What is Disney doing to its customer life cycle?

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Universal may not be hurt as much as the others you mention. I am bringing up Universal has the theme park rights to Nintendo IPS and is one of the lands coming up for Epic Universe.

Nintendo has been a huge name for video games for 40 years starting with Donkey Kong in 1981. Nintendo in general is something multiple generations heard of. Mario, Donkey Kong, Metroid and Zelda got their starts in the 80s. Nintendo starting Mario Kart, Pokemon, and Kirby in the 90s.

Nintendo for IPS is as big as Harry Potter in my view for Universal.

I only can speak from an IP standpoint since I never went to Universal in my life.

Agree that Uni is in a better position. But I still don’t think they can standalone as the primary destination. It’s easy to spend 7 nights at Disney. Uni, at least for me is a 4 night max trip. That will change when Epic opens. How much it will change? We don’t know yet.

 

[FeelsSoGoodToBeBad]

I have been reading these type threads for a while now, and another idea came to my mind, but I hope it's not true.
It seems disney is raising and pushing prices and money grabs at an intense rate. That seems to be fact. The question is why?
I know it's for money, but in the long run?
I have to ask myself the question: What if they are jumping up the stock prices only to resell at a certain point? That to me would explain why they don't seem to care about the customers complaints. If they are going to sell off the parks at some point to make mega bucks for themselves and their investors, is that their plan?
I know this is "way out there" and I hope it's not true, but you never know in this day and age what they will do.
It just seems that they are ruining their fantastic brand name, taking away, raising everything in sight and that they should have some concern of the long term effect this will have on disney's bottom line.
Maybe I have too much time to think these things right now because I am at home with covid19 and on quarantine for several more days. But this idea did cross my mind. I know it's absurd, but...
What do you all think?

Unfortunately, I think "absurd" is too strong a word. I think "highly unlikely" or "far-fetched" would be a better descriptor. "Absurd" makes it sound like this scenario is almost completely outside the realm of possibility, but the more I think about it, it doesn't feel like it is anymore.

Hope you recover quickly and suffer no long term effects, @Minnesota disney fan!

 

[scoobygirl39541]

You’re right. You should not be helping anyone book a Disney trip. Refer them to a travel agent with a positive attitude so they have a shot at a good time.

Ouch. But yes, I won't be because I can no longer endorse the product. It's too depressing to sit there and say no you can't do that anymore, no that's gone, no they don't offer that, now you have to pay for that, oh by the way... Prices have skyrocketed.

Good luck to the travel agent.

 

[drizgirl]

Universal may not be hurt as much as the others you mention. I am bringing up Universal has the theme park rights to Nintendo IPS and is one of the lands coming up for Epic Universe.

Nintendo has been a huge name for video games for 40 years starting with Donkey Kong in 1981. Nintendo in general is something multiple generations heard of. Mario, Donkey Kong, Metroid and Zelda got their starts in the 80s. Nintendo starting Mario Kart, Pokemon, and Kirby in the 90s.

Nintendo for IPS is as big as Harry Potter in my view for Universal.

I only can speak from an IP standpoint since I never went to Universal in my life.

Agree 100%. Nintendo is the nostalgia shared by many now, much in the same way watching Wonderful World of Disney used to be back in the day.

 

[drizgirl]

I have been reading these type threads for a while now, and another idea came to my mind, but I hope it's not true.
It seems disney is raising and pushing prices and money grabs at an intense rate. That seems to be fact. The question is why?
I know it's for money, but in the long run?
I have to ask myself the question: What if they are jumping up the stock prices only to resell at a certain point? That to me would explain why they don't seem to care about the customers complaints. If they are going to sell off the parks at some point to make mega bucks for themselves and their investors, is that their plan?
I know this is "way out there" and I hope it's not true, but you never know in this day and age what they will do.
It just seems that they are ruining their fantastic brand name, taking away, raising everything in sight and that they should have some concern of the long term effect this will have on disney's bottom line.
Maybe I have too much time to think these things right now because I am at home with covid19 and on quarantine for several more days. But this idea did cross my mind. I know it's absurd, but...
What do you all think?

Oh gosh. I hope you recover quickly!

