Wish (Walt Disney Animation - November 2023)

[brideck]

Look at President Obama as an example; when he ran for President in 2008 and 2012 he was opposed to gay marriage and publicly stated he felt marriage was only meant to be an institution between one man and one woman. But by 2013, he suddenly "evolved" (his word) on the issue and now supports gay marriage.

There's a difference between supporting/opposing gay marriage and just thinking it's okay for people to be represented and seen in a public space. People can definitely evolve, but you're comparing legal rights (with Obama) to just the right to be seen (in a movie). I'm fairly certain that most children have seen a gay person in their life. A cartoon including a gay person is not an endorsement, it's an attempt at normalization so kids don't grow up to "other" people who aren't exactly like them.

But this has devolved into the Strange World thread all over again. Nothing but cuteness, Disney references, and people discovering their power to be found here in Wish.

 

[Vegas Disney Fan]

It’s remarkable that you refuse to say the same about films that happen to feature gay characters. That’s the whole problem with the way you and others are framing things: if there’s an obvious scapegoat (“gay themes”, “race-swapping”, etc.), you’ll latch onto it as the cause for box-office disappointment; and if there isn’t, then you’ll simply blame the film’s mediocrity. It’s entirely predictable by now.

I blame girl power far more than gay inclusion for the vast majority of Disneys recent failures, although I will credit TLMs failure almost exclusively on race swapping, had they remade it with a red headed white girl I think it would have done much better.

The death of Star Wars was due to 2 things, mostly that they destroyed our childhood heroes, the decision to turn Luke, the never give up optimist, into a recluse who doesn’t care about anyone was a crime... girl power was the second failure, Turning Rey into a girl boss through a 5 minute training was horrible, they did the same with She Hulk, Lady Thor, etc... Disney has a habit of their male heroes struggling to learn and developer their powers (often with very humorous results) but with girls they all pick it up in a few minutes and are instantly superior to their male counterparts .

The death of Marvel is mostly on girl power, they killed off most the male fan favorites and turned the few who remain into co-heroes with multiple women or in many cases just the sidekicks.

Disney loves destroying characters we grew up with and love, it’s almost like they’re trolling their long time fans to see how much they’ll take before they stop watching, jokes on Disney because most have stopped watching, and not just Marvel and Star Wars but the other Disney movies also.

 

[mickEblu]

Wish appears to be simply a mediocre movie that didn't get global audiences to the theater, with or without 2SLGBTQQIA+ characters. The Disney brand has waning cachet now, and audiences aren't stupid with how they spend their own money.

Wish is about the 10th flop in a row for Disney. For various reasons, that are all mostly within Disney's ability to self-correct.

Exactly. Unless perhaps all people who go the movies have short term memory loss?

Wish was a little more careful but you know they just can’t help themselves over at Disney these days. For example check out Ashas friends who I have dubbed the Snooze Squad. Recycled background characters from Frozen 2. They check every box except being interesting, well designed or funny. And wow did they get a lot of screen time.

 

[mickEblu]

I don’t know that they are but I could see how it “could” impact the story.

I’ve spent most my life working in food and beverage, if you asked me to make you a good drink I could come up with hundreds of recipes, if you said don’t use vodka because most drinks use vodka, still easy, if you said no vodka and it must have whiskey, still easy, if you said no vodka, must have whiskey, and has to have OJ also… still possible but getting a lot more difficult, if you said no vodka, must have whiskey, must have OJ, and must be red in color… I can make it but I doubt it’s going to taste very good. I don’t know if that’s what’s happening but I can absolutely see scenarios where the stories are suffering because the writers are being given specific criteria and they are making compromising changes to meet them.

One of the critiques I often see in Disney reviews is it feels like they were written by committee rather than with a unified story, that would make sense if a bunch of people were adding their own bits and pieces into the writers original concept.

