote for Pandora than I would for Tim Burtonland in AK.

 

[Mike S]

I would have voted against SW in DL, but now that it's happe

My (First World) problem with Avatar in AK is this: AK is(was) about Earth. About Earth's wildlife and the way humans interact with it.

Beastly Kingdom would have drawn (from what I can tell) from humanity's myths and legends--about our interpretations and fantasies about wildlife. It's still about us. It's still about Earth. It does connect to the Park's theme and fleshes it out it a clever way by working our interpretations and literature into the mix. Those myths of dragons and gryphons come from many cultures and time periods-- a shared global cultural legacy.

Pandora is about an alien world that doesn't exist that has no connection to our history and legends. It comes from the mind of one director. I'd no more vote for Pandora than I would for Tim Burtonland in AK.

Could you not argue that alien life and its possibilities became part of humanity's myths and legends as our knowledge of the universe expanded beyond just the Earth?

 

[spacemt354]

I would have voted against SW in DL, but now that it's happe

My (First World) problem with Avatar in AK is this: AK is(was) about Earth. About Earth's wildlife and the way humans interact with it.

Beastly Kingdom would have drawn (from what I can tell) from humanity's myths and legends--about our interpretations and fantasies about wildlife. It's still about us. It's still about Earth. It does connect to the Park's theme and fleshes it out it a clever way by working our interpretations and literature into the mix. Those myths of dragons and gryphons come from many cultures and time periods-- a shared global cultural legacy.

Pandora is about an alien world that doesn't exist that has no connection to our history and legends. It comes from the mind of one director. I'd no more vote for Pandora than I would for Tim Burtonland in AK.

The welcome address to Animal Kingdom never mentioned Earth by name.

"Welcome to a kingdom of animals... real, ancient and imagined: a kingdom ruled by lions, dinosaurs and dragons; a kingdom of balance, harmony and survival; a kingdom we enter to share in the wonder, gaze at the beauty, thrill at the drama, and learn."

The themes of balance, harmony, and survival do apply to Avatar as well as a kingdom to "share in the wonder and gaze at the beauty"

I'm not saying I don't agree with the general point that Avatar could fit better elsewhere, but as time has gone on I've warmed up to the idea, and it isn't as atrocious or deviating from Animal Kingdom as originally perceived.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

It does connect to the Park's theme and fleshes it out it a clever way by working our interpretations and literature into the mix.

How, exactly, would Beastly Kingdom have done that, and done it better than World of Avatar? Seems like a stretch to me, especially when ecological mindfulness is already baked into Avatar's folklore.

 

[DDLand]

Could you not argue that alien life and its possibilities became part of humanity's myths and legends as our knowledge of the universe expanded beyond just the Earth?

I don't want to derail this thread, but alas, these discussions are just too fun to pass up...

I promise after this, I'll try to have self control.

The narrative of Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed for us to return to nature. We embark on a journey through Oasis to get to the Tree of Life. There's no single route to get there. Some may take the direct path, others may choose to take more time on winding paths going over rivers and passing waterfalls. When we embark from the ticket area, we are going on an adventure. We are returning to where we came from. A place of harmony with nature and where we can learn from Mother Earth.

Each of the lands builds off the Discovery Island area. One has to ask why each of the lands was chosen. Why visit the Dino Institute? Why visit Asia? Why visit Africa? What are the stories that are trying to be told?

They are stories of coexistence. They teach respect for nature. They help guests understand the real stakes that are at risk here.

The Beastly Kingdomme area would have been the Earth teaching us with our own stories. The ideas of Dragons and Unicorns have been part of the human experience for thousands of years. The legends of Dragons aren't merely a European concept, but one of the entire EurAsian continent. Stories of great powerful serpents imbued with magic are even found in the Americas.

The legends of Dragons have drawn fascination and fear from audiences for millennia, and still do today.

The Earth, through this land, would have been opening the door to a realm of Dragons and Unicorns that would use the respect and fascination they hold among humanity to teach us. The audience would've been left wondering, what if there was such a place? What if there had been such a place?

Expedition Everest is an example and direct descendent of the Beastly Kingdomme concept in action. The Yeti is something that has been in human mythology for hundreds of years. It may even draw on real ancient creatures. It's something eternal.