 

[ppete1975]

That is exactly how Disney feels. They know they can push this till the doors fall off. The mindset is simple really. Disney pushes the charge more, give less strategy as absolutely far as possible. If they do hit the day of reckoning, they know they have enough fan nostalgia to back off a bit, throw in a free cupcake and 1 lightning lane, and BAM! The fans are running back in droves. No matter what, its a win for them.

And its the same thing as what they did with the early star wars movies and some of the new spinoffs they have talked about. Hiring people who are not lovers of the franchise (yes they have semi righted the ship but there are rumors some more projects with people who have never even seen the movies).
They hire people to be put in charge who arent fans, who have no emotional connection. They bleed the corpse which gets them high marks from who matters to them (shareholders), then by the time it crashes they can retire. Then they will revamp a few things and bring in new blood just long enough to stabilize then repeat.

 

[ppete1975]

I'm not sure about that 5 to take their place stuff. If there are 5 times more people wanting to go right now to take my place, why aren't they going already? Yes, the world is big, but as they increasingly charge prices that eliminate a portion of the 5 that wanted to go, where is the slack made up? Theme parks aren't for everyone except those of us that are theme park lovers. We do not comprise the whole world. There is a breaking point. I have no idea where it is, but I know that it reached me after 39 years of loyal, must do, involvement. Taking into account that I am not part of the wealthy set, I know there are others with unlimited funds. I keep thinking that if I were part of that group, I think that myself and my yacht would have found a much less stressful and much more impressive place to travel too. The wealthy are not going to be going to the country club and bragging to Jonathan and Babs that they spent the winter in WDW hobnobbing with college students working for minimum wage wearing foam heads of Mickey, Minnie and Goofy.

Doesnt seem to be an end in sight to the "5" (yes eventually it will run dry) but we just came out of a world wide pandemic, and people came in droves and it didnt matter what they removed or what restrictions were placed, how much less you got for your dollar. They only increased prices and it was still way more packed than they should have allowed. Yes attendance is down right now due to school starting (from what ive heard). But I think the world is alot different than even 2001 and the last recession. People want Disney, and are willing to to go into debt. (if they have to of course)

 

[ppete1975]

Sorry not a valid analysis. Every time a dissatisfied / disenchanted / unhappy guest leaves negative word goes out. Be it previous long time guests or one time / 1st time guests that did not get the experience they wanted, the word get's out. Couple that with other entertainment / vacation venues actively working to erode Disney's market share of potential guests. I would say the ratio is more like for every 5 lost maybe gain 3 or on the outside 4. On holidays or special (short lived) time periods during the year there will be a few days of crowd but the trend is already visible for a diminishing amount of guests.

sorry not a valid analysis, the pr machine is too powerful and the world too small now. We just came out of a worldwide pandemic with reduced offerings, new rules and higher prices and they filled the parks more than they should have been. The holidays are going to be nuts, and next spring summer they are going to break records. In 10 -20 years when the leaders of today are retired they will see the impact but its not coming anytime soon.

Disney isnt the local burger king. And if you look at how many people havent even researched their trip now, and have no idea there is more than the MK i have no faith in them to listen to anyone not to go. They are going to go no matter who tells them. And most of us on here that complain and say they will never go again... will.

Pixie dust is real, either nostalgia or the pr train its a very real thing.

 

[ParentsOf4]

The company's strategy became twofold: spread out attendance over the year so that there is no overly quiet (early January, most of September) or overly busy (Christmas - New Year, Spring Break, etc) time, in order to create a more enjoyable guest experience while avoiding unnecessary labor costs due to low attendance. Part two was to make more money with fewer guests.

To be clear, corporate Disney does not want to reduce attendance This is an online myth that seems to get repeated so often that people start to believe it.

Rather, the goal is to stratify the Guest experience into those who are willing to pay more for a better experience and those who are not.

Do you want to go when the parks are less crowded? Either stay at a Deluxe Resort and experience Extended Evening Hours, or pay for one of the specially ticketed events such as Boo Bash. Otherwise, go when the theme parks are as crowded as ever.

Do you want to experience Cinderella's Royal Table? Pay the $62 plus tax & gratuity. Otherwise, go eat at an overcrowded Quick Service restaurant.