This is probably a good place to drop these quotes from Dana Walden…

 

[TsWade2]

This is probably a good place to drop those quotes from Dana Walden…

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I’ll say this, I don’t trust that wicked witch of the west!

 

[brideck]

For example check out Ashas friends who I have dubbed the Snooze Squad. Recycled background characters from Frozen 2. They check every box except being interesting, well designed or funny. And wow did they get a lot of screen time.

Those characters are literally just patterned after the 7 dwarfs, who themselves are not particularly well-characterized beyond their singular trait, unless you consider Walt's description of Grumpy as "the woman-hater" to be aces characterization. Whether the writers of Wish should have done more with these characters is a valid question, but they more or less serve as a microcosm of the youth of Rosas. We see Asha's effect on society through how her friends' thoughts and opinions change.

 

[LittleBuford]

Disney loves destroying characters we grew up with and love, it’s almost like they’re trolling their long time fans to see how much they’ll take before they stop watching, jokes on Disney because most have stopped watching, and not just Marvel and Star Wars but the other Disney movies also.

I grew up on Disney and don’t feel this way at all. But to each his own.

 

[mickEblu]

Those characters are literally just patterned after the 7 dwarfs, who themselves are not particularly well-characterized beyond their singular trait, unless you consider Walt's description of Grumpy as "the woman-hater" to be aces characterization. Whether the writers of Wish should have done more with these characters is a valid question, but they more or less serve as a microcosm of the youth of Rosas. We see Asha's effect on society through how her friends' thoughts and opinions change.

However you slice it not a single one of them was entertaining.

 

[TP2000]

It’s remarkable that you refuse to say the same about films that happen to feature gay characters. That’s the whole problem with the way you and others are framing things: if there’s an obvious scapegoat (“gay themes”, “race-swapping”, etc.), you’ll latch onto it as the cause for box-office disappointment; and if there isn’t, then you’ll simply blame the film’s mediocrity. It’s entirely predictable by now.

Is it possible that Strange World was just as unimpressive and mediocre as Wish, but was also burdened by a needless gay teen character arc that did nothing but rile up parents of young children already leery of Disney branded entertainment?

That seems quite possible to me.

 

[TP2000]

There's a difference between supporting/opposing gay marriage and just thinking it's okay for people to be represented and seen in a public space. People can definitely evolve, but you're comparing legal rights (with Obama) to just the right to be seen (in a movie). I'm fairly certain that most children have seen a gay person in their life.

As an old gay guy who honed his Gaydar decades ago when we were illegal, this begs the question... What does a gay person look like?

Especially a cartoon version of a gay person. Does he carry a man purse? Flounce about and do flower arranging while he talks to you? Wear silk cravats and pastels in months that aren't April and May? Does he smirk a lot and make random bitchy comments like he's Paul Lynde in the center square even though you're just sitting in his kitchen talking?

 

[brideck]

Is it possible that Strange World was just as unimpressive and mediocre as Wish, but was also burdened by a needless gay teen character arc that did nothing but rile up parents of young children already leery of Disney branded entertainment?

That seems quite possible to me.

There literally wasn't a "gay teen character arc" in that movie. There was a "gay teen character moment," but that character's arc had zero to do with being gay. But then again, you would have had to watch it to know that. Or have watched anything, really. (I know, I know... you already watched your one movie of the year.)

As an old gay guy who honed his Gaydar decades ago when we were illegal, this begs the question... What does a gay person look like?

Like you and me, only sometimes holding the hand of another person of the same gender. And sometimes <gasp> kissing a person of the same gender.

 

[TP2000]

Like you and me, only sometimes holding the hand of another person of the same gender. And sometimes <gasp> kissing a person of the same gender.

Well, that seems boring.

So why even bother putting that in children's movies if it makes the parents ($$$) antsy and weirded out?

 

[brideck]

Well, that seems boring.

So why even bother putting that in children's movies if it makes the parents ($$$) antsy and weirded out?

