Why doesn't the world's top theme park operator know how to operate theme parks?

disneygeek90

Well-Known Member
You might have a little break because it will be between Halloween and Christmas, but do mentally prepare for the worst just in case. :)

Orlando locals aren't into the parks the way SoCal'ers are. Not sure why, but it's part of the reason WDW can get away with its shoddy standards and lack of regular upgrades. Out-of-towners just aren't as demanding or scrutinizing as local fans.
I did get the MaxPass so hoping that will save me a decent time if only for walking back and forth :)

When DL is open till midnight, how many locals are actually staying that late on a Sunday night?
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
I did get the MaxPass so hoping that will save me a decent time if only for walking back and forth :)

When DL is open till midnight, how many locals are actually staying that late on a Sunday night?

From my experience a lot of people leave after the fireworks but it doesn't really start feeling empty til about 11pm and even then Space Mountain will still have a decent sized line. Not sure about Indy.
 

mickhyperion

Active Member
I was at Disneyland yesterday and it was a nightmare.

Hordes of people on a Thursday in October. Lines for everything - Pinocchio's queue spilled out past the carousel after 9PM. Restaurants understaffed. Smokejumpers had a line out the door at 3PM.

Disneyland was open from 8AM - 11PM, so they knew this was going to be a crowded day. Hilariously, DCA was open from 8AM - 8PM, so at 8:15PM, Disneyland got about 10x more crowded. Great work team!

Such long hours would necessitate some entertainment, right? Wrong! One performance of Soundsational, one World of Color, three Frozens. No Magical Map, no fireworks, no Fantasmic and no second performance of Soundsational or World of Color.

No nighttime entertainment in DL when the park is packed to the gills and open till 11PM is a huge mistake. Attraction lines were ridiculous (see Pinocchio above, Snow White was just as full). Sure you didn't have to navigate around show viewing areas, but instead you had to navigate around massive extended queues and gridlocked guests. Columbia was docked. Even Pooh had a solid 15 minute wait. POOH.

Everyone makes fun of MiceChat for beating the drum about execs having no idea what a real day in the park is like for regular guests, but they're absolutely right. Disneyland is a premium priced product that does not deliver a premium experience unless you go during "peak" seasons that are no longer peak. The park is delightful in July now, for example.

Despite Disneyland completely shifting its business model to making previously off-peak times peak and previously peak times off-peak, they have not shifted their scheduling or operations to match. July attendance was weak, and yet Disneyland was open from 8AM - 12AM every day with a full entertainment roster. October is miserably crowded - why isn't the park open with entertainment each day that month instead? Why don't they schedule more CMs in shops and restaurants during the week instead of Saturdays, when they all stand around looking for something to do? During the week the poor CMs are working to death with inadequate teams to support them.

HMH is too popular. If they are going to insist on using FP on that poor ride, the standby queue becomes absurd. It's the slowest moving thing I've ever seen. FP isn't much better - I waited no less than 34 minutes in the FP line for HMH yesterday. 34 minutes. I can't imagine the posted standby wait of 80 minutes was anywhere close to accurate since in the time I was going through the FP queue, the standby queue moved small amounts three times. The whole of the NOS fountain area was taken up with extended queue, and the FP return line stretched to the ride exit. Something is wrong.

Disneyland's old system of only running big entertainment during peak season/weekends is antiquated. If they want to be a resort destination, they need to start acting like one. WDW and TDR do Fantasmic every day, 365 days a year. We can't do fireworks every day at Disneyland due to local regulations, but World of Color isn't enough. Fantasmic and Magical Map should be daily at this point with the resort's attendance, and nothing is going to get better when SWGE opens and madness descends.

All of this goes hand in hand with TDA's utter failure to address parking. Years of kicking the can down the road thanks to vision-free leadership who just were looking for their next promotion, and now it's too late. It's literally too late. I don't think they could do any new structures at this point that would be ready by early 2019. Meanwhile, guests and cast suffer in insane parking arrangements that were always meant to be temporary.

