Were the lines really shorter back in the day or do we imagine this?

[EricsBiscuit]

True that each attraction has an hourly capacity, and assuming that each ride is fully staffed for maximum load and unload efficiency, then the total wait time for all riders shouldn't be any longer than the pre-FP days.

The trick is to find a FP-to-stand-by ratio that doesn't needlessly penalize those who didn't or couldn't score a FP+.

thats a good point. Also making FP more accessible to people who don't book FPs weeks or months in advance would be good.

 

[Maeryk]

To use my numbers again... For a 2000 pph ride, Disney thought if they gave 1400 people a FP, that would mean there would only be 600 people in standby. In reality, 400 "new" people got FP, and so only 1000 people in standby got FP. Leaving 1000 people in standby still to be dealt with. But now there are only 600 seats for them because of the 1400 walkups.

Which goes back to my point 1.. simply more people in the park, so longer lines either way.

I do see what you are saying, and not knowing the actual metrics Disney uses to meter out fast passes, it's all just guesswork how they handle it. I do know, from someone who worked on some of the systems that the magic bands use, that realtime tracking of people via the LRRFID chips, was supposed to be incorporated to maximize the tradeoff between FP and standby, and give the most satisfaction possible to both sets of guests. Whether they have ever implemented it, or it works right, I have no idea.

But I still think what many people are seeing as "longer lines" and blaming it on FP is just because they aren't factoring in the much higher overall attendance at the parks over time.

 

[Maeryk]

thats a good point. Also making FP more accessible to people who don't book FPs weeks or months in advance would be good.

I don't know how exactly they would do that. It would be an IT logistics nighmare to somehow tie FP pools to specific reservations, etc, and the FP+ early access is still a perk for resort guests, to a certain extent. (And should remain as such, IMO. I'm not even going to pretend that someone spending 10K to be there shouldn't get a bump here and there over someone who lives locally and can just jet over to the park whenever they want, EMH being another).

 

[Lensman]

I am. Not only are they jumping in front of stand-by riders, but they declared their intent to do so 30 or 60 days prior to them even entering the gate.

But I don't think you're creating a moral equivalency between actually cutting in line vs taking advantage of the Fastpass benefit, are you?

Getting good FPs is nowhere near as difficult as you're making out. If you're persistent and keep checking, you will eventually hit the jackpot and secure something you really want. Last year, I booked a last-minute trip for spring break. My initial daily selections (made about two weeks before the trip) weren't great, because most of the really desirable spots had already been taken, but I was able to replace and improve my choices by periodically checking for new availability. I even managed to get a same-day FP for Frozen Ever After after going through my three prebooked selections. Perhaps people don't realise that the offerings change from second to second; it really does pay to check frequently. As I said in an earlier post, I do feel sorry for those who aren't tech-savvy, because they are indeed disadvantaged by the new system. But for anyone with the means and willingness to use it effectively, FP is a real boon.

This is a good point. In some ways, the people who booked their Fastpass 60 days in advance could be said to have started sitting in the virtual line a full 60 days. Well, at least a half hour over the course of 2 months booking what Fastpasses were available at the 60 day mark, then checking in daily to see if you can improve them over the next 60 days. It's an effort that should be taken into account when weighing the morality of using Fastpass. BTW, even I find the idea of torturing myself over the morality of using Fastpass is a bit much. It's not like the morality of the transplant list, right? Next thing you know we'll be discussing frequent flyer boarding for airlines.

I think the truly affluent don't actually even bother with the fastpass they just get the VIP tour guides which is your automatic front of the line pass with no need to plan anything, just a willingness to hand over several hundred dollars per hour.... And if I ever win the lottery, that's what I'll be doing.... until then I'm stuck with the rest of the world standing a line or scrambling for a fastpass.

Ah, but if you win the lottery you'll have the luxury of time since you won't have to work so you won't mind waiting in a few standby lines. And for your Fastpasses you can have your personal assistant do the booking for you.

thats a good point. Also making FP more accessible to people who don't book FPs weeks or months in advance would be good.

I've often wondered about this - that is, if Disney should release more Fastpass inventory over time to ensure that people who book onsite rooms late (within the 60 day window) can still obtain decent Fastpasses.

 

[LittleBuford]

This is a good point. In some ways, the people who booked their Fastpass 60 days in advance could be said to have started sitting in the virtual line a full 60 days. Well, at least a half hour over the course of 2 months booking what Fastpasses were available at the 60 day mark, then checking in daily to see if you can improve them over the next 60 days. It's an effort that should be taken into account when weighing the morality of using Fastpass. BTW, even I find the idea of torturing myself over the morality of using Fastpass is a bit much. It's not like the morality of the transplant list, right? Next thing you know we'll be discussing frequent flyer boarding for airlines.

I should add that I don't stay onsite, so I'm always going to have to catch up with those that do. But catching up is possible, and I admit to getting a rush each time I manage to replace one of my FP selections with a better one.

