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Who should be excluded to help with the overcrowding problem.

Sonconato

Well-Known Member
My family and I feel that everything is working exactly how Disney planned. My Magic+ allowed them to determine when exactly the slow times would be in advance since many must make their plans 6 months to a year in advance. This made it possible for them to then schedule cheerleading groups, music groups, South American groups, etc… so that the Parks are jam packed year around. As many said, there used to be slow times of the year. Then came My Magic+. That’s precisely when we started to see huge changes in the crowd levels. At first, the crowds became worse during peak times. Then off times became much more crowded. Then we thought maybe it’s because we only went on the weekends, then we discovered weekdays were even worse. Now it seems like there are Christmas crowds every day. This, along with all the cutbacks, have slowly started to drive us away. It’s just not worth it anymore, which is very sad.
 

Hank Hill

Well-Known Member
I would think that Disney would want to exclude those who generate the least amount of profit. With MDE they probably have some insight as to who's not buying high margin products (alcohol, food, merch) but paying the least amount possible to get into the parks themselves. If they find a pattern, they'll probably figure out a way to 'exclude' them. To me, I would think that suggests Orlando area annual passholders, but that's just a guess.
I don't stay onsite, except a few times "camping" at Ft. Wilderness. So that may be a minus for local AP's, but I do know many passholders that do take a staycation often. Maybe it depends on how local. Living in Altamonte may be local, but that can be an hour or more drive.

I would guess I spend just as much, or more, on food and drinks per park day than many vacationers, while spending less time in the parks per day. I rarely go for a full day, only a few hours at a time. But I almost always eat and have a drink when I go. We do get some discounts, but that only encourages me to spend more as I make ADR's for resort restaurants often, and never even go to the park.

If I had to guess it is people who stay off site that generate the least amount of revenue overall. But I am just going off of what I see, it would be interesting to see data, but that's not going to be released by Disney.
 

Hank Hill

Well-Known Member
Since they are already expecting people to plan everything as much as possible in advance, and even selling after Noon entry tickets, just take it one step further. Everyone has to say what park and what times they will be in the park before going at least a week before arrival. Ticket prices will be hourly and prices will change depending on the hour. They can put a "holding pen" in the parks for those that don't want to pay the 12-3 prices. Just put in a big cage with no seats to incentivise paying the higher price. No park hopping. No same day guests. No ticket booths for day of entrance purchases. Put those ticketing CM's in the park where they are needed.

To make it fun, your Magic band will glow when you are in a park at a time you shouldn't be. If that happens, they will kick you out. I am sure some will try and get away. Those people we will call "runners", Disney will hire guards known as a "sandmen" that will chase you, catch you, and make you "renew" your park ticket for another time.
 

MisterPenguin

Fully Pfizered!
Premium Member
To make it fun, your Magic band will glow when you are in a park at a time you shouldn't be. If that happens, they will kick you out. I am sure some will try and get away. Those people we will call "runners", Disney will hire guards known as a "sandmen" that will chase you, catch you, and make you "renew" your park ticket for another time.

Of course, a guest whose MagicBand is about to expire can always get a chance to get the timer rebirthed at the Carousel of Progress.
 

massiv

Member
I agree with the previous poster that Disney has essentially produced this issue all by themselves.

We know they have decreased park hours. We know they have decreased throughput on some rides on purpose.

Attendance is flat for the last 5 years. It just feels significantly more crowded because of what Disney has done to cut corners....

View attachment 449407
People like to blame attendance but the increases are really exaggerated. I don't think a 20% increase in attendance is something that would double wait times and make every day feel like christmas crowds.
 

Sandurz

Active Member
It’s not just attendance increases but also deliberate efforts to stagnate or even decrease capacity.

Yeah Len Testa has done the math on this, they're highly reactive with staffing and managing capacity, but in the absolute worst, cheapest way lol. To cut costs and reduce staff hours, they basically pegged their baseline 'crowd feel' to what was classically a 7 or 8 out of 10 or so, so that any lesser crowds don't get the benefit of a 8/10 staff/ride capacity with a 4/10 crowd, but instead have their available staff/ride capacity cut down to match the 4/10 crowd, and end up with similar waits to a 8/10 day. It's penny pinching of the highest order.

I'm not sure if there's any cheaper way to immediately increase guest satisfaction than by staffing more frontline cast members to keep attraction capacity up, but they'd rather save at MOST a couple thousand bucks a day in each park and kneecap the experience for everyone. Parks and Resorts pulls in like $20B a year in revenue, an extra couple million for staff in each park barely registers as a cost.
 

MisterPenguin

Fully Pfizered!
Premium Member
People like to blame attendance but the increases are really exaggerated. I don't think a 20% increase in attendance is something that would double wait times and make every day feel like christmas crowds.

Rides have an upper capacity as to the number of people they can accommodate per hour. Once you pass that *tipping point*, then the line starts to build up. Here's a break down to understand 'tipping point.'

