Wish (Walt Disney Animation - November 2023)

[Miss Rori]

The thing with this film that is so unusual, though, is that I suspect that wasn't the intent of the filmmakers.

I think one of the things that completely broke the film's potential was that they wanted to include so many contradictory concepts and tropes and couldn't make the hard choices. Queen Amaya remaining queen after her husband is deposed, despite her being complicit in his reign, is a great example of this: "If a new system replaces the old one, then we can't have a pretty queen and kingdom anymore, and that's not Disney!" King Magnifico has a sympathetic backstory and understandable, if self-centered motivations BUT by having him be possessed by the seriously-unbreakable-you-guys Forbidden Book, no one has to feel guilty about abandoning him to his fate or not trying to redeem him, cuz he's totally evil like people said they wanted Disney villains to be! Everybody will get to realize their own wishes themselves now BUT Asha gets a magical wand so she can...grant wishes for other people, by her choice. Because you should "Just keep wishing" instead of doing things under your own power!

And so on, and so forth, and that absolutely feeds into all the oddball but plausible interpretations of the film. Some reviewers (the A.V. Club's probably put it most elegantly) think that Asha was supposed to represent the Walt Disney Company itself, liberating the dreams of the people so everyone could realize them (and the filmmakers did say she was inspired by Walt the person), but they found it hard not to see Magnifico as the analogue to the company as it currently stands - it takes other people's creations and dreams (Pixar, The Muppets, Lucasfilm, etc.), selectively realizes them in often disappointing ways, and keeps stringing along a worshipful public.

 

[TsWade2]

I might be reading this too hard, but are you saying that Wish will not be on DisneyPlus because they're too ashamed of it?

 

[Disney Irish]

I might be reading this too hard, but are you saying that Wish will not be on DisneyPlus because they're too ashamed of it?

Wish will eventually get a Disney+ release, don't read too much into anyone's analysis of the film.

 

[TsWade2]

Wish will eventually get a Disney+ release, don't read too much into anyone's analysis of the film.

That's what I thought. Hopefully it'll come next month.

 

[brb1006]

This. It's one of the saddest things about how the U.S. entertainment industry works these days - that the market is so flooded with content that something has to be a hit out of the gate or it's over. Even if it is a hit, will it stick with audiences the way pre-New Tens successes do? The Beauty and the Beast remake made a billion dollars. And...what since? Do people quote memorable lines from the total Marvel Cinematic Universe the way they do beaucoup lines from the original Jurassic Park alone?

Today a wonderful retrospective of the output of the short-lived but ambitious Sanrio Films was posted. Older posters who had The Disney Channel in the '80s or recall the days when every town had someone renting VHS tapes may well remember some of these Japanese-American co-productions, many animated, such as The Mouse and His Child or the Unico anime features.

Sanrio Film's Extravagant Quest To Be The Next Disney - Aftermath

From 1977 to 1986, Sanrio Film embarked on a journey to do the impossible: become the next Disney, at the behest of its CEO Shintaro Tsuji.

aftermath.site

I am fascinated by '70s and '80s "family movies", including those of Disney's "dark period", because they are so much more interesting than most (not all) of what's aimed at that market now, not least because they are often not safe. And they had a chance to find their audiences in the aftermarket of home media. That is no longer an option for even Disney. If beautiful films like Kubo and the Two Strings or the Guillermo del Toro Pinocchio struggle to find their audiences in this environment, something like Wish is going to have it even harder. But who knows, miracles can happen.

Since you mentioned Unico, Disney Channel actually reran The Fantastic Adventures of Unico and Unico in the Island of Magic throughout the 1980s. Which caused Tezuka's Unico series to actually gain a small but very devoted fanbase in the United States. To the point that the upcoming "Unico: Awakening" manga series was actually funded by tons of Americans fans from it's Kickstarter campaign. Which just recently got picked up by Scholastic (via Graphix Imprint).

