What is EPCOT now?

[Jrb1979]

Epcot is basically an extension of MK at this point

 

[MrPromey]

First let me say I didn't go to Disney in the 70s and 80s so it may be a point of not missing what I never had , I think the mission statement is still a bit accurate.

When did you actually start going?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the bolded part up there may have a lot to do with your difference in opinion from others on here.

The changes for the worse weren't sudden. There's no specific point you can place your finger and say, "That's it. That's the thing they did when it all went to crap!*"

Instead, it was a lot of stuff - much of it little stuff that in isolation, might not have been that big of a deal - over time.

A lot of the frogs have finally begun to realize they're being boiled... Even though they're still sitting in the same pot of water as all the other frogs they're pointing fingers at and calling pixie-dusters.



*I'm being overly-dramatic by suggesting it's all crap, now, I'll admit.

 

[Poseidon Quest]

Disney markets Epcot as the "magic of possibility", whatever that might mean. The park theme is essentially a corporate buzz phrase.

 

[Cmdr_Crimson]

Disney markets Epcot as the "magic of possibility", whatever that might mean. The park theme is essentially a corporate buzz phrase.

It means it's "Possible" to get something done in a year instead of 5 years! OR Around three if they are in the mood..

 

[Robbiem]

This is long...

It used to be easy to answer the question "Why is EPCOT?". You just go back to the dedication plaque in the entrance plaza, this is its raison d'etre, its mission statement, its remit:



It came from Walt's ideas that not only underpinned his vision for EPCOT and Progress City but that which was evident from the conception of Disneyland, and even before. His fascination/obsession with technology, industry, ways of living past, present and future, social and cultural behaviour, transport, family life, who we are and where we're going. After his passing, imagineers took those concepts to create a new kind of theme park. Yes, copying existing world's fairs and expos, that Disney had already been part of in the past and where pavilions that explored those concepts had already been built and eventually found their way into Disneyland. So this is not an Epcot-only thing, it's what Disney has done from 1955 and before, it's just that Epcot took the concept and ran with it.

You do wonder whether current Disney management has ever read that plaque and, if they have, whether they feel a tingle of guilt or betrayal of the original concept.

No, I don't like the IP intrusion. But I'm not against it, and I'm not against change. It's just that change has to make things even better. Not to make it worse or go against the grain.

I understand why some people say that Remy's Ratatouille Adventure fits into the France pavilion, and Frozen Ever After fits into the Norway pavilion, and Nemo fits into the Seas pavilion. But they're wrong! The purpose of the France pavilion is to showcase the country of France. The Remy attraction doesn't do that. It showcases the movie and it tells a story about the characters in the movie. So it clashes with the pavilion and doesn't fit there. A fitting inclusion of the characters would have been if they had narrated or been the hosts of a new version of Impressions de France, or if the Rat ride itself was a rat's eye trip around French landmarks. And as for Beauty and The Beast Sing-Along, I'm not quite sure anything can save that.

Similarly Frozen Ever After. That's an even more tenuous link as it's not even set in Norway. But even if you say it's "similar" to Norway, it still showcases the movie and the story of the characters. It doesn't tell Norway's story.

And as a UK citizien, in Wales, I'm really quite upset that it seems my pavilion could be converted into a Mary Poppins tribute! Is that really how I want my country represented and showcased to the rest of the world? [There was an earlier post in this thread about The American Adventure...I mean, a similar thing would be if that building was gutted and replaced with a Huckleberry Fin meet 'n greet. He's an American character after all, so he fits there surely??]

A fitting use of the Guardians of the Galaxy IP would have been if in Cosmic Rewind they took us deliberately on a time-travel trip to the beginning of time to show us and explain what the Big Bang is and how it created the universe, with an exploration of the universe coming as part of the ride. Instead of this stupid space-God--thief story. Granted, the Big Bang is is sort-of explained in the first pre-show room, if you're "lucky" enough to be in a long line and waiting in that area and continually looking up at the screen on the ceiling and paying attentionm to every word, but in reality the most people take away from this ride at the moment is the thrill of anticipating what song they're going to get and collecting all six of them. Did the amazing Disney storytelling work and demonstrate to use our place in the universe and how we came to be? What or whose story is this attraction telling?

