What is Disney doing to its customer life cycle?

[Club Cooloholic]

I think what's happened is that the whole reason we went to and enjoyed Disney parks in the first place has been eroded away over the years. Magical little moments, performers, costumed characters, have all become fewer. The dessert parties were a disgusting cash grab, but at least you could ignore them easily, now you want to ride Tron? Pony up suckers. Seriously there is starting to be little difference between the local carnival and WDW in terms of customer service. Yes we know they always wanted our money, but at least we felt they put on the best "show" to get it. Now I feel like they aren't even trying, they just have their hand out.
Eventually the people that remember that "magic" will maybe give up it's ever coming back.

 

[erasure fan1]

The problem is we look at WDW from our own perspective while Disney has to look at the parks from multiple generations perspectives.

That's the real question. Is Disney creating the same nostalgia for the new generation? If not, they could have some real problems down the road. It's a problem that won't show its face for maybe 15yrs or so. Disney is gambling on the idea that nothing they do can break the Disney nostalgia addiction. So far, that has been a good bet.

 

[Robbiem]

The problem is we look at WDW from our own perspective while Disney has to look at the parks from multiple generations perspectives.

But are they anymore? Old Disney built on the Walt / Roy model of a family business. Make people think they get really good value for money and they will come back with their children building a business for the next generation.

Current Disney is short term managers who are incentivised over a much shorter term. They aren’t going to be around in 20 years when today’s kids bring their children so they want all the money now. Why build a long term business of taking ten bucks a year forever when you can get a bigger bonus taking thirty bucks on and moving on to somewhere else

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Long time lurker here (10+ years) and love the info and insight. What a wealth of knowledge some of the veterans bring.

I finally felt compelled to post a perspective and question.

I am stunned by the Disney parks business model over the last 15+ years. The Decline in value has been stunning and accelerating. The causes seem obvious, but Disney continues to accelerate down this path. I’m clearly not alone in in this view (anecdotally, this website and all of my family / friends that are/were huge Disney fans)

I’ve begun to wonder what the lag time is for their actions. WHEN will customers leave the business. The 5 stage customer life cycle leads me to believe that their are 5-10 years (??) between actions and consequence to the parks…sort of like car shoppers? The negative experience has to erode (4) retention and (5) advocacy. But if Disney thinks it’s much shorter than that, they will be far Down the wrong path and in a huge hole before they really feel it (Not unlike the domestic auto brands)..

I have been loyal, patient and and strong advocate Of Disney Parks. But I no longer advocate (at all) and we are actively shifting vacation patterns away from Disney (retention). The last few years and this one in particular have finally crossed the line. No need to go into extra detail, but the short list of observations…
- pricing increases seem far higher than inflation
- from “free” to “fee” changes all over the place…nickel and diming on a grand scale
- constant cuts of the “little things” like shows, entertainment
- investment in digital overlays (DME, fp+, etc) instead of rides and attractions
- investment in tent pole rides in mediocre lands with limited capacity or reliability
- direction of EPCOT is a mess…world showcase lagoon barges are hideous
- hard to believe the huge Hollywood studios investment yielded a smaller park with few rides
- deluxe hotel pricing is bizarro-world and seem to be a feeder to their DVC sales…which I think is ultimately killing their gross operating margins.
I could go on…admittedly some of this is personal preference…

So when do customers react en mass? What is the timespan for that positive/negative feedback loop (retention, advocacy)?

If you can write an OP this composed and intelligent, including '5-stage customer life cycle', 'retention and advocacy', then TWDC has already moved on from you. Towards different demographies. WDW is no longer developed and operated with you in mind.

 

[CP_alum08]

I can tell you it’s already happening for me. It’s been just over 5 years since my wife and I have been to WDW. I had the date marked on my calendar for a long time of when I could book a room for October 1st to be there for the 50th, but then changed our minds because we felt like it wasn’t going to be special enough.

About a month ago I started looking at Universal resorts to see what they looked like. Mostly out of curiosity. The ‘bang for your buck’ seems much greater and for the first time ever, we’re leaning towards taking a Uni vacation next year instead of a WDW one.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

But are they anymore? Old Disney built on the Walt / Roy model of a family business. Make people think they get really good value for money and they will come back with their children building a business for the next generation.