 

[Farerb]

I might be reading this too hard, but are you saying that Wish will not be on DisneyPlus because they're too ashamed of it?

It'll be on Disney+ eventually. They just want to punish those who didn't go see it in theaters thinking they would catch the movie on Disney+ on Christmas.

 

[TsWade2]

It'll be on Disney+ eventually. They just want to punish those who didn't go see it in theaters thinking they would catch the movie on Disney+ on Christmas.

Oh cut that out! What is wrong with you?

 

[Farerb]

Oh cut that out! What is wrong with you?

Disney trained people to wait for Disney+, they are now trying to fix that.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I find it interesting from a profitability lens how our three holiday releases are being framed, versus an actual longevity lens. I’ll admit Migration has a tail of greater significance and if it goes to Netflix will have far more exposure.

But none of those three movies were very popular ultimately. Again profit is irrespective of popularity. They all sold roughly the same number of tickets. Trolls a little less, Migration a little more.

It does strike me that, with the exception of Wonka, most of the films that get described as "successes" relative to Wish over the holidays wouldn't have stood out as such pre-2020. Wish is the most puzzling of those, though, in terms of why its box office was quite so low.

We've talked about Hercules on this thread as a disappointment that found an audience over time on this thread, but that film made more in raw numbers more than 25 years ago than did Wish and, adjusted for inflation and would be at over $220 million compared to Wish's $63 million. The other thing that's interesting by comparison, though, is that Hercules and Wonka made about the same amount of money at the box office when adjusted for inflation, but in the context of 2023/4 Wonka looks like a far bigger hit.

I think one of the things that completely broke the film's potential was that they wanted to include so many contradictory concepts and tropes and couldn't make the hard choices. Queen Amaya remaining queen after her husband is deposed, despite her being complicit in his reign, is a great example of this: "If a new system replaces the old one, then we can't have a pretty queen and kingdom anymore, and that's not Disney!" King Magnifico has a sympathetic backstory and understandable, if self-centered motivations BUT by having him be possessed by the seriously-unbreakable-you-guys Forbidden Book, no one has to feel guilty about abandoning him to his fate or not trying to redeem him, cuz he's totally evil like people said they wanted Disney villains to be! Everybody will get to realize their own wishes themselves now BUT Asha gets a magical wand so she can...grant wishes for other people, by her choice. Because you should "Just keep wishing" instead of doing things under your own power!

I agree that, at least for me, the filmmakers made so many odd and contradictory choices in terms of the characters and plot that the whole thing just didn't hang together. I still suspect it was hamstrung by this whole "Disney 100" framing of the film. Magnifico is a perfect example in that they seemed to want a more nuanced character and a classic Disney villain, so they just made him both which left some of us, at least, unconvinced about the whole issue at the centre of the film's plot. In general, the film is called Wish and the central tension is around a voluntary system of abrogating wishes to a higher power versus pursuing them individually which, I guess, could work but kind of doesn't work without introducing a magic book that makes the higher power selectively granting wishes and maintaining overall order unequivocally evil.... Hmm, I think I just unwittingly unpacked for myself why some people read the film as anti-religion!

 

[LittleBuford]

It does strike me that, with the exception of Wonka, most of the films that get described as "successes" relative to Wish over the holidays wouldn't have stood out as such pre-2020. Wish is the most puzzling of those, though, in terms of why its box office was quite so low.

We've talked about Hercules on this thread as a disappointment that found an audience over time on this thread, but that film made more in raw numbers more than 25 years ago than did Wish and, adjusted for inflation and would be at over $220 million compared to Wish's $63 million. The other thing that's interesting by comparison, though, is that Hercules and Wonka made about the same amount of money at the box office when adjusted for inflation, but in the context of 2023/4 Wonka looks like a far bigger hit.


