Why do you believe WDW has gone downhill?

[eliza61nyc]

Boo, Raineman. The don't go argument. I don't think the poster is insane - they don't expect different results. Addicted, now that's the word. I'm also guilty.

lol, that's where being a professed tightwad comes in handy Mr. Bernard, I would seriously get over any addiction that cost me wads of money and not getting me metaphorically "high".
I say it all the time, any vacation I go on, if I come back and all I can write about is how much better it was "back in the day" that place wouldn't see my bucks again.

 

[winstongator]

I am sorry but charging more < a lot more> to gain entry to a park that has an increasing attendance and to have that park close hours earlier has little to do with rose coloured glasses. We never focus on the negatives during our trip but the last two visits WDW made it almost impossible to do so.
Don't get me wrong - we love WDW - but to say that WDW is as good or better than ever - someone else might be drinking a little too much WDW kool aid.

WDW is in need of some serious direction - - - more about the ticket holders and less about the shareholders.

Your juxtaposition of price and attendance is interesting. Imagine you’re Chapek and your top analyst shows you his crystal ball which says attendance and guest behavior will stay the same even if you increase prices 5%. Do you grab the roughly $200million in profit from wdw? That’s a 5% increase in overall p&r profit. If your goal is to become ceo, and the board wants a ceo that can grow profits, why don’t you do that?

Spread over all the parks, hotels, cruises and you get the 14% overall segment profit increase which was the only segment at twdc to increase profit in 2017 vs 2016. That is the big plus for Chapek in the succession plan. Wrench in the plan is I could imagine 2018 p&r profit being down.

Over the past 5 years, attendance has increased in the face of price hikes. Two managers: one takes the profit, the other leaves it. In the current corporate environment, I know which one is moving up the ladder.

 

[winstongator]

My question is-and I'm not trying to be rude or anything-has this decreased value stopped you from going to WDW? I think everyone has a point where they do not continue to visit when the value and the cost do not line up at all. I am not at that point yet, so I keep going, but I think there are quite a few instances where people feel a decrease in value, are continuously vocal about it on here, but still continue to visit. That, to me, is like that old saying about doing something over and over expecting different results. Again, I'm not saying you are one of these people, but it happens.

I don’t compare to what prior values were, I compare it to my other options today. I can look at a house and say, 10 years ago it sold for half what it’s listed for, I won’t even consider that. But when an identical home is 5-10% more expensive, and recent comps support the price, what do I do?

We like annual passes. What drives our price per day is how often we can get to wdw. The year we weren5 going to get there, we didn’t get them. This year we have at least two week long stretches in Orlando, so it made sense again. I need to solve the lodging cost problem though.

 

[pax_65]

My question is-and I'm not trying to be rude or anything-has this decreased value stopped you from going to WDW? I think everyone has a point where they do not continue to visit when the value and the cost do not line up at all. I am not at that point yet, so I keep going, but I think there are quite a few instances where people feel a decrease in value, are continuously vocal about it on here, but still continue to visit. That, to me, is like that old saying about doing something over and over expecting different results. Again, I'm not saying you are one of these people, but it happens.

We've cut our trips back from 3 trips a year to 1 trip every other year. I get some satisfaction that Disney gets a lot less money from me than they have in the past. It's also opened up our vacation schedule to some other experiences which have been great - so it's not entirely a bad thing.

In the past the WDW vacations were so great and the value so high that it was hard to beat, especially given that WDW is almost a unique experience that doesn't really compare to any other vacation. We still enjoy our WDW trips but the value is not the same - so it's a lot easier to justify going elsewhere.

My ranting on here stems mainly from my frustration that many people don't know how good it used to be, and they continue to pay more (and get less) to visit WDW - so I can't really blame Disney for continuing to cut hours, entertainment, etc and raise prices since it seems they are able to get away with it. As a DVC member, I guess it's good for me... I shouldn't have trouble renting my points in future years.

 

[flynnibus]

it's absolutely not placating and no one is making anything up. YOU have less of a good time. we have MORE of a good time. so why should I say different just because you wish to compare it to 1978?? I'm not making anything up and certainly not to make anyone feel good.
sorry you aren't having as good as a time as you had in 1978 but truthfully that's your issues. your experience does not make it universal.

Now as always, full disclosure: I did not go in 1978 so I can't run in that race. I wish I had though just to see if all these accolades are true.

