Why can't we have real conversations?

[wizards8507]

I'm kind of annoyed that this forum has such a strict no-politics, no-religion, no-meaningful conversation policy. Every other message board I've been on, no matter how "specialized," has had a separate forum for people to discuss issues of a potentially controversial nature with people with whom they have at least some cursory interest in common. With this specialist forum, people who consider conversations of a controversial nature "unsavory" would be free to avoid them. You could even block such threads from the "New Posts" feed, so that you had to specifically enter the politics forum to discuss it.

Moderators give the reason for such a strict policy as this forum being for WALT DISNEY WORLD discussion only. If we're going to make such a distinction, there are several other sections of the board that should be closed and removed altogether. UNIVERSAL STUDIOS isn't about WALT DISNEY WORLD. Neither is DISNEYLAND, CHIT CHAT, or VIDEO GAMES.

Conversely, the recent thread "Religious skywriters" was political, heated, and controversial, but it was relevant to Walt Disney World, as opposed to conversations about, for example, a new water park at Universal Studios. Thus, let's be honest about why we can't have these conversations. It's not because they're necessarily irrelevant, but because the moderators think we are immature juveniles who need to be protected from ourselves and denied an open forum for discussion. I understand that my freedom of speech does not extend to privately-owned cyberspace, but let's be real when we give our reasons about banning "heavy" conversation.

If this gets me banned from the site, consider it my fond farewell. I felt that it should be said.

 

[Monty]

Politics and Religion tend to get much more heated and abusive. I suspect the Moderators have their hands full already. Policing the levels of vitriol that come out in Politics and Religion would be more trouble than its worth.

I don't miss it at all.

 

[wdwmagic]

I'm kind of annoyed that this forum has such a strict no-politics, no-religion, no-meaningful conversation policy. Every other message board I've been on, no matter how "specialized," has had a separate forum for people to discuss issues of a potentially controversial nature with people with whom they have at least some cursory interest in common. With this specialist forum, people who consider conversations of a controversial nature "unsavory" would be free to avoid them. You could even block such threads from the "New Posts" feed, so that you had to specifically enter the politics forum to discuss it.

Moderators give the reason for such a strict policy as this forum being for WALT DISNEY WORLD discussion only. If we're going to make such a distinction, there are several other sections of the board that should be closed and removed altogether. UNIVERSAL STUDIOS isn't about WALT DISNEY WORLD. Neither is DISNEYLAND, CHIT CHAT, or VIDEO GAMES.

Conversely, the recent thread "Religious skywriters" was political, heated, and controversial, but it was relevant to Walt Disney World, as opposed to conversations about, for example, a new water park at Universal Studios. Thus, let's be honest about why we can't have these conversations. It's not because they're necessarily irrelevant, but because the moderators think we are immature juveniles who need to be protected from ourselves and denied an open forum for discussion. I understand that my freedom of speech does not extend to privately-owned cyberspace, but let's be real when we give our reasons about banning "heavy" conversation.

If this gets me banned from the site, consider it my fond farewell. I felt that it should be said.

I've been running the site now for just approaching 15 years, and in that time I've discovered that people are pretty much incapable of discussing politics and religion without it turning into full scale war within a few pages. The purpose of the site is to discuss WDW, and I and the small team of moderators have a busy time handling just that topic. You are always free to take such discussion to Private Messages with other members if you wish.

I'm sorry you don't agree with this policy, but another thing I have realized with websites is that you can't please all the people all the time. There are plenty of others who are glad to see no political and religious discussion here.

 

[GenerationX]

As Steve says above, the Mods want the energy and focus of the forum to be on WDW. The forum would be imbalanced if those other hot button topics, which always involve a lot of energy, were allowed. The forums for Sea World and Disneyland are diversions here, which is why they can coexist peacefully with the headliner topic, WDW.

 

[Minnie1976]

I enjoy escaping to the magical world of disney on this site. if I want heavy stuff, I just have to turn on the news.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I've always been ambivalent about this policy (there's a reason it's my tagline :lookaroun). I enjoy having meaty, thoughtful discussions about political and religious questions, and I consider myself friends with a lot of people here, so I would value their input on these questions.