I agree that, at least for me, the filmmakers made so many odd and contradictory choices in terms of the characters and plot that the whole thing just didn't hang together. I still suspect it was hamstrung by this whole "Disney 100" framing of the film. Magnifico is a perfect example in that they seemed to want a more nuanced character and a classic Disney villain, so they just made him both which left some of us, at least, unconvinced about the whole issue at the centre of the film's plot. In general, the film is called Wish and the central tension is around a voluntary system of abrogating wishes to a higher power versus pursuing them individually which, I guess, could work but kind of doesn't work without introducing a magic book that makes the higher power selectively granting wishes and maintaining overall order unequivocally evil.... Hmm, I think I just unwittingly unpacked for myself why some people read the film as anti-religion!

As someone who believes in God, I find the religious reading particularly baffling. Magnifico in my view has none of God’s defining qualities: he is by nature suspicious, selfish, and arbitrary, his denial of certain wishes guided by unreasonable paranoia rather than a genuine desire to do good by his subjects. If we were to insist on a religious analogy, I would cast him as a false prophet or cult leader rather than as a benevolent deity.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

It does strike me that, with the exception of Wonka, most of the films that get described as "successes" relative to Wish over the holidays wouldn't have stood out as such pre-2020. Wish is the most puzzling of those, though, in terms of why its box office was quite so low.

We've talked about Hercules on this thread as a disappointment that found an audience over time on this thread, but that film made more in raw numbers more than 25 years ago than did Wish and, adjusted for inflation and would be at over $220 million compared to Wish's $63 million. The other thing that's interesting by comparison, though, is that Hercules and Wonka made about the same amount of money at the box office when adjusted for inflation, but in the context of 2023/4 Wonka looks like a far bigger hit.

Wonka is also a hit relative to other live-action musicals, which general don't make over $100 million, let alone $200 million domestically (just ask Color Purple).

Adjusting for inflation, Wish's US box office is comparable to The Black Cauldron.

But Wish is so closely tied to Disney's overall reputation, brand and Iger's legacy that it's not going to get buried like Cauldron was. That movie was easy to write off as a mistake and forget about as it wasn't greenlit by Eisner/Katzenberg.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

As someone who believes in God, I find the religious reading particularly baffling. Magnifico in my view has none of God’s defining qualities: he is by nature suspicious, selfish, and arbitrary, his denial of certain wishes guided by unreasonable paranoia rather than a genuine desire to do good by his subjects. If we were to insist on a religious analogy, I would cast him as a false prophet or cult leader rather than as a benevolent deity.

To be honest, it was not my reading of the film and I think this is more a case of the storyline needing some significant re-working. Thinking it through, though, I can see where others might see the "unmasking" of a supposedly benevolent higher power who asks (rather than commands) you to believe and have faith in his wisdom in a paternal sense could bring to mind at least certain conceptions of God. That includes essentially entrusting your wishes and desires to this higher power and accepting there is a greater purpose at work even when they are not granted. I was brought up Catholic, and that resonates reasonably well with the kind of God I was taught about by the nuns in primary school!

Again, I don't think that was the intent at all, but I can see why some people could read it that way. As for the difference between a false prophet or cult leader versus a benevolent deity, that can depend on what you believe. If you're an anti-theist, for example, you would probably argue that the benevolence of God is just a facade designed to justify social control as it was for Magnifico.

Wonka is also a hit relative to other live-action musicals, which general don't make over $100 million, let alone $200 million domestically (just ask Color Purple).

Adjusting for inflation, Wish's US box office is comparable to The Black Cauldron.

But Wish is so closely tied to Disney's overall reputation, brand and Iger's legacy that it's not going to get buried like Cauldron was. That movie was easy to write off as a mistake and forget about as it wasn't greenlit by Eisner/Katzenberg.