Fear and respect of monsters and romanticizing benevolent creatures has been something that has always been part of our journey. Beastly Kingdomme would have encapsulated those emotions, and brought them to a real physical place. There would have been no time travel 150 years into the future, and advances in science (Via Alpha Centuri Expeditions!!! Coming soon!) wouldn't have been necessary. This would have the Earth using her magic to make this place real.

These beasts and creatures aren't from nowhere either. They represent man's fascination with nature and desire to understand it. They come from fear and respect.

Now AvatarLand... Or technically Pandora: World of Avatar!!!!! (I may have been using artistic liberty with the exclamation points). Some interesting notes:
1) Pandora actually has weird demented dragon things. There are weird creatures. There are even beasts! It's actually thought provoking to think of where Cameron got those from. From our shared human experience. Instead of going straight to the source (Beastly Kingdomme) they are utilizing some man's derivative work.
2) Beastly Kingdomme draws on myths and legends so ancient, that they could almost be real. Avatar comes from the mind that brought you Terminator, Terminator 2, etc. Avatar will never immerse you the way the way Beastly Kingdomme could have because his stories aren't stories that have been being told for millennia.
3) Going right along with two, Pandora is part of a brand. It doesn't belong to the world and humanity. It belongs to 20th Century and James Cameron.
4) Pandora is off Earth. Beastly Kingdomme was to be representative of man's view of what Earth might have been. The focus turns away from our shared human experience and onto outer space.
5) The Earth is supposed to be obliterated when we visit Pandora. What a shame. Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed to celebrate Earth and ensure we don't destroy it. In the Universe of Pandora, humanity has failed. Humanity is synonymous with destruction. At Disney's Animal Kingdom, humanity can lose there way, but they are believed to be inherently good. Huge difference.

Those aren't all my critiques, but some of them in a nutshell based on the Beastly Kingdomme vs. AvatarLand discussion.

There is no compare. Avatar is a shoehorning in vs. the incredible potential that could have been Beastly Kingdomme. As each new photo is released of AvatarLand, I become more and more sad about the potential that was lost.

Such a shame.

 

[Rich T]

I don't want to derail this thread, but alas, these discussions are just too fun to pass up...

I promise after this, I'll try to have self control.

The narrative of Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed for us to return to nature. We embark on a journey through Oasis to get to the Tree of Life. There's no single route to get there. Some may take the direct path, others may choose to take more time on winding paths going over rivers and passing waterfalls. When we embark from the ticket area, we are going on an adventure. We are returning to where we came from. A place of harmony with nature and where we can learn from Mother Earth.

Each of the lands builds off the Discovery Island area. One has to ask why each of the lands was chosen. Why visit the Dino Institute? Why visit Asia? Why visit Africa? What are the stories that are trying to be told?

They are stories of coexistence. They teach respect for nature. They help guests understand the real stakes that are at risk here.

The Beastly Kingdomme area would have been the Earth teaching us with our own stories. The ideas of Dragons and Unicorns have been part of the human experience for thousands of years. The legends of Dragons aren't merely a European concept, but one of the entire EurAsian continent. Stories of great powerful serpents imbued with magic are even found in the Americas.

The legends of Dragons have drawn fascination and fear from audiences for millennia, and still do today.

The Earth, through this land, would have been opening the door to a realm of Dragons and Unicorns that would use the respect and fascination they hold among humanity to teach us. The audience would've been left wondering, what if there was such a place? What if there had been such a place?

Expedition Everest is an example and direct descendent of the Beastly Kingdomme concept in action. The Yeti is something that has been in human mythology for hundreds of years. It may even draw on real ancient creatures. It's something eternal.

Fear and respect of monsters and romanticizing benevolent creatures has been something that has always been part of our journey. Beastly Kingdomme would have encapsulated those emotions, and brought them to a real physical place. There would have been no time travel 150 years into the future, and advances in science (Via Alpha Centuri Expeditions!!! Coming soon!) wouldn't have been necessary. This would have the Earth using her magic to make this place real.

These beasts and creatures aren't from nowhere either. They represent man's fascination with nature and desire to understand it. They come from fear and respect.