As long as temporary budget wins to obtain reward bonuses are the focus of TDA suits and not the actual guest/cast experience, I'm afraid the parks will continue to slide into operational chaos. The last five years have been incredible to watch, and there's no reason to assume they'll improve - why would anything change when the numbers look good on paper? Never mind the irreparable brand damage being done, that's someone else's problem down the line.
I experienced a very similar thing a year ago this month. I'm sad to hear that things have not improved or even gotten worse. Fortunately, I was sent a survey asking what I thought and the following is what I sent them. I didn't save the questions they asked, just my answers, but I think they stand alone just fine:

"The parks were grossly overcrowded. At Disneyland in particular, so many people-eating attractions have been temporarily or permanently shuttered. The problem is exacerbated by Fastpass. When it becomes impossible to even get from place to place, have easy access to bathrooms and restaurants, it's clear that the people running Disney don't know what they're doing anymore. It smacks of greed. You don't know how to please people, manage large crowds anymore. You don't know when enough is enough."

"On this day in particular, Haunted Mansion, Big Thunder, Indiana Jones, Space Mountain were all down at different times throughout the day. After waiting in long lines or traversing the park and the crowds just to find a closed attraction was very frustrating. There was nowhere for anyone to go on several occasions. Packed, frustrated, hot crowds with no idea what was open or how to escape."

"When attractions went down, so did their fastpass distribution. When returning for a fastpass time attractions were sometimes closed which meant going back through the crowds to somewhere else. With so many people holding fastpasses, the number of people in walkways and lines for other attractions was greatly increased. Standby lines are delayed to allow more fastpass riders into lines. Fastpass creates a negative experience overall for a few moments of satisfaction."

"In addition to temporary closures, most lines were overrun. The entrance to lines for HM, Pirates, Matterhorn were hard to find because they extended way past wait time signs or ropes. It was hard to discern the line from the crowd trying to get through the walkway. Your crowd control expertise has declined. Positioning costumed cast members and signage in the right places, creating a proper flow of traffic, goes a long way toward creating an air of control and reassurance to a confused crowd."

"The overcrowding made it difficult to shop in any stores which of course made it hard to spend any money. I spent the least on souvenirs this trip than any Disneyland trip in the last 30 years, even leaving money budgeted for merchandise unspent. It became more about navigating the aisles than looking at the merchandise. Aisles were sometimes inaccessible due to volume of people. People with strollers and wheelchairs found themselves either roadblocks or prisoners."

"While some cast members were exceptional (Carthay Circle, for example), most were clearly just trying to make it through their day. The overcrowding and demanding conditions appear to be hard on the cast. The most consistently disappointing cast members, not just this visit but for several years now, are the ones who greet you at the gates and take the tickets (not security). They are a remarkably joyless, gruff group for being the first non-security cast members that guests interact with."

"The security process is understandably slower with the metal detectors now. Many more lines (tents and tables) are needed at peak times. The ticket scanning process is painfully slow. The cast in this role (not security) have consistently for years had the worst attitudes of any in the parks. They are sullen, barely communicate, and exhibit more contempt than "magic." These people should be your best, happiest, freshest. They need to be greeting people with enthusiasm, making them feel welcome."
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
From my experience a lot of people leave after the fireworks but it doesn't really start feeling empty til about 11pm and even then Space Mountain will still have a decent sized line. Not sure about Indy.

I was there on Sunday July 29? I think? So, the weekend that the train reopened. Pretty crowded but nothing out of the ordinary. Space and Indy each fluctuated between 20 and 40 minutes.
 

disneygeek90

Well-Known Member
I was there on Sunday July 29? I think? So, the weekend that the train reopened. Pretty crowded but nothing out of the ordinary. Space and Indy each fluctuated between 20 and 40 minutes.
Honestly, when you're used to WDW waits where FoP, Space and 7DMT is consistently 90+ minutes, 20-40 feels like nothing.
 

nevol

Well-Known Member
"In addition to temporary closures, most lines were overrun. The entrance to lines for HM, Pirates, Matterhorn were hard to find because they extended way past wait time signs or ropes. It was hard to discern the line from the crowd trying to get through the walkway. Your crowd control expertise has declined. Positioning costumed cast members and signage in the right places, creating a proper flow of traffic, goes a long way toward creating an air of control and reassurance to a confused crowd."