On the other hand, it's almost impossible to have an open forum on things that mean so much to people without preening, insults, assumptions of bad faith, dishonest reasoning, and other irritations that make navigating the discussions more of a drag than a joy.

If there were some super-sophisticated software that could read a post to detect any of those things, I'd say open up the forums. But we're not there yet!

Also, being able to communicate with my favorite forum members in places like Facebook with no limitations on discussion makes the ban less relevant to me. I've stuck around this forum for 9 years, so even if I occasionally see a discussion that I wish could go a bit deeper, something here keeps me coming back.

 

[nepalostparks]

Another one here who is happy to keep the subject of politics, religion, etc out of the forums... whether it be the main forums or some "special" sub-forum. There are plenty of those types of forums and websites out there for that kind of discussion if you are so inclined. Like Wilt, I enjoy those types of conversations, but in the right time and place.

The sad truth is, as the original poster alluded to, there are plenty of members who would be too immature to handle more delicate, detailed, and polite conversation on some subjects. I'd rather the moderators' and Steve's valuable time be put to keeping site up to date and on topic than having to police post after post on an unrelated topic simply so a few members can waste bandwidth expressing their views pseudo-anonymously.

 

[wizards8507]

Another one here who is happy to keep the subject of politics, religion, etc out of the forums... whether it be the main forums or some "special" sub-forum. There are plenty of those types of forums and websites out there for that kind of discussion if you are so inclined. Like Wilt, I enjoy those types of conversations, but in the right time and place.

I don't think I was quite clear on the types of conversations I wish they allowed. A topic along the lines of "Is socialized medicine good for the country?" would certainly be out of place and inappropriate for this venue, but I think the presence of "Jesus Loves You" in skywriting over the Magic Kingdom, or the merits of allowing vs. endorsing "gay days" seem to be perfectly within the scope of this site's stated purpose, as long as these conversations were labeled in such a way that those wishing to avoid them could stay away.

In other words, keep politics and religion out as specific topics, but don't close an otherwise relevant discussion just because those things come up along the way.

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I don't think I was quite clear on the types of conversations I wish they allowed. A topic along the lines of "Is socialized medicine good for the country?" would certainly be out of place and inappropriate for this venue, but I think the presence of "Jesus Loves You" in skywriting over the Magic Kingdom, or the merits of allowing vs. endorsing "gay days" seem to be perfectly within the scope of this site's stated purpose, as long as these conversations were labeled in such a way that those wishing to avoid them could stay away.

In other words, keep politics and religion out as specific topics, but don't close an otherwise relevant discussion just because those things come up along the way.

I think the reason that thread got locked was all the sniping and incrimination that popped up because of the topic. So saying it was locked because it touched on religion is only partially true. It was locked because it got needlessly ugly and heated (which threads venturing into that territory almost inevitably do).

I've seen some threads that dabble into political questions that are relevant to Disney stay open for quite a while, as long as the discussion stays civil.

 

[The Mom]

Every website has rules, even those that claim they don't.

There are websites where any sort of thread drift or off topic (to that website) posts will be deleted. We're a bit more lenient here.

But as mentioned, IF people could have intelligent, respectful, and civilized discussions, many topics would be allowed. Unfortunately, in my experience, they end up being "I'm right, you're wrong, and you're an idiot/racist/bigot/Nazi/Commie, etc for disagreeing with me." And I wake up with my inbox full of reported posts, usually from all of the people who are arguing/insulting each other. :lol:

 

[dave&di]

Can I ask a question, it's not an attack, but why is the thread about Bin Laden allowed, doesn't that cover politics & religion? Isn't it too sensitive to discuss on a Disneyworld forum? :dazzle: Surely a harmless statement may offend people on this subject.

 

[The Mom]

Can I ask a question, it's not an attack, but why is the thread about Bin Laden allowed, doesn't that cover politics & religion? Isn't it too sensitive to discuss on a Disneyworld forum? :dazzle: Surely a harmless statement may offend people on this subject.