Now AvatarLand... Or technically Pandora: World of Avatar!!!!! (I may have been using artistic liberty with the exclamation points). Some interesting notes:
1) Pandora actually has weird demented dragon things. There are weird creatures. There are even beasts! It's actually thought provoking to think of where Cameron got those from. From our shared human experience. Instead of going straight to the source (Beastly Kingdomme) they are utilizing some man's derivative work.
2) Beastly Kingdomme draws on myths and legends so ancient, that they could almost be real. Avatar comes from the mind that brought you Terminator, Terminator 2, etc. Avatar will never immerse you the way the way Beastly Kingdomme could have because his stories aren't stories that have been being told for millennia.
3) Going right along with two, Pandora is part of a brand. It doesn't belong to the world and humanity. It belongs to 20th Century and James Cameron.
4) Pandora is off Earth. Beastly Kingdomme was to be representative of man's view of what Earth might have been. The focus turns away from our shared human experience and onto outer space.
5) The Earth is supposed to be obliterated when we visit Pandora. What a shame. Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed to celebrate Earth and ensure we don't destroy it. In the Universe of Pandora, humanity has failed. Humanity is synonymous with destruction. At Disney's Animal Kingdom, humanity can lose there way, but they are believed to be inherently good. Huge difference.

Those aren't all my critiques, but some of them in a nutshell based on the Beastly Kingdomme vs. AvatarLand discussion.

There is no compare. Avatar is a shoehorning in vs. the incredible potential that could have been Beastly Kingdomme. As each new photo is released of AvatarLand, I become more and more sad about the potential that was lost.

Such a shame.

Beautifully put.

 

[Rich T]

How, exactly, would Beastly Kingdom have done that, and done it better than World of Avatar? Seems like a stretch to me, especially when ecological mindfulness is already baked into Avatar's folklore.

Again, it's because Beastly Kingdom would have drawn inspiration from very real cultural traditions on the planet the park celebrates. Avatar is a celebration of one man's movie.

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

Again, it's because Beastly Kingdom would have drawn inspiration from very real cultural traditions on the planet the park celebrates. Avatar is a celebration of one man's movie.

Those are my thoughts too. Avatar is too singularly focused on one thing and one thing only, whereas BK (not the be confused with Burger King) would have encapsulated a much wider range of attractions and creatures.

 

[Deleted member 107043]

I don't want to derail this thread, but alas, these discussions are just too fun to pass up...

I promise after this, I'll try to have self control.

The narrative of Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed for us to return to nature. We embark on a journey through Oasis to get to the Tree of Life. There's no single route to get there. Some may take the direct path, others may choose to take more time on winding paths going over rivers and passing waterfalls. When we embark from the ticket area, we are going on an adventure. We are returning to where we came from. A place of harmony with nature and where we can learn from Mother Earth.

Each of the lands builds off the Discovery Island area. One has to ask why each of the lands was chosen. Why visit the Dino Institute? Why visit Asia? Why visit Africa? What are the stories that are trying to be told?

They are stories of coexistence. They teach respect for nature. They help guests understand the real stakes that are at risk here.

The Beastly Kingdomme area would have been the Earth teaching us with our own stories. The ideas of Dragons and Unicorns have been part of the human experience for thousands of years. The legends of Dragons aren't merely a European concept, but one of the entire EurAsian continent. Stories of great powerful serpents imbued with magic are even found in the Americas.

The legends of Dragons have drawn fascination and fear from audiences for millennia, and still do today.

The Earth, through this land, would have been opening the door to a realm of Dragons and Unicorns that would use the respect and fascination they hold among humanity to teach us. The audience would've been left wondering, what if there was such a place? What if there had been such a place?

Expedition Everest is an example and direct descendent of the Beastly Kingdomme concept in action. The Yeti is something that has been in human mythology for hundreds of years. It may even draw on real ancient creatures. It's something eternal.

Fear and respect of monsters and romanticizing benevolent creatures has been something that has always been part of our journey. Beastly Kingdomme would have encapsulated those emotions, and brought them to a real physical place. There would have been no time travel 150 years into the future, and advances in science (Via Alpha Centuri Expeditions!!! Coming soon!) wouldn't have been necessary. This would have the Earth using her magic to make this place real.

These beasts and creatures aren't from nowhere either. They represent man's fascination with nature and desire to understand it. They come from fear and respect.