This reminds me yet again of their greed-inducing Fastpass-enabled chaos and crowd control nightmares around fantasmic. You used to be able to show up 5 minutes before one of the showings to watch fatntasmic with your 8,000 best friends. Now, they have one or two fastpass zones, they leave half of the riverfront viewing area empty for blue bayou and cafe orleans dinner package purchasers (and never shrink the area based on the number of packages sold, so most of this space just goes unused), and you also used to be able to watch from the bridge over the entrance to Pirates, which was my personal favorite viewing area. I went back this July, and standby was obstructed (trees) viewing on a flat surface (meaning people's heads in front of you really got in the way). I saw a cast member up on that bridge, that I believe became the yellow viewing area before the 1.5 year refurb and complete reconfiguration of the 25 year old viewing area for no reason other than #profit and asked her if people could watch fantasmic from up there. Her answer was something like "I don't know." Why are you standing there? Why is there a white rope behind you along the railing? Is this area being reserved for people or not? Is this some sort of a-legal thing where it technically isn't standby viewing but it also isn't being reserved? The fantasmic viewing area is nearly as old as I am yet TDA needlessly creates problems where they otherwise don't exist by reconfiguring it. Eventually, a family will get trampled in front of Small World Holiday. Maybe then they will finally start to pay attention.
 
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nevol

Well-Known Member
To clarify, I only want magic bands at DLR for the devices and the convenience they bring to touch points. Not the reservation system that is associated with them.

Great points on what should be driving guest experience at the parks. FP can really zap the fun out of your day if you let it. If you don't use the system right, it just adds stress to your day between going completely out of your way for certain FPs and then having to make it to your appointments. It all goes back to overcrowding. They don't want or know how to deal with the real issue. FP is just a "solution" and bandaid to the long lines/ crowding problem. At least that's how they want guests to see it. Even though it was really created to get people out of lines and spending more money. As a guest I didn't wait an hour for Space Mountain so I feel great about that and I go home remembering that more than I do the crowded walkways and increased standby times on smaller/ non FP rides the system created.

My only go-to fastpass is space mountain. And that is because the line is miserable, hot, sun-burning, and tomorrowland is overall a complete disaster that I only enter at a brisk pace to get to space mountain. If the queue were entirely indoors, or as beautiful as Indy's, I would wait for it. I think (scratch that; know) that the line for forbidden journey is way better than the ride and that while going through the single rider line is convenient, it also doesn't really pay off. I'd rather spend 50 minutes in hogwarts than on forbidden journey, so I look forward to the line.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
My only go-to fastpass is space mountain. And that is because the line is miserable, hot, sun-burning, and tomorrowland is overall a complete disaster that I only enter at a brisk pace to get to space mountain. If the queue were entirely indoors, or as beautiful as Indy's, I would wait for it. I think (scratch that; know) that the line for forbidden journey is way better than the ride and that while going through the single rider line is convenient, it also doesn't really pay off. I'd rather spend 50 minutes in hogwarts than on forbidden journey, so I look forward to the line.

Same. At DL I pretty much only use it for Space unless it's a hot day then I go with Splash. Agreed on FJ. I was really disappointed when I rode it at USH. Got better without the 3D but the sets still suck and it's still a sum is less than its parts type deal.
 

shortstop

Well-Known Member
Weird, I’ve felt the opposite.
I was there on Sunday July 29? I think? So, the weekend that the train reopened. Pretty crowded but nothing out of the ordinary. Space and Indy each fluctuated between 20 and 40 minutes.
Space had a 20-40 minute wait all day? Jeez, I guess the summer blackouts really do make a difference. Seems like every time I go, it never gets below 60.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
Weird, I’ve felt the opposite.