It's a judgement call. Just as the thread about the 9-11 attack involved politics and religion. Or if the Pope, the President, Queen Elizabeth, or any other well known world leader was killed would involve politics or religion.

But, I will be monitoring (and most likely editing) the bin Laden thread - it is an important enough news story to allow it to stay, IMO.

 

[dave&di]

It's a judgement call. Just as the thread about the 9-11 attack involved politics and religion. Or if the Pope, the President, Queen Elizabeth, or any other well known world leader was killed would involve politics or religion.

But, I will be monitoring (and most likely editing) the bin Laden thread - it is an important enough news story to allow it to stay, IMO.

Thanks for the reply, I understand what your'e saying.

 

[Pumbas Nakasak]

I regularly do with the voices in my head.

 

[wizards8507]

New problem - It appears that, when threads get shut down, the person doing the shutting-down often makes a final point on this issue. If the topic shouldn't be discussed, shouldn't that include the Mods?

 

[sublimesting]

It's a judgement call. Just as the thread about the 9-11 attack involved politics and religion. Or if the Pope, the President, Queen Elizabeth, or any other well known world leader was killed would involve politics or religion.

But, I will be monitoring (and most likely editing) the bin Laden thread - it is an important enough news story to allow it to stay, IMO.

Not only that but it is a topic (Bin Laden) I think we can all agree on and thusly not have a heated debate about.

 

[sublimesting]

I'm kind of annoyed that this forum has such a strict no-politics, no-religion, no-meaningful conversation policy. Every other message board I've been on, no matter how "specialized," has had a separate forum for people to discuss issues of a potentially controversial nature with people with whom they have at least some cursory interest in common. With this specialist forum, people who consider conversations of a controversial nature "unsavory" would be free to avoid them. You could even block such threads from the "New Posts" feed, so that you had to specifically enter the politics forum to discuss it.

Moderators give the reason for such a strict policy as this forum being for WALT DISNEY WORLD discussion only. If we're going to make such a distinction, there are several other sections of the board that should be closed and removed altogether. UNIVERSAL STUDIOS isn't about WALT DISNEY WORLD. Neither is DISNEYLAND, CHIT CHAT, or VIDEO GAMES.

Conversely, the recent thread "Religious skywriters" was political, heated, and controversial, but it was relevant to Walt Disney World, as opposed to conversations about, for example, a new water park at Universal Studios. Thus, let's be honest about why we can't have these conversations. It's not because they're necessarily irrelevant, but because the moderators think we are immature juveniles who need to be protected from ourselves and denied an open forum for discussion. I understand that my freedom of speech does not extend to privately-owned cyberspace, but let's be real when we give our reasons about banning "heavy" conversation.

If this gets me banned from the site, consider it my fond farewell. I felt that it should be said.

That sounds like that radical Whig talk!!! Who are you Millard Fillmore!?!

Was that too political?


jk

 

[stratman50th]

This is kind of funny, only because I've seen it all before on another forum. The difference is I'm an admin there. The same arguments come up and are rebutted, and we as the staff went backstage (That's what we call our area away from the rest of the boards. Hey, we're a guitar forum so "backstage" makes sense. ) and discussed at length. The real issue is it's very difficult for the staff to police it.
We ended up opening a section just for these subjects that we call "The Mosh Pit". If you aren't a member, it's hidden from view if you're just lurking. You have to have a minimum of 300 legitimate posts to be eligible to join. It's set as a request only forum. Your birthday has to be posted in your profile and you must be at least 13. The rules were put in place so that people wouldn't join the forum just to debate and troll/flame in the Mosh Pit.
For what it's worth, I hate to mod in there, but it serves it's purpose. There's a hard core group that do nothing but debate politics, religion, whatever else isn't acceptable in the other forums. It's really hilarious because the same people are always on the same sides and they just go on and on and on! You feel like hanging yourself. Talk about mind numbing boredom. The haven't sussed to the fact that you aren't going to change anyone's mind who is just as passionate as you are. So one other thing we did was make it clear that if things get out of hand we would close it down and people would have to find another forum with less rules. People actually do behave in the other forum areas now. We have to lock and delete fewer threads.