It's most certainly my experience - not yours. But that doesn't make it any less valid simply because you don't have the same conclusion -- especially since you do not have the same frame of reference - by your own admission. So on what premise do you dismiss my experience on? The two posters I replied to did not in fact counter anything that was raised, instead just blanket dismissed them as rose-colored memories or similar.

As for it being universal or not - if you look at the original question and my response - you won't find any claim of universal or consensus... but what you will find is I'm not the only one who has come to a similar conclusion. And in fact, it's a very common conclusion... hence why it's even a subject enough for the OP to write about it.

 

[pax_65]

it's absolutely not placating and no one is making anything up. YOU have less of a good time. we have MORE of a good time. so why should I say different just because you wish to compare it to 1978?? I'm not making anything up and certainly not to make anyone feel good.
sorry you aren't having as good as a time as you had in 1978 but truthfully that's your issues. your experience does not make it universal.

Now as always, full disclosure: I did not go in 1978 so I can't run in that race. I wish I had though just to see if all these accolades are true.

The other piece of this that deserves a mention is that Disney built a huge legion of intensely loyal customers in the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s. That's because the vacations people took in these time periods was extraordinary. Speaking for myself, my family had DOZENS of awesome vacations in the 1990s and 2000s. My kids basically grew up going to the parks (and they are huge Disney fans too).

As I look to the future I wonder if that will hold up. Yes, loyal fans like us will still go (maybe not as often). Locals will still go. New loyal fans will still be created (a lot of the magic from those past years is still there). But I get the feeling it won't be the same. Twenty years from now, I doubt there will be as many loyal fans who visit WDW every year as there are today (loyalty built in the 1970s-1990s).

Disney is cultivating the "trip of a lifetime" crowd and the wealthy, both of whom have lots of money to spend in the parks. The parks are less and less likely to cater to the AP-holder who wants to visit with his family multiple times a year. I see this as short-sighted. Like many American corporations Disney is trying to make a number to show profit for this quarter to their stockholders, and losing sight of the lifetime value these guests could have in the future if they are treated right. This is a lesson Disney used to teach other companies in seminars, and today they've lost touch with it themselves.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

1. Being overpriced
2. IP drivin attractions to the brink of insanity
3. Imagineers not getting a chance for the freedom they have compared to the international parks for creative themed based attractions for thier US Parks.
4. Modernizing everything to a contemporary flair and losing it's whimsy charm that we all enjoyed.

 

[eliza61nyc]

As I look to the future I wonder if that will hold up. Yes, loyal fans like us will still go (maybe not as often). Locals will still go. New loyal fans will still be created (a lot of the magic from those past years is still there). But I get the feeling it won't be the same. Twenty years from now, I doubt there will be as many loyal fans who visit WDW every year as there are today (loyalty built in the 1970s-1990s).

Disney is cultivating the "trip of a lifetime" crowd and the wealthy, both of whom have lots of money to spend in the parks. The parks are less and less likely to cater to the AP-holder who wants to visit with his family multiple times a year. I see this as short-sighted. Like many American corporations Disney is trying to make a number to show profit for this quarter to their stockholders, and losing sight of the lifetime value these guests could have in the future if they are treated right. This is a lesson Disney used to teach other companies in seminars, and today they've lost touch with it themselves.

Great post Pax,
I think though also some of that is not because Disney has gone downhill but a lot of other "venues" have stepped up their game in the family vacation area. When I was a kid, no one thought to bring their kids on a cruise. cruises were pretty much for adults, carnival made a business out of the "partying" young adult. NOW, omg cruises bend over backwards to cater to the family. Mexico and the Caribbean all have stepped up their game as a family destination. Heck, even Vegas attempted to try and change their imagine although that failed.

Also information is now more readily available. again when I was a kid, we had family hour and wide world of Disney on Sunday. so they had a captive audience to sell their "brand". Now kids are tech savvy from birth, the family can google "great family vacations" and get tons of other places. so I do think that some of it is WDW's fault but I also think that a bit of it is today's family are not like us. In a good economy you've got family's taking kids to London and Hawaii. My kids are also disney lovers but I think that's because they know we are doing other stuff too. Would they want to go back every year in lieu of going to NYC or Paris? probably not. I can't tell you how many times someone says to me "you're going to wdw AGAIN"??