I like @Maeryk's assessment: yes, you may have to wait longer for certain attractions because of FP, but your wait for others will be much shorter. If you find that your overall time spent queuing is unduly long, I daresay you're not using FP as effectively as you might. (I hasten to add that I'm using the generic "you"!)

 

[Maeryk]

I've often wondered about this - that is, if Disney should release more Fastpass inventory over time to ensure that people who book onsite rooms late (within the 60 day window) can still obtain decent Fastpasses.

I think they already do that. Say there's a pool of 1000 FP for x ride x day.. 600 of those get allotted to the 60 day chunk, and another 400 drop at the 30 day mark. And then you have the day-of trickle that happen every day to try and urge people the direction they want them to go. I've watched Soarin go from no more available to having them available at certain times.

Like it or not there are only two ways to do Disney now.. treat it like a local park and swing by whenever, or start planning a year out.

If you are planning you need to know what park, when and where you are eating, and what EMHs will be half a year in advance. So it is almost necessary that they give some way of being sure you can get on at least a few rides, when you want, and in concert with the other reservations.

 

[thomas998]

but the total number of people doing the attraction would stay the same. The wait will always be whatever most people think that attraction is worth waiting. The only difference I see is the amount of people in the standby line and how fast it moves.

If you want to get down to the real details of it, having two lines a fastpass and a standby line may have a slight impact on the total hourly ride numbers. While two lines don't impact the number if the ride is moving perfectly, you have to factor in having the added confusion that sometimes happens when they are bringing these two lines back together. It is possible that it slow down the traffic slow of people getting on a bit and any slow down would lower the total riders per hour. Now that is also going to be dependent on where the two lines converge the further from the point of entry to the ride the less impact but on rides where the two lines converge at the ride entry point it could slow things down a bit.

 

[thomas998]

Ah, but if you win the lottery you'll have the luxury of time since you won't have to work so you won't mind waiting in a few standby lines. And for your Fastpasses you can have your personal assistant do the booking for you.

Except I don't want to be one of the many lottery winners that goes broke in 5 years so I'll skip wasting money on a personal assistant and just go for the expense of the tour guide... Of course if I win the Megamillions tonight maybe I'll just rent the whole park for one day and ride things till I'm so tired of them that I never need to ride them again.

 

[hopemax]

But I don't think you're creating a moral equivalency between actually cutting in line vs taking advantage of the Fastpass benefit, are you?

But here's the thing. If you believe my theory, that some people with FP are people who pre-FP were sitting on a bench grumbling about not being able to ride because they weren't going to wait 45-60 min. Or people who rode once, and now can ride once with FP and once without. IE people who never were in the standby line = to the amount of rides they are now experiencing. And ride capacity doesn't change. Then those seats came at the direct expense of another rider. There might be a small amount of unused capacity at the beginning and the end of the day, and small efficiencies in loading. And I suppose, rides could close later after closing. So a ride that would be clear of guests at 10:15 might take until 10:35 to clear. That still likely leaves seats that can only become available because another rider is no longer riding.

I'm guessing these riders fall into 3 groups. A. People who were willing to wait 45 minutes, but now the wait time is 60 minutes (the working theory of the thread) and they are unwilling to wait. B. Guests who had time to wait 45 minutes but have to be in a certain place at a certain time and they don't feel comfortable with a longer wait (think guests going to ADRs, parade or show times, etc.) C. Guests who are now forgoing re-rides. "I will wait 45 minutes twice, but not 60 minutes twice." (or more likely, I was willing to ride early when the wait time was 20-30, but now I can't get my 2 rides in before the wait time jumps to 45-60 min)

So what are the moral questions regarding "fairness" there? Should a rider unwilling to wait 45 minutes get advantage over someone who is willing to wait 45 min but not 60? Which type of rider should be able to get two rides with more ease?

 

[Maeryk]

But here's the thing. If you believe my theory, that some people with FP are people who pre-FP were sitting on a bench grumbling about not being able to ride because they weren't going to wait 45-60 min. Or people who rode once, and now can ride once with FP and once without. IE people who never were in the standby line = to the amount of rides they are now experiencing. And ride capacity doesn't change. Then those seats came at the direct expense of another rider. There might be a small amount of unused capacity at the beginning and the end of the day, and small efficiencies in loading. And I suppose, rides could close later after closing. So a ride that would be clear of guests at 10:15 might take until 10:35 to clear. That still likely leaves seats that can only become available because another rider is no longer riding.

I'm guessing these riders fall into 3 groups. A. People who were willing to wait 45 minutes, but now the wait time is 60 minutes (the working theory of the thread) and they are unwilling to wait. B. Guests who had time to wait 45 minutes but have to be in a certain place at a certain time and they don't feel comfortable with a longer wait (think guests going to ADRs, parade or show times, etc.) C. Guests who are now forgoing re-rides. "I will wait 45 minutes twice, but not 60 minutes twice." (or more likely, I was willing to ride early when the wait time was 20-30, but now I can't get my 2 rides in before the wait time jumps to 45-60 min)

So what are the moral questions regarding "fairness" there? Should a rider unwilling to wait 45 minutes get advantage over someone who is willing to wait 45 min but not 60? Which type of rider should be able to get two rides with more ease?