Current Disney is short term managers who are incentivised over a much shorter term. They aren’t going to be around in 20 years when today’s kids bring their children so they want all the money now. Why build a long term business of taking ten bucks a year forever when you can get a bigger bonus taking thirty bucks on and moving on to somewhere else

Exactly. But the whole Disney marketing churn can be effected by these policies. The toys, the movies, maybe you just don't have quite the "love" for a place that is trying to bilk you and you don't feel like populating your home and kids bedrooms with all things Disney after your last WDW visit where you paid 100 bucks extra for the privilege for the family to ride Tron(btw people will really be sore if they end up doing this, rode it in Shanghai and it was very very OK, not amazing).

 

[todd23]

This may have already been stated, but I think Disney will eventually be hurt by the lack of value they're creating. My first trip as an adult was in 2007. It was expensive, but I felt like I got value out of the trip. I didn't feel like I was nickel and dimed to death. It was basically one cost (hotel, tickets, dining) in one, without a lot of additions once I got there. And it was cool that things like Magical Express were included for "free." I eventually became hooked and am now generally immune to price increases, especially as my financial situation has stabilized as I advance in my career.

However, those that are making their first trips now (my 2007), will not receive the same perceived value and will not turn into lifelong diehards. That is where Disney is hurting itself.

 

[thomas998]

If Disney did something that tipped me towards too negative I'd up and stop going immediately.
That has not happened and I'm not sure if/when it will.
Probably not the answer you were looking for but the answer is not as simple as a "at this point mass amount of customers will stop going".
Its a very individualized and subjective answer.

But then the question is whether you go as often now as you once did. I know we went from 2 trips a year that were 100% Disney hotel to 1 every year or sometimes every other year and no longer at a Disney hotel. Not that we are trying to safe money with offsite hotels either because we now use Universal hotels and just drive to Disney, that's because Disney's hotels have become such stinkers for the money that I just can't justify them.

Of course the real problem is Disney has an ever growing population of new people that have never been and will not know they are being ripped off royally until their first trip which will potentially be their last... So it temper the ability of visitors to signal their disgust with anything Disney does.

 

[Goofyernmost]

The problem with that logic unfortunately, is that for every previous customer they lose there are 5 to take their place. Those 5 this is the Disney they know. Right now its boom time for first timers and that line has no sign of slowing down. And with price increases and other things even if attendance decreases (it wont) that just makes more people wanting to come and prob makes it more comfortable. Long term you will have middle class and lower going every 4-7 years upper middle and above every 1-2 years and residents fill in the rest.

I'm not sure about that 5 to take their place stuff. If there are 5 times more people wanting to go right now to take my place, why aren't they going already? Yes, the world is big, but as they increasingly charge prices that eliminate a portion of the 5 that wanted to go, where is the slack made up? Theme parks aren't for everyone except those of us that are theme park lovers. We do not comprise the whole world. There is a breaking point. I have no idea where it is, but I know that it reached me after 39 years of loyal, must do, involvement. Taking into account that I am not part of the wealthy set, I know there are others with unlimited funds. I keep thinking that if I were part of that group, I think that myself and my yacht would have found a much less stressful and much more impressive place to travel too. The wealthy are not going to be going to the country club and bragging to Thurston and Babs that they spent the winter in WDW hobnobbing with college students working for minimum wage wearing foam heads of Mickey, Minnie and Goofy.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

Is Disney creating the same nostalgia for the new generation?

For me, Disney has always been a place that created memories. Memories of spending time there as a kid with my parents and grandparents (who have all passed). I was invested. And I wanted to share that experience with my kids. Thus, investing some more into making new memories. The nostalgia for things like Toad, Horizons, World of Motion etc. was nice - but it wasn't the primary motivating factor.

The next generation of Disney guests will not have the attachment nor the investment in the brand the way the last generation did. I think that is the danger to Disney.