The Tipping Point

Let's say a ride can handle 1,000 people per hour (pph).
  • If 10 pph show up one day, no line
  • if 500 pph show up the next day, no line
  • if 1,000 pph show up the next day, no line
  • if 1,100 pph show up the next day -- just a 10% increase from the day before -- there will be a line
    • in the first hour there will be 100 people in line
    • in the second hour an extra 100 people can't be accommodated, and so, there will be 200 people in line
    • by the 10th hour of the park, there will be 1,000 people in line
  • if 2,000 pph show up the next day, the line grows by 1,000 people per hour, leading to 10,000 people in line at the end of the day
That's what happens when you pass a ride's maximum. Up until the maximum, there will be no line. Once you go past it, it starts building up.

An increase in crowds, once you pass the tipping point, has a geometric progression increase in wait times. So, let's say that someone gauges that wait times are up 60% from the year before. How large does the attendance have to increase to create a 60% increase in wait time? 60%?

Case Study
  • A ride has a throughput of 1,000 pph.
  • Last year, there were 1,100 pph showing up to ride it. So, for every hour, the line grew by 100 people. At the end of 10 hour day, there were 1,000 people on line.
  • This year, there is a 5.4% growth in attendance. So, for every hour, there were 1,160 people showing up to ride it. Every hour, the line grew by 160 people. At the end of a 10 hour day, there were 1,600 people on line.
  • Even though overall attendance grew only by 5.4% over the year, the line was 60% greater than the previous year.

So, yes, a small increase in attendance can lead to much larger relative increases in wait times once you've gone past a ride's (or whole park's) tipping point.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Yeah Len Testa has done the math on this, they're highly reactive with staffing and managing capacity, but in the absolute worst, cheapest way lol. To cut costs and reduce staff hours, they basically pegged their baseline 'crowd feel' to what was classically a 7 or 8 out of 10 or so, so that any lesser crowds don't get the benefit of a 8/10 staff/ride capacity with a 4/10 crowd, but instead have their available staff/ride capacity cut down to match the 4/10 crowd, and end up with similar waits to a 8/10 day. It's penny pinching of the highest order.

I'm not sure if there's any cheaper way to immediately increase guest satisfaction than by staffing more frontline cast members to keep attraction capacity up, but they'd rather save at MOST a couple thousand bucks a day in each park and kneecap the experience for everyone. Parks and Resorts pulls in like $20B a year in revenue, an extra couple million for staff in each park barely registers as a cost.
Even with everything fully staffed the parks are still deficient in capacity. The most glaring example is that Magic Kingdom has less dining capacity today than 30 years ago. Just look at how much attendance has increased since 1990 and Disney has less capacity, and this is something that makes money for Disney. Across the board capacity has generally stagnated for decades now. The only park that has really increased is Disney’s Animal Kingdom, and it was under built from the start. Even with billions being spent across the non-Magic Kingdom parks in recent years and the immediate future, capacity gains are generally minimal, especially for the cost incurred.
 

Disvillain63

Well-Known Member
Back in the 90s and early 00s, there were stage shows in theaters located in Tomorrowland (behind Buzz meet-n-greet), one in Mickey's Birthdayland/Starland, a small stage area that converted to a splash area to meet Ariel in Fantasyland, Diamond Horseshoe in Frontierland at Liberty Square, plus the Main Street Cinema to watch the shorts. My family would visit these attractions, as well as the rides and other shows.
 

TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
Back in the 90s and early 00s, there were stage shows in theaters located in Tomorrowland (behind Buzz meet-n-greet), one in Mickey's Birthdayland/Starland, a small stage area that converted to a splash area to meet Ariel in Fantasyland, Diamond Horseshoe in Frontierland at Liberty Square, plus the Main Street Cinema to watch the shorts. My family would visit these attractions, as well as the rides and other shows.

And the Adventureland steel drums, and the banjo brothers in Frontierland, and the saxophone quartet, push the trash can....
 

StarWarsGirl

Well-Known Member
download (12).jpeg
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
It’s not just attendance increases but also deliberate efforts to stagnate or even decrease capacity.
You know, I keep hearing that, but I've yet to understand what Disney gains by decreased capacity. Seem like all they would get out of it would be angry, frustrated Guests. I'm really am asking because I cannot understand it. Could you or someone explain it to me? I must be missing something that puts it all in focus.
 

OneofThree

Well-Known Member
You know, I keep hearing that, but I've yet to understand what Disney gains by decreased capacity. Seem like all they would get out of it would be angry, frustrated Guests. I'm really am asking because I cannot understand it. Could you or someone explain it to me? I must be missing something that puts it all in focus.

Reduction of labor costs.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
That part I partially understand and how they make short term profit, but line attractions, with trains or omni's are filling up as fast as they can be filled up, the number of CM's is pretty irrelevant. That's the first thing and the second is they are in a public service business and not accommodating the customer eventually catches up with every public service establishment. It is like investing in a brick and mortar attraction in that it is investing in the enjoyment of the people that they are relying on for income. I guess that they only thing they are concerned about is today with absolutely no thought about the future. They are not failure proof, contrary to the belief of some.
 

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