The Journey of Water, inspired by Moana. Well...the inspired-by bit tells us everything. This attraction didn't start with concept of showing us the water cycle as per classic Epcot attraction, but it started out by looking at ways of incorporating Moana's story into an attraction and making a connection, even a tenuous connection, between Moana's relationship with water and how on earth they could wangle this into an Epcoty attraction. The "education" bit comes from just reading the message boards, the attraction itself doesn't stand alone in telling the story of water, it actually tells Moana's story in how she is able to communicate with water. Like Cosmic Rewind where you have to listen to the lecture at the beginning to get the education bit, then you go onto the completely separate entertainment bit. The art of storytelling has been lost.

And I think the word edutainment is overplayed and Epcot gets bogged down by the term which is almost always used negatively. Disney has always been about learning as you have fun, it's on the dedication plaques for Magic Kingdom and Animal Kingdom as part of their remit, and it's what Disney has always done. Remember True-Life Adventures.

So, why is EPCOT now? It's clear the direction has changed (for the better or worse?), and it's a gradual change so yes, it's a mish-mash of conflicting aims. But with each refresh and refurb, the original dedication plaque becomes more irrelevant. By replacing just a few words, you get a truer picture of why Epcot is now, what its purpose is now:


Epcot's purpose now is to showcase and advertise Disney's products that exist outside of the theme parks, that are in the movie and streaming divisions of the company. The "human achievements" bit, technology and enterprise, shaping a future world, have been dropped. It's now self-referential, it's all about Disney and re-telling the same stories over and over again to cement the movies and characters in our minds. It's about marketing the Disney brand. Why is there a Marvel shop in Epcot??

Was Harmonious really for the 50th only or was it originally intended to be the long-running Epcot show? It didn't celebrate Epcot at all did it? It celebrated Disney movies and songs, loosely tied to Epcot's World Showcase by forcing natives of those countries to sing the Disney songs. It didn't even celebrate the 50th anniversary of WDW. It was literally all about Disney movies.

Really good post. I hadn’t thought about how the parks had shifted to being large ads for Disney movies but you’re spot on.

IP could have been used well in EPCOT as you’ve outlined. In fact I think the lack of any IP was one of the failings of the original park, not because it wasn’t good but because people then saw adding IP as the solution to everything. Properly thought through IP could have been a bonus not a detractor, look at goofy about health in the old Wonders of life or the circle of life movie at the land.

As a fellow Brit I’d have no issue with appropriate IP in the UK pavilion- No reason why we couldn’t have had soarin in the UK with Peter Pan taking us on a flight over the British Isles for example, or a ride where you jump into the pages of a book and travel through a tour of British literature classics seeing how they influenced classic movies, or the same thing with British music

similarly in future world there are plenty of IPs that could easily have been used - Dr Bunsen and Lugwig von Drake are obvious to me but Baymax or Inside out, or turning red could all have been used in a health pavilion. The fab five fit almost anywhere, you could have any number of characters for environmental focused pavilionsMoana, Lion King, Up, Jiminy Cricket etc

There are endless possibilities but it requires a different approach to a Magic Kingdom park to use the IP in the right way and I think that’s what’s missing. The current thinking appears to be Magic Kingdom is the most popular park and has lots of IP rides put more elsewhere, not how do we use our IP in this different setting to make a new experience that fits

 

[ohioguy]

It's, ah, not there being any sort of edutainment aspect to the Moana thing people are taking issue with in that thread - not even remotely.

The entire attraction is based on edcuating people about the water cycle and provides a fun way of doing it. That's edutainment.

 

[eliza61nyc]

When did you actually start going?