Do you want to skip Standby lines? Pay $15 for Genie+ and $10-$25 for Individual Attraction Selections. Otherwise, stand in line.

There's a percentage of WDW Guests who are willing to pay "more." The goal is not to reduce attendance. The goal is to appeal to those Guests who are willing to pay "more."

 

[Brian]

To be clear, corporate Disney does not want to reduce attendance This is an online myth that seems to get repeated so often that people start to believe it.

A couple things to unpack here:

Disney has sought to reduce crowding, not necessarily attendance. Of course, they are one and the same, but if you refer back to "part one" of the strategy I outlined, you'll see that it involved date-based ticketing, targeted room/package discounts, and special events. Their hope is that they'll have a similar amount of guests annually, just spread out to reduce crowding (which creates a better overall guest experience), but recognize that they will price some folks out since not everyone can attend during the "off-peak season," leading to reduced annual attendance.

The question then becomes how to make money with fewer guests. I saw their strategy play out right before my eyes during my many years working for the company in a variety of operational and office roles. Examples of this strategy include much of what you cited, with the most recent being Lightning Lanes/Genie+. If you cater to the folks who won't bat an eye at overpriced table service every night, firework cruises, VIP tours and Deluxe resort suites, you can easily close that gap, and even exceed it. Not to mention that this demographic of guest is good for business no matter what the goal is, so long as you're looking to make more money, so why not target them?

So would I say that Disney actively sought out/seeks to reduce attendance? No. If they wanted to, they have a shiny new reservation system they can set to any number they want. It has been and continues to be about reducing crowding (think the week between Christmas and New Year) by spreading out attendance. However, knowing that they will lose guests as a result of this strategy, making more money with fewer guests becomes an imperative.

 

[paul436]

So when do customers react en mass? What is the timespan for that positive/negative feedback loop (retention, advocacy)?

I have a vacation planned in November. Plans were in place before the new Genie+ system was announced.

The tipping point for me would be whether or not I can enjoy the attractions without paying extra for that. The FP seemed fine before but I don't think it so great that I should have pay for it now. Even before Genie+, getting on the new SW ride was a potential crap shoot. Why should I pay all this money to go there if I can't get access to the very things I'm paying to enjoy?!

So that would be it for me. I'll keep going as long as I can get on the rides (at no additional cost). The cost of the vacation is higher enough as is. Why should I pay extra to actually get the things I paid for originally.

 

[NickMaio]

Long time lurker here (10+ years) and love the info and insight. What a wealth of knowledge some of the veterans bring.

I finally felt compelled to post a perspective and question.

I am stunned by the Disney parks business model over the last 15+ years. The Decline in value has been stunning and accelerating. The causes seem obvious, but Disney continues to accelerate down this path. I’m clearly not alone in in this view (anecdotally, this website and all of my family / friends that are/were huge Disney fans)

I’ve begun to wonder what the lag time is for their actions. WHEN will customers leave the business. The 5 stage customer life cycle leads me to believe that their are 5-10 years (??) between actions and consequence to the parks…sort of like car shoppers? The negative experience has to erode (4) retention and (5) advocacy. But if Disney thinks it’s much shorter than that, they will be far Down the wrong path and in a huge hole before they really feel it (Not unlike the domestic auto brands)..

I have been loyal, patient and and strong advocate Of Disney Parks. But I no longer advocate (at all) and we are actively shifting vacation patterns away from Disney (retention). The last few years and this one in particular have finally crossed the line. No need to go into extra detail, but the short list of observations…
- pricing increases seem far higher than inflation
- from “free” to “fee” changes all over the place…nickel and diming on a grand scale
- constant cuts of the “little things” like shows, entertainment
- investment in digital overlays (DME, fp+, etc) instead of rides and attractions
- investment in tent pole rides in mediocre lands with limited capacity or reliability
- direction of EPCOT is a mess…world showcase lagoon barges are hideous
- hard to believe the huge Hollywood studios investment yielded a smaller park with few rides
- deluxe hotel pricing is bizarro-world and seem to be a feeder to their DVC sales…which I think is ultimately killing their gross operating margins.
I could go on…admittedly some of this is personal preference…

So when do customers react en mass? What is the timespan for that positive/negative feedback loop (retention, advocacy)?