I read an article saying that workers today expect to have at least 6 jobs over their life time. Me? I came up in a time where everyone wanted to get with 1 good company and work 30 years and get that gold watch. So the entire thought process of "loyalty" has changed.

I think in this age of 'instant" access, instant information, where the world is the proverbial oyster, the consumer has also changed.

 

[JoMarch]

I don't think its going downhill at all. If I had one minor quip, it would be I feel as a company, they should do more for the people that return to the parks year after year. It's that dedication that keep the brand and company name alive and spreads good will and publicity.

 

[John park hopper]

As a business in the 70's -90's IMO Disney catered to the guests, they have changed and now cater to the stock holders. It is the only explanation I can come up with for the ever increasing prices and charging for what used to be a perk for staying on site. Shorter park ours means less cost in staff and overhead. I don't remember all the merchandise shops at every turn back in the earlier years seems now every where you look there is a Disney store selling something. Yes it is a business and making money is the name of the game but do they have to be so blatant about it.

 

[pax_65]

I don't remember all the merchandise shops at every turn back in the earlier years seems now every where you look there is a Disney store selling something.

Many of the stores used to offer unique merchandise to that store (or just a few stores). The products they sold added to the theme of the area - goods sold in Frontierland had a more Western theme, Tomorrowland had a futuristic theme. You might have trouble finding the same t-shirt on Main Street in MK and on Hollywood Blvd in the Studios. They just had a different look and feel. And much of the stuff at Epcot was unique to Epcot... well, except you might find ANYTHING at the giant World of Disney store at the Marketplace, which was what was so cool about that store. Same with stores in the resorts - they had a much greater selection of resort-specific merchandise.

All of this is true to some degree in some areas but overall the stores have become much more alike in recent years, I imagine because Disney is more concerned with maximizing sales, promoting IPs and reducing costs than with making the shopping experience cool for guests.

 

[mj2v]

It’s more about the expectations that people have now. In the past, you read Birnbaum’s or saw some photos of Wdw.

Now, some watch a YouTube video and make a decision about a show or ride without ever experiencing it themselves.

Then they visit, and it’s crowded, expensive and not as thrilling as they set their expectations.

Yet, they return. Time and time again.

Things that were once ok as is for years, are now expected to be transformed every time they visit, but when something changes, it’s never as good as they remember it to have been.

We live here, have aps, DVC, tiw, etc. we don’t expect perfection. We do expect quality. Most of the time, Wdw fits the bill.

 

[flynnibus]

I think though also some of that is not because Disney has gone downhill but a lot of other "venues" have stepped up their game in the family vacation area

Disney used to be so far ahead of the crowd... because they did it different and better. Then as you say, through the 90s everyone started following Disney and trying to do the same. The problem is, Disney stopped pushing and were satisfied to lean on their image, rather than continue to create separation. It was plainly obvious between the mid nighties and then around 2005 or so... the gap closed. Disney never really re-opened it... but instead sells the idea and leans on their past. The gap is much narrower than it used to be... but the premium is still crazy.

And that's another reason why the 'value' perception hurts. Disney used to feel like nothing else... and so you'd pay for that. Now, the gap isn't as much. Globalization and specialities everywhere are a big part of that too. Disney used to do things you couldn't do anywhere else... now much of that can be found in major metro areas, etc.

 

[LaughingGravy]

Many of the stores used to offer unique merchandise to that store (or just a few stores). The products they sold added to the theme of the area - goods sold in Frontierland had a more Western theme, Tomorrowland had a futuristic theme. You might have trouble finding the same t-shirt on Main Street in MK and on Hollywood Blvd in the Studios. They just had a different look and feel. And much of the stuff at Epcot was unique to Epcot... well, except you might find ANYTHING at the giant World of Disney store at the Marketplace, which was what was so cool about that store. Same with stores in the resorts - they had a much greater selection of resort-specific merchandise.

All of this is true to some degree in some areas but overall the stores have become much more alike in recent years, I imagine because Disney is more concerned with maximizing sales, promoting IPs and reducing costs than with making the shopping experience cool for guests.

One of the perks of admission was the fact that you could get a lot of things ONLY in the parks, with excellent shops with attraction or hotel specific things.
Now, with online shopping, if you know what you are doing, you don't need to go to the park.
So, the value of being in the park when not waiting on a line or being on a ride has diminished.
The value is now spread among the other sights and sounds, but not as much the merchandise in shops.
I think, as another factor in crowds, people don't spend as much time shopping in the parks, because they don't need to.