 

[GimpYancIent]

The problem with that logic unfortunately, is that for every previous customer they lose there are 5 to take their place. Those 5 this is the Disney they know. Right now its boom time for first timers and that line has no sign of slowing down. And with price increases and other things even if attendance decreases (it wont) that just makes more people wanting to come and prob makes it more comfortable. Long term you will have middle class and lower going every 4-7 years upper middle and above every 1-2 years and residents fill in the rest.

Sorry not a valid analysis. Every time a dissatisfied / disenchanted / unhappy guest leaves negative word goes out. Be it previous long time guests or one time / 1st time guests that did not get the experience they wanted, the word get's out. Couple that with other entertainment / vacation venues actively working to erode Disney's market share of potential guests. I would say the ratio is more like for every 5 lost maybe gain 3 or on the outside 4. On holidays or special (short lived) time periods during the year there will be a few days of crowd but the trend is already visible for a diminishing amount of guests.

 

[Tony the Tigger]

If you can write an OP this composed and intelligent, including '5-stage customer life cycle', 'retention and advocacy', then TWDC has already moved on from you. Towards different demographies. WDW is no longer developed and operated with you in mind.

So…WDW is for stupid people, now?

That’s a new one.

 

[mysto]

Where else you gonna go? I'd love to see some pressure on them as many are wishing for but I don't expect it.

Did the quality of boxed mac and cheese ever increase? No, it incredibly continues to decline. Typical behavior of a corporation. The "store brand" copy is the only path back to the old world. Universal is the "store brand" copy as many are realizing.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

What I find interesting is that if you asked people to define "What a Vacation is to you" - you'd get a lot of responses like:

Getting away from the stress of the day-to-day and having a stress free week with my family. Enjoying things at our own pace. Not having to plan things. Being able to set my own schedule. Not having commitments that I'm worried about fulfilling.

Ironically, Disney has introduced a counter to all of that - over the past few years. It's one thing to plan for a vacation. Check off the things you want to experience, the places you want to eat, the things you want to try - But nobody wants to be put in a position where they (or the place they plan on visiting) are having to micro-manage every aspect of their time on a "vacation".

And I'm not even talking about price-points here. This is all about the "experience".

 

[Tony the Tigger]

What I find interesting is that if you asked people to define "What a Vacation is to you" - you'd get a lot of responses like:

Getting away from the stress of the day-to-day and having a stress free week with my family. Enjoying things at our own pace. Not having to plan things. Being able to set my own schedule. Not having commitments that I'm worried about fulfilling.

Ironically, Disney has introduced a counter to all of that - over the past few years. It's one thing to plan for a vacation. Check off the things you want to experience, the places you want to eat, the things you want to try - But nobody wants to be put in a position where they (or the place they plan on visiting) are having to micro-manage every aspect of their time on a "vacation".

And I'm not even talking about price-points here. This is all about the "experience".

But...with the exception of the "once in a lifetime" visitors, putting that planning pressure on yourself is a choice.

We don't have to get everything we want to be happy - in life, or at WDW.

I had been twice since Star Wars Land opened (and Star Wars is more important than Disney to me) and hadn't been able to ride anything. OK, there's always next time. (Our last recent trip was "next time" and we did it all.)

Pick a couple of "must do" restaurants in advance, and leave the rest to chance. Maybe you'll get another must-do at the last minute; maybe you won't.

Some people choose to get upset over things like that. That's on them.

We minimize the stress as much as possible. It can be done. I realize it can also be different for people who invest more into a given trip, but the basic, "Be happy with what you've got" holds.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

But...with the exception of the "once in a lifetime" visitors, putting that planning pressure on yourself is a choice.

We don't have to get everything we want to be happy - in life, or at WDW.

I had been twice since Star Wars Land opened (and Star Wars is more important than Disney to me) and hadn't been able to ride anything. OK, there's always next time. (Our last recent trip was "next time" and we did it all.)

Pick a couple of "must do" restaurants in advance, and leave the rest to chance. Maybe you'll get another must-do at the last minute; maybe you won't.

Some people choose to get upset over things like that. That's on them.

We minimize the stress as much as possible. It can be done. I realize it can also be different for people who invest more into a given trip, but the basic, "Be happy with what you've got" holds.

My thought process is similar to yours. We're both APs and if I miss riding Splash this trip - I'll hit it next trip.