We have gone every summer for over 16 years........about 4 years ago we stopped going.
We found that there is a GROWING divide between those who pay more get a better experience.
Now this was always the case with WDW - but it was not as in your face. WDW did a great job to make every paying customer feel special and appreciated.
Now - - - not so much.
Also the annual nickel and diming people and skyrocketing extra special event ticket costs really rubs salt in a constantly healing wound.

Will we go back to WDW - yes - however the days of going every summer are over. We will probably go every 5-10 years.

Making the customer feel appreciated and wanted, in the past, was always a WDW mainstay. Which is why we went so often.

I started going annually as a child with my parents and sister at the age of 3- early 80's.
So to not want to go back every year is HUGE feeling for me.

I hope that things change- - - however, the people at the wheel seem to like the direction they are taking the parks in right now.
I applaud others to follow suit and go elsewhere...........there are other companies that value our business.

 

[Andrew25]

To be clear, corporate Disney does not want to reduce attendance This is an online myth that seems to get repeated so often that people start to believe it.

Rather, the goal is to stratify the Guest experience into those who are willing to pay more for a better experience and those who are not.

Do you want to go when the parks are less crowded? Either stay at a Deluxe Resort and experience Extended Evening Hours, or pay for one of the specially ticketed events such as Boo Bash. Otherwise, go when the theme parks are as crowded as ever.

Do you want to experience Cinderella's Royal Table? Pay the $62 plus tax & gratuity. Otherwise, go eat at an overcrowded Quick Service restaurant.

Do you want to skip Standby lines? Pay $15 for Genie+ and $10-$25 for Individual Attraction Selections. Otherwise, stand in line.

There's a percentage of WDW Guests who are willing to pay "more." The goal is not to reduce attendance. The goal is to appeal to those Guests who are willing to pay "more."

Well said. I never bought the "Disney is trying to lower attendance for the super rich" idea. It's always been keeping attendance at the same level (and more year over year) and trying to upcharge you for extra "magic".

Charge more for APs while offering less because most APs will pay anyway. And the APs you lose are covered by those that stick around.
Charge that once in a lifetime family for their one ride on Space Mountain so they can make their Genie+ reservation for Seven Dwarfs.

If I were Universal, I would be expediting several hotels in the Epic Universe site. I just don't see how someone can willingly pay more than $120+ for a stay at a Disney Value.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Doesnt seem to be an end in sight to the "5" (yes eventually it will run dry) but we just came out of a world wide pandemic, and people came in droves and it didnt matter what they removed or what restrictions were placed, how much less you got for your dollar. They only increased prices and it was still way more packed than they should have allowed. Yes attendance is down right now due to school starting (from what ive heard). But I think the world is alot different than even 2001 and the last recession. People want Disney, and are willing to to go into debt. (if they have to of course)

That's good for now, but it won't last forever. Besides isn't that the number that has been traditionally used to keep CM's quiet, behaving themselves and never asking for more? Typical management reply would be there are 5 others waiting to take your job. You cannot gauge customer numbers like that. There is no need for duplication concern with customers, I can be there or not be there and if they want to be there all they have to do is show up. Unless the parks are full, no one is excluded, but they all have to actually get there to mean anything. In other words I don't need to be replaced, we can all be there at the same time. So, where are they? Why aren't they there right now?

 

[ParentsOf4]

A couple things to unpack here:

Disney has sought to reduce crowding, not necessarily attendance. Of course, they are one and the same, but if you refer back to "part one" of the strategy I outlined, you'll see that it involved date-based ticketing, targeted room/package discounts, and special events. Their hope is that they'll have a similar amount of guests annually, just spread out to reduce crowding (which creates a better overall guest experience), but recognize that they will price some folks out since not everyone can attend during the "off-peak season," leading to reduced annual attend.

Disney is not seeking to reduce crowding. They are seeking to increase crowding on days that the parks are less crowded.

Think of Disney as a Major League Baseball team. Like an MLB team, Disney has millions of tickets to sell every year. Like an MLB team, if it were up to the organization, the ball/theme park would be full every day of the year.

Who wants empty seats?

However, a Saturday game is much more popular than a Wednesday game. The team has to try harder to sell Wednesday tickets, while it can charge a premium for Saturday tickets. I recently went to an Atlanta Braves Wednesday night game for $15 and the stadium was packed! But the stadium would not have been if those seats were $50.