I don't think it will completely disappear like Black Cauldron, but I could also see Atlantis and Treasure Planet as analogies as a reminder of a weird period in Disney animation where they weren't quite firing on all cylinders. Regarding legacy, this is kind of caught in the aftermath of the Iger-Chapek-Iger succession and I could see Iger very much wanting to write it off as part of the mess Chapek left behind for him to clean up before turning things around. Whether that is fair or not is another question! When Iger leaves, the only real incentive to keep the film alive will be if it does build an enduring appeal on streaming and in terms of merchandising, which could still happen.

 

[LittleBuford]

Thinking it through, though, I can see where others might see the "unmasking" of a supposedly benevolent higher power who asks (rather than commands) you to believe and have faith in his wisdom in a paternal sense could bring to mind at least certain conceptions of God. That includes essentially entrusting your wishes and desires to this higher power and accepting there is a greater purpose at work even when they are not granted. I was brought up Catholic, and that resonates reasonably well with the kind of God I was taught about by the nuns in primary school!

I think why the analogy fails for me is that those who view God as a fraudulent concept hold the same view of religion itself, whereas Wish reaffirms the existence of what Magnifico claims to be the gatekeeper of: there is no suggestion that magic (or whatever else we might call the force represented by Star) isn’t real.

Totally tangential, but were you taught to say “haitch” instead of “aitch”? Have I asked you that before? (I have some vague memory of having done so.) I remember reading somewhere that “haitch” (which is standard in Irish English) is something that sets Catholic-educated Australians apart.

 

[Miss Rori]

We've talked about Hercules on this thread as a disappointment that found an audience over time on this thread, but that film made more in raw numbers more than 25 years ago than did Wish and, adjusted for inflation and would be at over $220 million compared to Wish's $63 million. The other thing that's interesting by comparison, though, is that Hercules and Wonka made about the same amount of money at the box office when adjusted for inflation, but in the context of 2023/4 Wonka looks like a far bigger hit.

Beyond it being unusually successful for a live-action musical film (that isn't a Disney remake), even more so when the international grosses are factored in (it lapped Mary Poppins Returns and The Greatest Showman, its closest analogues), Wonka is basically what would have been the runner-up in a "traditional" holiday movie lineup - the successful all-ages counterprogramming to a Star Wars installment or an Avatar sequel. But there wasn't an Avatar-sized hit in the 2023 holiday batch, so it placed first. Migration might have done better in a more competitive environment too.

Regarding Wish, the million-dollar question is really two questions: why more families didn't show up, and why those who did see it didn't go back for seconds and/or recommend it to friends. The more I think about it, this movie didn't connect with actual children at all - hence all the shelfwarming merchandise. What did this movie lack that the more successful ones had?

 

[Tha Realest]

Beyond it being unusually successful for a live-action musical film (that isn't a Disney remake), even more so when the international grosses are factored in (it lapped Mary Poppins Returns and The Greatest Showman, its closest analogues), Wonka is basically what would have been the runner-up in a "traditional" holiday movie lineup - the successful all-ages counterprogramming to a Star Wars installment or an Avatar sequel. But there wasn't an Avatar-sized hit in the 2023 holiday batch, so it placed first. Migration might have done better in a more competitive environment too.

Regarding Wish, the million-dollar question is really two questions: why more families didn't show up, and why those who did see it didn't go back for seconds and/or recommend it to friends. The more I think about it, this movie didn't connect with actual children at all - hence all the shelfwarming merchandise. What did this movie lack that the more successful ones had?

Here’s one reason offered- which was shouted down as an unreasonable position because they were Grammy nominated

I just looked it up, and, am I wrong that this is the first time this songwriter wrote songs for any movie, let alone an animated one?

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I think why the analogy fails for me is that those who view God as a fraudulent concept hold the same view of religion itself, whereas Wish reaffirms the existence of what Magnifico claims to be the gatekeeper of: there is no suggestion that magic (or whatever else we might call the force represented by Star) isn’t real.