Just reminiscing a bit about my trips as a kid. Pre FP, MDE, and the micromanagement aspect. Most stressful part of the day was getting there at rope drop. We'd hit 3, maybe 4 rides with minimal wait - grab a late breakfast at Tony's around 10:30am go on few more rides - go back to the resort - hit the pool - get back to the park at 6pm - couple of rides - dinner - parade - then the mad dash near closing for a few more rides.

Could usually get 10-15 rides in, have time in the pool, eat at a couple of quality places in a day, and watch a parade. With no micro-managing, no worrying about "ride windows". Today, to accomplish all of that it takes weeks of planning, continually refreshing apps, and relying on some luck.

One take on your SW comment: "Star Wars is more important to me than Disney Star Wars".

 

[Queen of the WDW Scene]

But then the question is whether you go as often now as you once did. I know we went from 2 trips a year that were 100% Disney hotel to 1 every year or sometimes every other year and no longer at a Disney hotel. Not that we are trying to safe money with offsite hotels either because we now use Universal hotels and just drive to Disney, that's because Disney's hotels have become such stinkers for the money that I just can't justify them.

Of course the real problem is Disney has an ever growing population of new people that have never been and will not know they are being ripped off royally until their first trip which will potentially be their last... So it temper the ability of visitors to signal their disgust with anything Disney does.

The answer is I go MORE than I used to AND I now usually do ONLY Disney.

Growing up I went nearly every November and we drove and stayed off property and went to Disney, Seaworld, Universal, Busch Gardens, Cypress Gardens, Weeki Wachee Springs, Homosassa Springs, Silver Springs....

Now I go to WDW 1-2 times per year.
Was supposed to go twice last year but couldn't.
Just went in late August and I'm going again mid November.
Hoping to go at least once next year (my sister is in the beginning stages of hopefully building a house next year so her going on a trip is a bit iffy but darn it I'll find someone else to go with lol)

 

[thomas998]

The answer is I go MORE than I used to AND I now usually do ONLY Disney.

Growing up I went nearly every November and we drove and stayed off property and went to Disney, Seaworld, Universal, Busch Gardens, Cypress Gardens, Weeki Wachee Springs, Homosassa Springs, Silver Springs....

Now I go to WDW 1-2 times per year.
Was supposed to go twice last year but couldn't.
Just went in late August and I'm going again mid November.
Hoping to go at least once next year (my sister is in the beginning stages of hopefully building a house next year so her going on a trip is a bit iffy but darn it I'll find someone else to go with lol)

I have no doubt their will be a range of people with some going more and some going less. Our time with the mouse has probable gone from 30 days a year to 3 or 4 a year... Only exception is if we do DL where we spend more time as that park doesn't seem to have seen the same decline as WDW.

 

[123mart123]

That's the real question. Is Disney creating the same nostalgia for the new generation? If not, they could have some real problems down the road. It's a problem that won't show its face for maybe 15yrs or so. Disney is gambling on the idea that nothing they do can break the Disney nostalgia addiction. So far, that has been a good bet.

That’s really what I was trying to get at with my question.

There a few other dynamics to consider.
1. There is competition in Orlando that 15 - 20 years ago wasn’t a near peer type competition like universal may be becoming.
2. The steep cost of an on-site Disney vacation (travel, food, resort, admission, souvenir).
3. Complexity - this is not a “show up, relax and explore” place. If you don’t know you have to plan like an OCD planner you likely miss out on the headline features.
4. Marketing the massive new rides (with low capacity) that are hard to get on….what kind of ride home is that for the every 3-5 year visitor?

 

[123mart123]

a Customer life cycle model looks like:

1. reach (marketing)
2. acquire (new customer)
3. Develop (up sells)
4. retain (incentivize - repeat customer)
5. Inspire (customer evangelized your product and brings new customers)

Disney is in an interesting place. It said it essentially has too many customers visiting its parks and the customers are not spending enough. So Disney is actively looking to move up in price and shrink it’s customer base.
2. “un acquire“
3. Uber develop (get more revenue per customer)

not clear how they are doing with 1 - reaching newer wealthier customers. Or if they think they need to?