The same is true with the location of the seats. Everyone would buy tickets behind the home plate if they cost $25. Instead, a team like the Red Sox will charge $500 for a Saturday box seat against the Yankees (if you can even find one for sale) but will charge $21 for a Tuesday night bleacher seat against the Mets (seats still available). Some are willing to pay $500 for the best seats on the best days, while others are willing to pay only $21. You need both the $500 and $21 seats full, but you want to maximize revenue from every single seat. Same home team. Same ballpark. Same experience. Vastly different prices.

Disney is trying to do the same. You want to experience the rides in the best way possible? Pay up your $15 for Genie+. Pay up your $10 to $25 for Individual Attraction Purchases. You want to be cheap about it? Go wait in the Standby line.

Disney wants to find those who are willing to pay $50 per day per person for a better experience and charge them $50 for that better experience. If demand is high, Disney is going to find out who is willing to pay $75 per day per person for that better experience. If demand is still high, it will be $100.

But at no time is Disney trying to reduce crowding.

Disney wants all 4 theme parks completely full all the time.

And Disney wants each Guest to pay the most they are willing to pay for the level of experience they want.

That's how Disney works. That's how all service businesses work.

 

[Ayla]

I think most people are trying to recover their 2020 vacations the best they can and after that, they're out. Maybe not out permanently, but out long enough to not make it meaningful for future generations. I think the rest of this year and especially October/holidays will have wdw singing and dancing at how amazing they're doing. However, they're going to be hurting in 2022 and especially future generations.

Obviously I'm a HUGE Disney nut (AP/DVC) who had planned MANY Disney vacations for people and encouraged people to go. I'm supposed to help my cousins plan a first visit in June, and I'm thinking of trying to persuade them to go somewhere else. I just can't see it being worth it for their family. 2 kids, ages 5 and 3. Crazy to discourage right? Up charges, no princess makeovers, no character dining, no character meets at all, no parades, limited experiences everywhere, paid fastpass for SOME rides then an additional fee on top, limited capacity restaurants so impossible to get reservations, no free magical express, they have to lug all their luggage from the airport... I mean I can just keep going on and on. How can I "sell" a trip to these people? It's at the point where I really don't want to put my cousins through is.

That begins the downfall for Disney IMO. People like me, starting to think like that.

I am the same. I've helped at least 5 families, plus my own extended family, plan trips in the past. That is no more. I've had people ask me recently what's going on with Disney because they are thinking about planning another trip for next year.

I tell them about recent changes (no DME for next year, resort parking fees (which are not new, but new to them), hotel, food and ticket price increases, no EMH, park reservations and the biggie, Genie+). There is no bias involved on my part, just a "hey, these things have changed since your last visit" information and reactions have varied, but every. single. one. has been negative.

 

[jloucks]

To be clear, corporate Disney does not want to reduce attendance This is an online myth that seems to get repeated so often that people start to believe it.

Rather, the goal is to stratify the Guest experience into those who are willing to pay more for a better experience and those who are not.

Do you want to go when the parks are less crowded? Either stay at a Deluxe Resort and experience Extended Evening Hours, or pay for one of the specially ticketed events such as Boo Bash. Otherwise, go when the theme parks are as crowded as ever.

Do you want to experience Cinderella's Royal Table? Pay the $62 plus tax & gratuity. Otherwise, go eat at an overcrowded Quick Service restaurant.

Do you want to skip Standby lines? Pay $15 for Genie+ and $10-$25 for Individual Attraction Selections. Otherwise, stand in line.

There's a percentage of WDW Guests who are willing to pay "more." The goal is not to reduce attendance. The goal is to appeal to those Guests who are willing to pay "more."

This is very well said. It is also what WDW should do to maximize profits. Buuuut, I can tell you, as a customer who is willing to pay al lot extra to avoid crowds, you cannot.. I would if I could.

Now, true, the special ticket events are nice....nicer... but that is too small a portion of the day to entice a visit to Florida. And, the last one we went to, was pretty cracking crowded. Like, way more than I personally thought appropriate for a ticketed event. I pitched an idea before where WDW would make several weeks a year double price weeks with half size crowds. I would book that right now if it were realty. But it has to be the entire week, not just a couple nights and mornings.