I'm going to hazard a guess that the bolded part up there may have a lot to do with your difference in opinion from others on here.

The changes for the worse weren't sudden. There's no specific point you can place your finger and say, "That's it. That's the thing they did when it all went to crap!*"

Instead, it was a lot of stuff - much of it little stuff that in isolation, might not have been that big of a deal - over time.

A lot of the frogs have finally begun to realize they're being boiled... Even though they're still sitting in the same pot of water as all the other frogs they're pointing fingers at and calling pixie-dusters.



*I'm being overly-dramatic by suggesting it's all crap, now, I'll admit.

I think that's why I try to always point it out. My very first trip was in 1975 with my family we HATED, LOATHED it so we never went back. It took getting married and having kids to get me back and that was in 1999 so almost 25 years.
I also think some things mean more to others than to me. I really have no horse in the whole "anti-ip" thing. Guardians imo is a great ride, couldn't care less that it's in Epcot.

I'm really glad my family still loves Epcot, and we're just not folks who "long and wax" about the good Ole days.

2 more sleeps until I'm back at the world

 

[AdventureHasAName]

When they do add something that harks back to the original mission of EPCOT, like Moana's Journey Into Water, they are needlessly criticized even before the attraction opens.

I think you misunderstand the criticism of Moana. The criticism is because it doesn't resemble Future World (circa 1980s) in any form or fashion. The concept may have worked in The Living Seas pavilion, as a type of Image Works-style kids play area, but as built, it's just a playground that doesn't fit with past theming. Further, and anyone who has been attending Disney since the 1970s can attest, water features break and require constant maintenance, parks management HATES having to do the upkeep, and if you have pulse you realize this think is going to break fairly quickly and never get repaired.

 

[AdventureHasAName]

I think that's why I try to always point it out. My very first trip was in 1975 with my family we HATED, LOATHED it so we never went back. It took getting married and having kids to get me back and that was in 1999 so almost 25 years.
I also think some things mean more to others than to me. I really have no horse in the whole "anti-ip" thing. Guardians imo is a great ride, couldn't care less that it's in Epcot.

I'm really glad my family still loves Epcot, and we're just not folks who "long and wax" about the good Ole days.

2 more sleeps until I'm back at the world

I can completely understand why you family would hate EPCOT Center in 1975. There were rapid improvements by the fall of 1982.

 

[Marionnette]

There was an Epcot in 1975? I thought it didn't open until October 1, 1982?

 

[osian]

It's a themed vacation destination where people have fun. Why does it have to be anything more than that

Because it's themed. Otherwise it's a carnival, or generic amusement park. The theme is what elevates it above a generic amusement park and why it's important and it's why people find it frustrating when the theme gets changed or diluted from what they fell in love with in the first place.

 

[mightynine]

The entire attraction is based on edcuating people about the water cycle and provides a fun way of doing it. That's edutainment.

The attraction is based on water effects. The water cycle placards are an attempt to make it edutainment, but are basically secondary and not the main focus.

What part of the water cycle has you play water like strings or give it a high-five?

 

[MrPromey]

The entire attraction is based on edcuating people about the water cycle and provides a fun way of doing it. That's edutainment.

The entire attraction, you say?

Really?

You're going with that?

What does the 16 foot statue of a made-up-by-Disney goddess have to do with educating us?

Maybe you care to share what important educational role water, defying all natural forces to high-five you, has?

Can you tell me what obvious educational value any of this attraction would have if you removed the non-interactive static signs?

In fact, if this had been put in Adventureland, as-is in every respect but those signs, would anyone be suggesting there is anything educational about it at all?

The "edu" part of this "edutainment" feels like an afterthought at best to me to justify it being where it's at - a way to ease people who still expect it into accepting that they don't care about edutainment anymore.

 

[MrPromey]

I think that's why I try to always point it out. My very first trip was in 1975 with my family we HATED, LOATHED it so we never went back. It took getting married and having kids to get me back and that was in 1999 so almost 25 years.
I also think some things mean more to others than to me. I really have no horse in the whole "anti-ip" thing. Guardians imo is a great ride, couldn't care less that it's in Epcot.

I'm really glad my family still loves Epcot, and we're just not folks who "long and wax" about the good Ole days.

2 more sleeps until I'm back at the world

So tail end of the Eisner Era with most of the time in the hands of the Bobs.

That provides a good insight to where you got your base expectations and that tracks.

 

[dreday3]

Some of us who also went a few times in the early 80s don't have a such negative outlook about Epcot. Just saying.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Because it's themed. Otherwise it's a carnival, or generic amusement park. The theme is what elevates it above a generic amusement park and why it's important and it's why people find it frustrating when the theme gets changed or diluted from what they fell in love with in the first place.

Problem is that EPCOT's theme was always problematic from the start.

What is an EPCOT? What is the theme of an EPCOT?

The word is just an acronym of a project that never happened.

It's clear it was meant to mimic a world's fair with all the cultural and technological pavilions. But it never advertised itself as World's-Fair-like.

World Showcase succeeded in that it was a realm of cultural showcases. (Though certainly, the national pavilions were not "communities of tomorrow" -- ironically, they focused on the past.)

Future World.. was a mixed bag for the theme of *FUTURE!* The technological showcases, as good as they were, became outdated and corporate sponsors refused to pony up the dough to update the pavilions. So, they became Disney's financial black hole.

Without sponsors to sponsor, Disney was the sponsor, which naturally led to inclusion of Disney IP and the 'Disneyfication' of EPCOT. (Even though EPCOT was indeed Dinseyfied by being a creation of Disney to being with.) And then came the modern doubling down on IP (which isn't just a Disney thing... almost all theme parks rely heavily on IP [cf. Epic Universe].)

Beside becoming outdated, some of Future Worlds offerings weren't really connected to *the future.*

SSE was a *history* of communication. Figment isn't the Future. Soarin' isn't the Future. Test Track featured contemporary cars, not the future of car tech. (Ironically and sadly, both Future World and Speedway feature gas combustion cars... which are now becoming a sign of bygone times... just a reminder of how tech becomes outdated quickly.) An aquarium isn't futuristic even with a veneer of pretending we descended to an underwater lab... it's still just an aquarium. A good one, but not the aquarium *of the future!*

So, getting back to the theme of a theme park... Epcot's theme has always been problematic. And the educative part of its edutainment wasn't always so educative (petroleum doesn't come from dinosaurs).

Making Epcot like a World's Fair is to invite not having a *theme* except the theme of a World's Fair. World's Fairs don't have a theme except... World's Fair. It's a world celebration. In many ways, the year-round festivals totally fit in that regard.

Out of place would be IPs that have nothing to do with a world celebration. Harmonious tried to tie in the world with it's multi-cultural IPs and use of world languages, and did so poorly. I believe it could be done well.

 

[Ricky Spanish]

 

[eliza61nyc]

So tail end of the Eisner Era with most of the time in the hands of the Bobs.

That provides a good insight to where you got your base expectations and that tracks.

True, you don't miss what you never had, I will say I've watch those videos of old rides and nothing I've watched has made me wistfully long to have seen it.

 

[MisterPenguin]

View attachment 740729

Yes, I see it now...

 

[dreday3]

There is no more future world, it's gone. I get it that's it's missed, I have nostalgia too. But it's gone, not coming back. No more retro-futuristic concrete everywhere.
Now we have different neighborhoods (which really, neighborhoods don't all look the same....) World Celebration, World Showcase, World Discovery and World Nature.

So putting that aside - why doesn't the Journey of Water fit in World Nature?
I get that it doesn't belong in the Epcot of old, but there is no more Epcot of old. I get it's not a ride that people would rather have.

But I think it makes perfect sense to be located in a neighborhood called World Nature.