Space had a 20-40 minute wait all day? Jeez, I guess the summer blackouts really do make a difference. Seems like every time I go, it never gets below 60.

Im looking forward to some of these triple blackout days in the coming year. Knowing my luck they ll probably do some promotion to get more people to the parks during summer the year I upgrade my pass.
 

mickEblu

Well-Known Member
No kidding. What I’d do for an uncrowded day in the park!

This is between me and you and everyone else on the World Wide Web but I have found a few killer days to go. Now, they re not off season days from the 80s/ 90s but it's the best you ll find on non triple blackout days... here are just a few off the top of my head....


Mid week early March / the week before spring break. A lot of people probably skip that week since they figure they ll take the family when kids are on spring break.***

Mid week late April / the week after the last week of spring break.***

Monday after Thanksgiving is pretty blissful and all the Christmas decorations are already up.

****In 2015 this was very true but in 2016 with the 3 day 1 park per day promotions they had going it was less true. Not bad but not as serene as 2015. Another key factor, don't go on the first nice day after bad weather- whether that's heat or rain. Most locals can adjust their trips and wait for the good weather.
 

Hatbox Ghostbuster

Well-Known Member
This is between me and you and everyone else on the World Wide Web but I have found a few killer days to go. Now, they re not off season days from the 80s/ 90s but it's the best you ll find on non triple blackout days... here are just a few off the top of my head....


Mid week early March / the week before spring break. A lot of people probably skip that week since they figure they ll take the family when kids are on spring break.***

Mid week late April / the week after the last week of spring break.***

Monday after Thanksgiving is pretty blissful and all the Christmas decorations are already up.

****In 2015 this was very true but in 2016 with the 3 day 1 park per day promotions they had going it was less true. Not bad but not as serene as 2015. Another key factor, don't go on the first nice day after bad weather- whether that's heat or rain. Most locals can adjust their trips and wait for the good weather.
I can't confirm this...but someone once told me one of the best days to go to Disneyland is on Super Bowl Sunday.
 

SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
Disneyland's old system of only running big entertainment during peak season/weekends is antiquated. If they want to be a resort destination, they need to start acting like one. WDW and TDR do Fantasmic every day, 365 days a year. We can't do fireworks every day at Disneyland due to local regulations, but World of Color isn't enough. Fantasmic and Magical Map should be daily at this point with the resort's attendance, and nothing is going to get better when SWGE opens and madness descends.

Truer words have never been spoken.

I'm an advocate for both parks being open from 8-12 week nights, and 7-1 weekends, year round. Everyone hates how busy it is, and increasing the park hours should help there be more times of day that the park isn't packed, if people are willing to get up early or stay later.
 
D

Deleted member 107043

FastPass has screwed up the parks. I wish they'd go back to not having it.

Agreed, but stop and think for a moment what the parks would be like without FP. One thing I can assure you is they wouldn't have fewer people in them. The bigger issue is that at any given time there are too many people in the park for it to feel comfortable and manageable, and FP makes it worse, but it would be overrun with people even without FP.
 
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SuddenStorm

Well-Known Member
FastPass has screwed up the parks. I wish they'd go back to not having it.

I'm not sure Fastpass is as bad as people make it out to be. Sure, it increases standby times on the lines- but it also allows people to essentially skip one line every hour or two, while waiting in a different standby line.

An example of my thought process is if someone has to wait in an 80 minute standby line for Space Mountain, if they have a Fastpass for Splash Mountain, they can skip that 80 minute line- which equates to about 40 minutes of waiting per ride. It essentially doubles the efficiency of your queue time.

In order for me to think it should be removed, I would have to see crowd pattern and line statistics that show it lowers the amount of rides people are able to do in a day.

Right now, I think the crowded pathways and excessive lines can be blamed on the fact that the place is more popular than it was before fastpass.
 

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