One of the things I find interesting about this film is how much of a Rorschach Test it has proved to be. It seems so many people come away with completely different readings of its core message. I will say, when I was back in Australia over Christmas I was lightly reprimanded by a friend who took her twin daughters to the cinema to see it as their first film and they all loved it, including the songs. So, particularly given that they were already seasoned watchers of films like Little Mermaid and Moana on Disney+, it's that kind of feedback that gives me some pause about writing it off on streaming.

Totally tangential, but were you taught to say “haitch” instead of “aitch”? Have I asked you that before? (I have some vague memory of having done so.) I remember reading somewhere that “haitch” (which is standard in Irish English) is something that sets Catholic-educated Australians apart.

Interesting! I never really thought about it where I learnt it, but I remember very clearly being corrected by my father as a teenager when I said "haitch". My father was born in the UK and moved to Australia when he was 12, but my mother's family was Irish and I spent so much time with my grandmother in particular as a child that I spoke with an Irish accent until I went to primary school. Then, I was in Catholic schools all through my schooling. So, your explanation for my "haitch" makes sense as coming either from my grandparents and/or my Catholic schooling! For some reason, my parents sent me to a Polish Catholic primary school, but that's another issue!

 

[LittleBuford]

One of the things I find interesting about this film is how much of a Rorschach Test it has proved to be. It seems so many people come away with completely different readings of its core message. I will say, when I was back in Australia over Christmas I was lightly reprimanded by a friend who took her twin daughters to the cinema to see it as their first film and they all loved it, including the songs. So, particularly given that they were already seasoned watchers of films like Little Mermaid and Moana on Disney+, it's that kind of feedback that gives me some pause about writing it off on streaming.

I'm very curious to know what sort of consensus (if any) emerges about Wish in, say, 5 years' time.

Interesting! I never really thought about it where I learnt it, but I remember very clearly being corrected by my father as a teenager when I said "haitch". My father was born in the UK and moved to Australia when he was 12, but my mother's family was Irish and I spent so much time with my grandmother in particular as a child that I spoke with an Irish accent until I went to primary school. Then, I was in Catholic schools all through my schooling. So, your explanation for my "haitch" makes sense as coming either from my grandparents and/or my Catholic schooling! For some reason, my parents sent me to a Polish Catholic primary school, but that's another issue!

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing!

 

[DKampy]

Here’s one reason offered- which was shouted down as an unreasonable position because they were Grammy nominated

I don’t know what that has anything to with the quality of the songs… she is a gifted Grammy winning songwriter…. Lots of songwriters have won Oscar’s with their first time writing a song for a movie

 

[Tha Realest]

I don’t know what that has anything to with the quality of the songs… she is a gifted Grammy winning songwriter…. Lots of songwriters have won Oscar’s with their first time writing a song for a movie

Because the songs have proven to be unmemorable, and it would’ve served them well to put someone either with this skill set on the assignment(Disney’s standard songwriters for this sort of thing) or someone with a lengthy history of exquisite popular songwriting (Elton John, Phil Collins).

Maybe a $200M tentpole isn’t a good trying ground for this sort of thing

 

[Advisable Joseph]

I'm very curious to know what sort of consensus (if any) emerges about Wish in, say, 5 years' time.

Think about Toy Story 4: popular by box office, critics, viewer ratings, yet despised on forums.

On another note, Wish was finally released on Tuesday. Overnight in the US, on Walmart.com both the DVD and Blu-ray (which comes with a DVD and Digital Code too) say that over 100 had been sold since yesterday, same as the Oppenheimer DVD. Migration only sold 50+ for DVD and Blu-ray.

The Wish 4k Blu-ray Steelbook is available again for shipping from Walmart, which claims it is in 200+ shopping carts, same for the ordinary Blu-ray. Not sure if that means anything, but Walmart thinks it sounds good. (I saw those by searching for "Disney Wish Blu Ray" with no hyphen)


Also, Wish was the best-selling Kids & Family DVD and Blu-ray on Amazon in the US.