Also, the special morning hours for on-site visitors are nice, but just like the ticketed events, the window is tiny in relation to the time you will spend in florida. Just not worth it. Besides, who wants to get up at the boat-crack of dawn on vacation?! Other than my wife.

And the restaurants, even the nice ones, are so incredibly crowded that I don't see demand that high if you are trying to avoid mobs. (I don't know much about the royal table, but unless you left off a decimal point and it's $162 a person, I don't see it making a difference.)

Genie sounds like a pretty good thing. I know a lot are not too fond of the concept, but I am intrigued.

 

[Brian]

Disney is not seeking to reduce crowding.

That is factually incorrect. In my time with the company, I collaborated on a number of projects where one of the objectives was to reduce crowding on the busiest days of the year.

With that said, I don't see the point in trying to convince others of my point, especially on trivial matters such as these. After all, this is a fan forum and we're all here for fun. I presented my perspective on the first page of this thread, and feel that it is an accurate summation of the current business strategy. You are welcome to your own perspective and opinion, if you feel so inclined. Have a magical day!

 

[Sith196]

I've been a bit of a lurker here for the past couple months and have read over a lot of these threads bashing Disney for recent decision making. I'm hoping to offer some perspectives that may not be getting considered here.

I got to go for the first time in June of 2021. Unfortunately a lot of stuff was not back up and running yet and I did feel a bit ripped off ticket wise. That said, I recognize they were working towards bringing stuff back and have a trip planned for November of 2022 to try and get to some of things my wife and I missed. So despite the cost increases, Disney created a repeat customer in us, but I never got the experience of going when a lot more stuff was included at no extra charge. We're hoping to take kids in a few years because I personally felt magic was still there. Additionally, as someone that does not tolerate thrill rides/roller coasters, Disney has a lot I can do compared to other parks such as the local to me Hersheypark.

So I'm not sure Disney is hurting its customer life cycle as much as those that are angry truly want them to be. It's still a better value than, say, an NFL ticket or a NASCAR ticket - and those tickets sure aren't reducing in cost either.

I do think that people need to start being a little more grateful for even getting a chance to visit Disney while they were growing up or going every few years though. My parents could never even consider taking me to Disney. Honestly, it took kind of a perfect storm of things for my wife and I to even be able to go with my wife's family (we mapped out a plan for our trip for next year and do not need to rely on a perfect storm this time). Be a little grateful you got to have such a wonderful experience growing up. Not all of us were that lucky, although I can feel for you that some of the magic for you is now gone - there's millions of people that will never even be able to experience any of the magic.

The main thing I want to bring up though is that costs to maintain and operate are going up. That's for everything. Disney is not immune to the cost of food, materials, labor, etc. going up. They're going to adjust accordingly. My car insurance just went up despite no claims for 6 years and I was basically told I have to deal with it because the company's costs are going up. Disney has to pay those costs too, and like any consumer would do they're going to cut expenses to cover them, or go looking for how to make more money, or both. Just like most of us are not immune to the cost of all that stuff going up, Disney isn't either. Regarding the Magical Express specifically, Disney did not own that. Unless we know what the new contract details were for Mears to continue operating it the way Disney wanted, we really don't know who's at fault there. For example, if Mears was trying to increase Disney's cost by a large percentage why shouldn't Disney say no, especially with a push for the high speed rail line to fill that gap and amid other costs rising?

I know not many here are going to agree with the things I've said, but they are a different perspective I think was worth sharing.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

That is factually incorrect. In my time with the company, I collaborated on a number of projects where one of the objectives was to reduce crowding on the busiest days of the year.

With that said, I don't see the point in trying to convince others of my point, especially on trivial matters such as these. After all, this is a fan forum and we're all here for fun. I presented my perspective on the first page of this thread, and feel that it is an accurate summation of the current business strategy. You are welcome to your own perspective and opinion, if you feel so inclined. Have a magical day!

Wouldn't keeping the parks open later help with crowding? It wasn't more than 10 or so years ago you could be an on-site guest paying for no extra times and going during an off time of the year like early November and STILL be out at 1AM doing rides at the MK.