Anyway, I hesitated to step in here because I'm just the new guy in town and I'm here for the Disney stuff. I can get a belly full of the politics and religion on my own forum.:hurl: But I thought I would just throw this out for anyone who might find it of interest.

Oh yeah, if you all think the mods here are heavy handed, come visit our forum. We put up with nothing. Basically because it started as a teaching forum and there was no place for flaming and trolls!

 

[Master Yoda]

This is kind of funny, only because I've seen it all before on another forum. The difference is I'm an admin there. The same arguments come up and are rebutted, and we as the staff went backstage (That's what we call our area away from the rest of the boards. Hey, we're a guitar forum so "backstage" makes sense. ) and discussed at length. The real issue is it's very difficult for the staff to police it.
We ended up opening a section just for these subjects that we call "The Mosh Pit". If you aren't a member, it's hidden from view if you're just lurking. You have to have a minimum of 300 legitimate posts to be eligible to join. It's set as a request only forum. Your birthday has to be posted in your profile and you must be at least 13. The rules were put in place so that people wouldn't join the forum just to debate and troll/flame in the Mosh Pit.
For what it's worth, I hate to mod in there, but it serves it's purpose. There's a hard core group that do nothing but debate politics, religion, whatever else isn't acceptable in the other forums. It's really hilarious because the same people are always on the same sides and they just go on and on and on! You feel like hanging yourself. Talk about mind numbing boredom. The haven't sussed to the fact that you aren't going to change anyone's mind who is just as passionate as you are. So one other thing we did was make it clear that if things get out of hand we would close it down and people would have to find another forum with less rules. People actually do behave in the other forum areas now. We have to lock and delete fewer threads.

Anyway, I hesitated to step in here because I'm just the new guy in town and I'm here for the Disney stuff. I can get a belly full of the politics and religion on my own forum.:hurl: But I thought I would just throw this out for anyone who might find it of interest.

Oh yeah, if you all think the mods here are heavy handed, come visit our forum. We put up with nothing. Basically because it started as a teaching forum and there was no place for flaming and trolls!

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. Religion and politics are circular arguments that typically have no one correct answer. To make matters worse both subjects have their own dedicated extremists that will not hesitate to behave in a rather "unprofessional" manor to try and forward their point of view. I for one have no desire to deal with it in a Disney forum. If a person wants to engage in such pointless discussions there are plenty of other forums out there where they can argue the finer points of the Tea Party or transcendental meditation until their ears bleed.

Bottom line is this. It is Steve's sandbox. You play by his rules or find another sandbox.

 

[stratman50th]

This is pretty much it in a nutshell. Religion and politics are circular arguments that typically have no one correct answer. To make matters worse both subjects have their own dedicated extremists that will not hesitate to behave in a rather "unprofessional" manor to try and forward their point of view.

We actually have a couple of mods that enjoy debating in the Mosh Pit. I find it a problem because it would be too easy to abuse power, or simply be accused of it.

I for one have no desire to deal with it in a Disney forum. If a person wants to engage in such pointless discussions there are plenty of other forums out there where they can argue the finer points of the Tea Party or transcendental meditation until their ears bleed.

That is the plus for having a separate area. If you didn't want to participate, you just stayed away. But believe me, I see your point and couldn't agree more. Each forum is different too. We wanted to have the problems in one place so it would be easy to watch. When people say here, "How long before it's locked?" We get "How long before it gets sent to the Mosh?"

Bottom line is this. It is Steve's sandbox. You play by his rules or find another sandbox.

That really is the bottom line. I've seen it go in cycles every couple of years. People start to complain how we need to do this, and we need to change that and let's do things this way or that. Our answer is, it's the internet, go wherever you want, nobody is stopping you. We run the site the way the owners want it run. What cracks me up is the people who feel they are so important to the site that it will fold if they leave. Like yeah, right. We get 20 to 30 requests to join per day. I think we'll be ok. Don't worry about us.:lol: