What is EPCOT now?

TeddyinMO

Well-Known Member
Q. What is EPCOT now?

A. A wonderful place to spend a day and a half of your vacation!

Look, I get EPCOT is not what we remember from the 80s and early 90s.

But with the still amazing World Showcase, several fantastic rides (GOTG, Soarin’, TT, Rat, SE, and FEA), it has a little bit for everyone, and it is a true full day plus park. Plus, the amazing Park icon, AA, LWTL and some incredible sights make EPCOT a unique and beautiful park.

Finish the construction; improve imagination and maybe add one more country with a good D ticket, and EPCOT would rival most any park in the world.

It’ll never be what it once was. That doesn’t mean it’s not wonderful.
 

osian

Well-Known Member
Problem is that EPCOT's theme was always problematic from the start.

What is an EPCOT? What is the theme of an EPCOT?

The word is just an acronym of a project that never happened.

It's clear it was meant to mimic a world's fair with all the cultural and technological pavilions. But it never advertised itself as World's-Fair-like.

World Showcase succeeded in that it was a realm of cultural showcases. (Though certainly, the national pavilions were not "communities of tomorrow" -- ironically, they focused on the past.)

Future World.. was a mixed bag for the theme of *FUTURE!* The technological showcases, as good as they were, became outdated and corporate sponsors refused to pony up the dough to update the pavilions. So, they became Disney's financial black hole.

Without sponsors to sponsor, Disney was the sponsor, which naturally led to inclusion of Disney IP and the 'Disneyfication' of EPCOT. (Even though EPCOT was indeed Dinseyfied by being a creation of Disney to being with.) And then came the modern doubling down on IP (which isn't just a Disney thing... almost all theme parks rely heavily on IP [cf. Epic Universe].)

Beside becoming outdated, some of Future Worlds offerings weren't really connected to *the future.*

SSE was a *history* of communication. Figment isn't the Future. Soarin' isn't the Future. Test Track featured contemporary cars, not the future of car tech. (Ironically and sadly, both Future World and Speedway feature gas combustion cars... which are now becoming a sign of bygone times... just a reminder of how tech becomes outdated quickly.) An aquarium isn't futuristic even with a veneer of pretending we descended to an underwater lab... it's still just an aquarium. A good one, but not the aquarium *of the future!*

...

Making Epcot like a World's Fair is to invite not having a *theme* except the theme of a World's Fair. World's Fairs don't have a theme except... World's Fair. It's a world celebration. In many ways, the year-round festivals totally fit in that regard.

Out of place would be IPs that have nothing to do with a world celebration. Harmonious tried to tie in the world with it's multi-cultural IPs and use of world languages, and did so poorly. I believe it could be done well.

Epcot's theme is indeed the world's fair thing! I don't think it needed to be advertised like that in such literal terms, but it's clear it's an exposition dedicated to international culture, new technology, new industry, new transport and human achievements, all that was indeed promoted. A commentator covering the opening observed that this was somewhere where you would not see any Disney characters. Something completely different from every other cookie-cutter theme park, it was always seen that way, it was never hidden away. You could describe the expos and world fairs as theme parks in that regard. The name/acronym EPCOT is a label, in honour of the original city project which was to have been built around all those aspects. EPCOT Center can be seen as the "visitor centre" for EPCOT, the project, a place where the concepts are to be demonstrated. It's the visitor Center for EPCOT. It makes perfect sense in its original context.

The closest I can get to Epcot in the amusement park world today I think is Futuroscope in France. A friend of mine commented recently on visiting for the first time "What looks like Epcot but has operations like Six Flags?"!

However, we can probably call Epcot a flawed masterpiece. Even on opening, there were a few ideas that never made it, that would have made more sense in the context of "The Future". The Seas and Space pavilions were meant to project how we could eventually live in those environments. However, Horizons summarised those ideas instead. Sometimes in a more whimsical Jules Verne type of way but then ending with serious ideas and plenty of food for thought and contemplation. World of Motion also showed the possiblities of future transport. Universe of Energy showed the future of energy generation. All those pavilions also started off in the history, yes, but that's how to tell a good story! They used to do it well in those days. Spaceship Earth also shows us concepts of the future and again starts off in our past. It's all quite consistent in the way Future World worked and also consistent with the mission statement.

Of course projecting the future will become out of date, hence the need to keep on top of this and make sure the pavilions are refurbed in a timely manner. Unfortunately, refurbing has turned out to mean demolishing and turning into something else, rather than putting the effort into keeping it relevant. It needs to evolve and change, "it's not a musuem", but that doesn't mean it inevitably has to evolve into something else or change for the worse. Neglect and indifference cause the problems. You bring up the ideal example in Speedway! But if we followed the same trajectory, then instead of Speedway being updated with a more appropriate mode of transport, it would be demolished and replaced with an attraction based on a Disney princess, with some loose connection being made to the concept of Tomorrowland to try and make it fit.

World Showcase also shows us a lot of history, yes, because that's crucial to understanding how these nations and cultures developed, in a similar way to the Future World pavilions. But they're also rooted firmly in the present, with contemporary foods, entertainment and goods. Remember though that Epcot, the park, was a product of the imagineers working out how to proceed with it and discussing two separate angles of Walt's visions. they couldn't decide which way to go, so they took the two ideas and joined them, World Showcase isn't about "the Future". It's literally a showcase of nations of the world.

Figment isn't "the future", no. But let's go back to its proper name, Journey into Imagination. This was all about the human condition, how we use our imagination to create things, literally. Works of art and how we use science and develop technology. Human achievements, you see, and possibilties for the future. And what could be more ideal, it had built-in characters! The hit combo of Dreamfinder and Figment. They weren't imported from elsewhere, from a movie that they starred in. Imagination was their story, they told it, and it was our story too. The journey through imagination was scary sometimes, but that's OK. Unfortunately, the point was missed when there was an outcry when the ride was butchered and the characters disappeared. People who remembered the original attraction weren't necesarily mourning Figment exclusively, it was the whole thing. The whole package, Dreamfinder included. It really was a stunning attraction and floored many people, myself included. So the slated new Figment meet 'n greet isn't necessarily going to satisfy Epcot fans, only those who do like cuddly characters to meet. It would be amazing if Dreamfinder also appeared in the meet 'n greet, but since he has been purged from the attraction I don't think that's likely.

Soarin isn't "the future", but remember this is a product of nu-Epcot, and is arguably a relatively decent fit for its pavilion, as are Mission Space and Test Track. Now let's go back and have a think about Frozen Ever After and The Seas With Nemo and Friends...

But of course, it's changing, the subject of this thread. What is it supposed to be now. I think Hollywood Studios has the same problem. Its name now longer fits, nor its mission statement (the Hollywood that never was but always will be?). Used to be true for its original incarnation, but no longer.
 
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dreday3

Well-Known Member
This argument sort of reminds me of the old Eddie Izzard bit about how Great Britain conquered the free world with the careful use of flags.

Is anyone on this board capable of having a discussion without belittling the opinions of other posters?

🤣 Hahahaha! Of course not.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Is anyone on this board capable of having a discussion without belittling the opinions of other posters?

🤣 Hahahaha! Of course not.

Is that what you think I'm doing? 🙄

Fine, I'll put it more simply:

There is a difference between defining an area and thinking of attractions to put in that fit it vs. trying to figure out how to make something you intend to put in fit by drawing new borders that don't make a ton of logical sense and changing names while in no way attempting to match the esthetic of what's there and also not doing anything to the existing esthetic of the "area" it is being associated with to match the new addition.

But I think it makes perfect sense to be located in a neighborhood called World Nature.

Based on Disney's logic, that you seem to fully subscribe to, they could change the name of any "neighborhood" to call it anything they want to fit a new attraction, right?

So lets say they want to add Wakanda to the park; as long as they put it somewhere near CRW so they can draw some sort of boundary that encircles both of them and change the name of that area to the "World MCU Neighborhood" it fits, right?

If not, please explain to me how I'm getting this wrong.
 
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dreday3

Well-Known Member
Is that what you think I'm doing? 🙄

Fine, I'll put it in entirely unambiguous terms for you:

There is a difference between defining an area and thinking of attractions to put in that fit it vs. trying to figure out how to make something you intend to put in fit by drawing new borders that don't make a ton of logical sense and changing names while in no way attempting to match the esthetic of what's there and also not doing anything to the existing esthetic to match the new addition.

I gave a thought out response of my opinion, not trying to belittle anyone else's, you pulled out one line and made a sarcastic response, probably trying to score points with other posters. And you probably did score points, so congrats! 😃
I'm not that dumb. I can figure out the only response wanted here is one where I say "it's a mess!"

Even an eternal optimist like me can only take so much freaking negativity. 😄

Oh, and I see you added the ever so popular insult - you like Disney!
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
I gave a thought out response of my opinion, not trying to belittle anyone else's, you pulled out one line and made a sarcastic response, probably trying to score points with other posters. And you probably did score points, so congrats! 😃
I'm not that dumb. I can figure out the only response wanted here is one where I say "it's a mess!"

No, I've just repeatedly seen you point out how it fits the new name which... Celebration was the name they changed to justify the building that got scrapped, nature was the name they used to justify this thing.

They didn't re-imagine this part of Epcot and come up with attractions to fit this new vision. They wanted to plop things down where they didn't fit and then did their best to try making them sound like they fit.

With what got scrapped, it seems even more blatant.

It's so obvious and seeing that come up again and again is like hearing someone talk about what plants crave.

I think it's a lame argument and I don't respect it at all.

Sorry for not pretending I do.

BTW, where exactly can I cash in these points you speak of? Is there like some sort of prize counter?


Even an eternal optimist like me can only take so much freaking negativity. 😄

Oh, and I see you added the ever so popular insult - you like Disney!

What insult about liking Disney?
 

dreday3

Well-Known Member
No, I've just repeatedly seen you point out how it fits the new name which... Celebration was the name they changed to justify the building that got scrapped, nature was the name they used to justify this thing.

It's so obvious and seeing that come up again and again is like hearing someone talk about what plants crave.

I think it's a lame argument and I don't respect it at all.

Sorry for not pretending I do.

BTW, where exactly can I cash in these points you speak of? Is there like some sort of prize counter?

Repeatedly. I've said it once.

I don't enjoy picking at people or trying to make them feel stupid. I get it, I really don't belong on this board.

More and more I notice just how plain cruel people are to each other and I don't want to add to it.

Have a good night. My post will be deleted anyways
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
Repeatedly. I've said it once.

You're right and I'm sorry. I've conflated you with other people from the Journey of Water thread making that same argument again and again.

You did specifically call it out three different times in the same post but that's not what I had in mind when I made my comment.

But you weren't just stating an opinion, you were throwing out questions - theoretical, perhaps - trying to convince us of a point of view and that point of view appears to exactly mirror that of someone at the company who was apparently tasked with figuring out the bare minimum of what they'd have to do to make these new replacements seem to be cohesive.

Maybe if they'd stuck this between The Land and Living Seas instead of putting it where they did which replaces a defunct side of the spine with nothingness on the other side, it would have fit better. Maybe if they'd made it a pavilion like thing that meshed with those other pavilions, too or just made it an extension of one of the two or even a walkway experience that started at one side and ended at the other - truly bridging them, that would have made some semblance of sense.

Having the area it went into essentially dead for years (by way of the same management) sucked but at least until they started installing this, there was hope they'd fix it.

Maybe if the other big part of this area hadn't been scrapped it would have somehow appeared to fit better.

Who knows?

As for the concrete look, the center of Epcot didn't originally look like that. There used to be a lot more greenery and water which blended into the surrounding theme rather than clashing with it.

To me, what they're doing is going in the opposite direction. Instead of showing a future where society lives in harmony with nature, they're making it an either/or choice, at least in terms of the design.

Anyway, in case you couldn't tell, I'm bitter. ;)

I'm bitter because I'm finding it increasingly difficult to find things enjoyable about what was once, as silly as it sounds, my favorite place (WDW in general).

It wasn't my intent to take the snark out directly on you.

I usually try to save all that for MrPenguin but he put up a do-not-disturb sign this afternoon - something about a pooh which I assume has to do with diarrhea.
 
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Advisable Joseph

Active Member
The front of Epcot is arts and sciences.

Earth sciences on one side, other sciences and technology on the other, and arts and commuication and in between. (Imagination can't really be moved, so they made do the best they could.)
 

AdventureHasAName

Well-Known Member
EPCOT Center (pre-2000) was Disney's Smithsonian; all of the Smithsonian. It was a series of museums. The front half of the park (future world) was science museums, the back half of the park (world showcase) were cultural museums. You had museums on communication, agriculture, marine biology, human biology, transportation, creativity, energy, and eleven different countries. The people who destroyed the park starting around 2000 never understood this and that is why it is now a mismatch of whatever concepts the person controlling the purse strings happened to be hyperfocused on at the time.
 

ohioguy

Well-Known Member
I think you misunderstand the criticism of Moana. The criticism is because it doesn't resemble Future World (circa 1980s) in any form or fashion. The concept may have worked in The Living Seas pavilion, as a type of Image Works-style kids play area, but as built, it's just a playground that doesn't fit with past theming. Further, and anyone who has been attending Disney since the 1970s can attest, water features break and require constant maintenance, parks management HATES having to do the upkeep, and if you have pulse you realize this think is going to break fairly quickly and never get repaired.

But Future World no longer exists. It's been divided into three. One can't live in the past as we march into a more modern Epcot.

Water attractions may break; I can't attest to that. That's on Disney and on guests to demand that it be repaired.
 

ohioguy

Well-Known Member
There is no more future world, it's gone. I get it that's it's missed, I have nostalgia too. But it's gone, not coming back. No more retro-futuristic concrete everywhere.
Now we have different neighborhoods (which really, neighborhoods don't all look the same....) World Celebration, World Showcase, World Discovery and World Nature.

So putting that aside - why doesn't the Journey of Water fit in World Nature? 🤷‍♀️
I get that it doesn't belong in the Epcot of old, but there is no more Epcot of old. I get it's not a ride that people would rather have.

But I think it makes perfect sense to be located in a neighborhood called World Nature.

BINGO!!
 

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