 

[flynnibus]

One of the perks of admission was the fact that you could get a lot of things ONLY in the parks, with excellent shops with attraction or hotel specific things.
Now, with online shopping, if you know what you are doing, you don't need to go to the park.
So, the value of being in the park when not waiting on a line or being on a ride has diminished.
The value is now spread among the other sights and sounds, but not as much the merchandise in shops.
I think, as another factor in crowds, people don't spend as much time shopping in the parks, because they don't need to.

Lost in that mindset those is the very act of shopping though. No one went into the parks in 1985 thinking "you know what I want.. I need a tahiti ashtray". You would be enticed into the shop in the park, and find these unique things that you wouldn't see elsewhere, and be swooned into purchasing them as part of your experience. You wouldn't buy that same item if it were at the Five&Dime back home.. but as part of your experience of your trip, you'd buy momentos, etc which had a unique value because of where/when/how you purchased it.

Just browsing on the web doesn't have that same emotional hook... nor is it as satisifying for most who just the very act of 'window shopping' they find pleasant. The 'world of disney' type of shopping experience diminishes the unique shopping experience of 'finding something in this corner...' and it's basically a big Walmart shopping experience.

It wins big for convenience, but alters the customer bond with the items they purchased.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Lost in that mindset those is the very act of shopping though. No one went into the parks in 1985 thinking "you know what I want.. I need a tahiti ashtray". You would be enticed into the shop in the park, and find these unique things that you wouldn't see elsewhere, and be swooned into purchasing them as part of your experience. You wouldn't buy that same item if it were at the Five&Dime back home.. but as part of your experience of your trip, you'd buy momentos, etc which had a unique value because of where/when/how you purchased it.

Just browsing on the web doesn't have that same emotional hook... nor is it as satisifying for most who just the very act of 'window shopping' they find pleasant. The 'world of disney' type of shopping experience diminishes the unique shopping experience of 'finding something in this corner...' and it's basically a big Walmart shopping experience.

It wins big for convenience, but alters the customer bond with the items they purchased.

But fly that's how the consumer shops today. They don't want unique. They want cheap, fast and disposable. Store retail is suffering outside of high end stores. Are you kidding?? Lol web shopping has exploded. Amazon is 2 steps from world domination. In 1958 you had no choice. Yes it fes like Walmart because the American consumer WANTS walmart.

 

[flynnibus]

But fly that's how the consumer shops today. They don't want unique. They want cheap, fast and disposable. Store retail is suffering outside of high end stores. Are you kidding?? Lol web shopping has exploded. Amazon is 2 steps from world domination.

Uh... shopping for your kid's backpack, or your cat litter are not the same kinds of shopping experiences we are talking about here as part of a destination vacation. Merchandising as an experience itself is doing just fine.

But the gap guy made it more like Walmart, and less Disney.. and 15+ years later.. we are still suffering the consequences.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Uh... shopping for your kid's backpack, or your cat litter are not the same kinds of shopping experiences we are talking about here as part of a destination vacation. Merchandising as an experience itself is doing just fine.

But the gap guy made it more like Walmart, and less Disney.. and 15+ years later.. we are still suffering the consequences.

Ok we'll have to disagree because around here from vacation gear to your insulin . On line shopping is killing it.
Hell every supermarket has shop at home services.
Every trip I hear someone say "I can get that online cheaper "

Aint a darn soul I know shopping for the "experience".

 

[Goofyernmost]

But fly that's how the consumer shops today. They don't want unique. They want cheap, fast and disposable. Store retail is suffering outside of high end stores. Are you kidding?? Lol web shopping has exploded. Amazon is 2 steps from world domination. In 1958 you had no choice. Yes it fes like Walmart because the American consumer WANTS walmart.

If they want cheap, man, are they in the wrong place. WDW is a lot of things, but, cheap is not part of their reputation. However, for decades now, you could go to Walmart or Target and get all those same WDW trinkets for half the price. One of the many reasons why they work so hard to make sure that you are not able to easily get over the barbed wire.

 

[eliza61nyc]

Lol i am so not mad at Disney for that. America has a mall mentality so that what you get