I said upthread that the goal is normalization. It's so that even if the parents never evolve, the children won't be antsy and weirded out (or shake their head in disgust or grumble out loud or ...) when two men hold hands in public in their presence.

 

[TP2000]

I said upthread that the goal is normalization. It's so that even if the parents never evolve, the children won't be antsy and weirded out (or shake their head in disgust or grumble out loud or ...) when two men hold hands in public in their presence.

The question is... is it up to the Walt Disney Company to train society to do that? And charge them for that privilege?

The box office of the past few years very clearly says that it's not, and it's not a good business plan either.

 

[LittleBuford]

The question is... is it up to the Walt Disney Company to train society to do that? And charge them for that privilege?

The box office of the past few years very clearly says that it's not, and it's not a good business plan either.

Reflecting what children will see in real life is not training them, as you call it.

My partner and I hold hands in WDW, among other places. Children are seeing people like us whether their parents let them watch Disney films or not. Some of those children are people like us.

 

[brideck]

The box office of the past few years very clearly says that it's not, and it's not a good business plan either.

I really think that the bigger issue is that Disney has trained its core audience to not bother with the theater and wait for D+, which is an even worse business plan.

None of the last 10 animated movies (Disney & Pixar combined) have benefited from being part of an established franchise or brand in any way, which seems to be the only thing driving families to the big screen in large numbers these days. You could argue that Disney or Pixar is supposed to be the brand, but looking at the big hits from the last few years it's almost only stuff with brand or franchise recognition baked into the title. Oppenheimer is the one large exception, and it rode Barbie's coattails. I think you have to go all the way back to Zootopia to find an original Disney or Pixar animated movie that cracked the year's top 10.

It'll be interesting to see what Inside Out 2 does. The first one was a massive success, but it will also have been 9 years past by next summer.

 

[TP2000]

Reflecting what children will see in real life is not training them, as you call it.

My partner and I hold hands in WDW, among other places. Children are seeing people like us whether their parents let them watch Disney films or not. Some of those children are people like us.

Putting aside words and phrases that you feel are Wrongspeak... why do you think Disney films bomb at the box office now, one after another after another?

Disney's brand is tarnished in the marketplace. It doesn't help that they keep belching out mediocre movies that cost them at least $200 Million to make, but the brand problem they face is real and is not going away yet.

And your solution is to double down and put in more gay characters holding hands and quickly pecking each other on the cheek for no real reason that advances the plot until the parents finally give in and buy tickets to Disney movies again en masse?

 

[MoonRakerSCM]

I said upthread that the goal is normalization. It's so that even if the parents never evolve, the children won't be antsy and weirded out (or shake their head in disgust or grumble out loud or ...) when two men hold hands in public in their presence.

So......... an agenda.

Some parents wont raise their kids the way we think they should so we'll do it for them veiled in our entertainment.

 

[brideck]

Some parents wont raise their kids the way we think they should so we'll do it for them veiled in our entertainment.

I mean... nobody's telling anyone that they can't throw tomatoes at the screen when they see two men holding hands, if they want to. And you'd probably be teaching your kids what you want in the process.

Also, it's not particularly veiled. It just is. As are two men holding hands in the real world. Feel free to grumble or miss out on entertainment, if you want. Lord knows there's 1000s of other things to watch out there -- most of which don't make much of any money. Only somewhere around 20% of movies make any money, and all that straight to streaming stuff has yet to turn a profit for anyone.

 

[TP2000]

I mean... nobody's telling anyone that they can't throw tomatoes at the screen when they see two men holding hands, if they want to.

No one is going to do that. Instead, they just won't buy a $12 ticket to the movie in the first place.

And not buying a ticket is a distinct message from the free market that is received louder and clearer by studio executives than any thrown tomatoes are, which is a pointless display that only makes more cleanup work for the ushers.

Spoiler Alert: That's exactly what the free market has done for the past two years for Disney movies; not buy tickets.