Now AvatarLand... Or technically Pandora: World of Avatar!!!!! (I may have been using artistic liberty with the exclamation points). Some interesting notes:
1) Pandora actually has weird demented dragon things. There are weird creatures. There are even beasts! It's actually thought provoking to think of where Cameron got those from. From our shared human experience. Instead of going straight to the source (Beastly Kingdomme) they are utilizing some man's derivative work.
2) Beastly Kingdomme draws on myths and legends so ancient, that they could almost be real. Avatar comes from the mind that brought you Terminator, Terminator 2, etc. Avatar will never immerse you the way the way Beastly Kingdomme could have because his stories aren't stories that have been being told for millennia.
3) Going right along with two, Pandora is part of a brand. It doesn't belong to the world and humanity. It belongs to 20th Century and James Cameron.
4) Pandora is off Earth. Beastly Kingdomme was to be representative of man's view of what Earth might have been. The focus turns away from our shared human experience and onto outer space.
5) The Earth is supposed to be obliterated when we visit Pandora. What a shame. Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed to celebrate Earth and ensure we don't destroy it. In the Universe of Pandora, humanity has failed. Humanity is synonymous with destruction. At Disney's Animal Kingdom, humanity can lose there way, but they are believed to be inherently good. Huge difference.

Those aren't all my critiques, but some of them in a nutshell based on the Beastly Kingdomme vs. AvatarLand discussion.

There is no compare. Avatar is a shoehorning in vs. the incredible potential that could have been Beastly Kingdomme. As each new photo is released of AvatarLand, I become more and more sad about the potential that was lost.

Such a shame.

I can better see the connection, but to me mythical creatures are mythical creatures, whether imagined by a Hollywood mogul or an ancient storyteller.

 

[spacemt354]

Now AvatarLand... Or technically Pandora: World of Avatar!!!!! (I may have been using artistic liberty with the exclamation points). Some interesting notes:
1) Pandora actually has weird demented dragon things. There are weird creatures. There are even beasts! It's actually thought provoking to think of where Cameron got those from. From our shared human experience. Instead of going straight to the source (Beastly Kingdomme) they are utilizing some man's derivative work.

How is that any different than most of Walt Disney's classic animated films, taking from other source material and building a (sometimes completely) derivative narrative? It's immaterial to this discussion.

2) Beastly Kingdomme draws on myths and legends so ancient, that they could almost be real. Avatar comes from the mind that brought you Terminator, Terminator 2, etc. Avatar will never immerse you the way the way Beastly Kingdomme could have because his stories aren't stories that have been being told for millennia.

Dragon and Unicorn tales have been told for millennia. Beastly Kingdomme was not an original incarnation. Several mythological novels and films have included dragons, in fact one featured dragons so much that it took over Dueling Dragons at Universal.

3) Going right along with two, Pandora is part of a brand. It doesn't belong to the world and humanity. It belongs to 20th Century and James Cameron.

So Dinosaur, Rafiki's Planet Watch, It's tough to be a bug, Festival of the Lion King, Finding Nemo: The Musical, and more should all be eliminated from Animal Kingdom.

4) Pandora is off Earth. Beastly Kingdomme was to be representative of man's view of what Earth might have been. The focus turns away from our shared human experience and onto outer space.

Again...the welcome address never mentioned that Animal Kingdom was about earth specifically. It's about animals, real and imagined. Animals from another world fall under the category, and how we as humans interact with their environment do fall under the category of "imagined".

5) The Earth is supposed to be obliterated when we visit Pandora. What a shame. Disney's Animal Kingdom is designed to celebrate Earth and ensure we don't destroy it. In the Universe of Pandora, humanity has failed. Humanity is synonymous with destruction. At Disney's Animal Kingdom, humanity can lose there way, but they are believed to be inherently good. Huge difference.

Those aren't all my critiques, but some of them in a nutshell based on the Beastly Kingdomme vs. AvatarLand discussion.

There is no compare. Avatar is a shoehorning in vs. the incredible potential that could have been Beastly Kingdomme. As each new photo is released of AvatarLand, I become more and more sad about the potential that was lost.

Such a shame.

It's sad that we are dismissing the land before it's even open.

And to get back to the point of this thread...I hope we don't dismiss Star Wars Land in Disneyland before it opens either. I've already said why I don't think it fits, but I'm willing to wait and see how it is pulled off before burying my head and making up my mind.

 

[Rich T]

Could you not argue that alien life and its possibilities became part of humanity's myths and legends as our knowledge of the universe expanded beyond just the Earth?

Sure, but...that's for the future...in Tomorrowland or Epcot. If we're bringing aliens to AK, why don't we also just open an Area 51 Paranoia Land there as well? It could be a cheapo roadside attraction like Dinoland. Disney could charge $19.99 for tinfoil hats. (Please don't blame me if this actually happens).

 

[Deleted member 107043]

And to get back to the point of this thread...I hope we don't dismiss Star Wars Land in Disneyland before it opens either.

There's a whole thread here dedicated to dismissing SW Land.

Side note: what's up with the spelling of Kingdomme??

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

There's a whole thread here dedicated to dismissing SW Land.

Side note: what's up with the spelling of Kingdomme??

I think that's the thread we're in

 

[Rich T]

It's sad that we are dismissing the land before it's even open.

But...that's the whole purpose of the internet.

It could be great. I'll bet, however, nearly everyone here would have rather seen those funds put toward another concept entirely. But that's water under the bridge. And speaking of bridges, and getting back to SW Land, I'm still more excited about the train making a left turn than anything else.

 

[DDLand]

I should never use numbers or lists in a post. This allows for content to be ripped from proper context and opens the door for very controlled spin.

I always forget that...

 

[spacemt354]

There's a whole thread here dedicated to dismissing SW Land.

Side note: what's up with the spelling of Kingdomme??

I'm not 100% sure - but similar to programme - program, it's an old european way of saying kingdom.

I should never use numbers or lists in a post. This allows for content to be ripped from proper context and opens the door for very controlled spin.

I always forget that...

All context is there. You decided to take a hard stance on something that can be refuted with a differing opinion.

 

[Rich T]

I can better see the connection, but to me mythical creatures are mythical creatures, whether imagined by a Hollywood mogul or an ancient storyteller.

Wait, wait... you see no distinction between a Chinese dragon that has sprung from generations of storytelling and is woven into a culture's identity and a CGI alien James Cameron throws on a screen in a mediocre movie?

 

[spacemt354]

But...that's the whole purpose of the internet.

It could be great. I'll bet, however, nearly everyone here would have rather seen those funds put toward another concept entirely. But that's water under the bridge. And speaking of bridges, and getting back to SW Land, I'm still more excited about the train making a left turn than anything else.

I would have liked to see it in another park, or something exclusive to DHS. But it will make the Railroad a lot more interesting in that section!

 

[Earl Sweatpants]

If I can try and attempt cohesion here in the thread...I think the problem I have with Avatar Land and SWL is the fact that I don't think Disney can ultimately afford to keep giving single IP's their own "land". Since 2010, we've seen CarsLand, Avatar Land, and upcoming TSL, SWL, Marvel Land, and I'll even throw in the proposed FrozenLand. But that trend can't continue with current spacial limitations. I would much rather see Disney create something like Beastly Kingdom which could incorporate a wide range of ideas and yes, even properties into its grander theme.

That being said, I have little doubt that both SWL and Avatar land will dazzle their audiences and be big successes in their respective parks. I just wish we could have gotten something more original.

 

[spacemt354]

If I can try and attempt cohesion here in the thread...I think the problem I have with Avatar Land and SWL is the fact that I don't think Disney can ultimately afford to keep giving single IP's their own "land". Since 2010, we've seen CarsLand, Avatar Land, and upcoming TSL, SWL, Marvel Land, and I'll even throw in the proposed FrozenLand. But that trend can't continue with current spacial limitations. I would much rather see Disney create something like Beastly Kingdom which could incorporate a wide range of ideas and yes, even properties into its grander theme.

That being said, I have little doubt that both SWL and Avatar land will dazzle their audiences and be big successes in their respective parks. I just wish we could have gotten something more original.

I agree. I think a lot of this was thrown into the mix due to how successful the Wizarding World of Harry Potter and Cars Land turned out to be.

The logic now is the continued progression towards those two as model expansions, and anything original is risky which might not draw crowds because the attractions aren't something that people recognize. And this is why we're getting IP overlays of ToT, and Frozen in Maelstrom. Disney never used to think like that.

Even though I disagree with that premise, sadly I don't think that will change until one of the lands ends up being a bust or we get a management overhaul who will take risks.