"fair" needs to go out the window. Really. Disney offers programs and incentives to maximize it's user experience and it's own efficiency and income. If people want to fail to take advantage of them out of some sense of morality, that is their problem, but it's not "unfair" for people TO take advantage of them when offered.

That's like someone who only wears old school smooth soled football shoes whining that everyone else wearing these new fangled cleats has an unfair advantage. Get with the times, it is what it is, and this is a program that is now almost 20 years old. This isn't new or shocking or surprising.

 

[thomas998]

"fair" needs to go out the window. Really. Disney offers programs and incentives to maximize it's user experience and it's own efficiency and income. If people want to fail to take advantage of them out of some sense of morality, that is their problem, but it's not "unfair" for people TO take advantage of them when offered.

That's like someone who only wears old school smooth soled football shoes whining that everyone else wearing these new fangled cleats has an unfair advantage. Get with the times, it is what it is, and this is a program that is now almost 20 years old. This isn't new or shocking or surprising.

I kind of wish they would go back to the old tickets system.... Maybe charge 20 dollars for an e-ticket... see just how long the lines would be for things like the mine train if it was 5 times as expensive as the teacups.

 

[Maeryk]

I kind of wish they would go back to the old tickets system.... Maybe charge 20 dollars for an e-ticket... see just how long the lines would be for things like the mine train if it was 5 times as expensive as the teacups.

That only works at Knoebels. And their coaster band is like, 20$ and people complain... Even with a one of a kind unique ride.

 

[disney4life2008]

I remember prior to FP+, spaceship earth was walk on the overwhelming majority of the time. I actually recall the worst lines being at universal studies back in the day but thats because they never had fans in the que.

 

[Maeryk]

I remember prior to FP+, spaceship earth was walk on the overwhelming majority of the time. I actually recall the worst lines being at universal studies back in the day but thats because they never had fans in the que.

It still is, aside from park open and close. (If one of the other big ones go down, lines obviously increase at SSE, though)

 

[Shouldigo12]

I really think a discussion on the morality of using a fastpass is a bit over the top. There's no morality to it. No one needs to feel guilty about it, nor should anyone be trying to make others feel bad about using it.

 

[EricsBiscuit]

I don't know how exactly they would do that. It would be an IT logistics nighmare to somehow tie FP pools to specific reservations, etc, and the FP+ early access is still a perk for resort guests, to a certain extent. (And should remain as such, IMO. I'm not even going to pretend that someone spending 10K to be there shouldn't get a bump here and there over someone who lives locally and can just jet over to the park whenever they want, EMH being another).

realeasing FPs over time. Or how DL does it currently

If you want to get down to the real details of it, having two lines a fastpass and a standby line may have a slight impact on the total hourly ride numbers. While two lines don't impact the number if the ride is moving perfectly, you have to factor in having the added confusion that sometimes happens when they are bringing these two lines back together. It is possible that it slow down the traffic slow of people getting on a bit and any slow down would lower the total riders per hour. Now that is also going to be dependent on where the two lines converge the further from the point of entry to the ride the less impact but on rides where the two lines converge at the ride entry point it could slow things down a bit.

Do we have sufficient data on the impact of FP on hourly capacity that accounts for things like staffing and other factors?

 

[Goofyernmost]

I think that the capacity argument isn't even worthy of discussion. Capacity overall makes a difference but, how FP affects that is different. You, as a persons, a single human being may be part of the 2K per hour capacity, but, that doesn't mean that you will be within that 2K by the time it is all said and done. If that were true you would always be on the ride before your hour is up. One would never be more then an hour, ever. If you only had one line, and the capacity was (you pick a number per hour) then even if you are the 2000th person in the single line you would be happily on the ride in an hour no matter how big the outside crowd happened to be. However, Using that same number there would be 2K people in the standby and probably 1000 in Fastpass. During your stay or the hour that 2000 people and enter you have already started the wait 3000th in line or 1.5 hours. While you are waiting another wave of FP will have entered the FP line because that one is moving and you are not. So every minute that goes by puts you further and further behind in the capacity number. You are paying for their virtual time in the FP queue just by the fact that you are standing still and they are moving ahead.

Your place in the REAL line is not connected to capacity, it is directly connected the numbers in the VIRTUAL line. Your length of time in the REAL line is constantly getting higher with ever single individual that enters the FP line. You don't travel with a huge amount of people you are individual, not a group or even part of a large capacity sized group. You entered a line which seemed reasonable at the time, but, the longer you were in it the longer your wait will become. I once entered the standby line early in the morning and the sign stated a 20 minute wait so I decided to join the Standby. When I reached the end of the Standby line it seemed about right for the time advertised. Then FP people started to show up and my wait jumped from 20 minutes to 1.5 hours. If anyone thinks that is a good system, then you probably were one of the people lucky enough to be able to get a FP. If not your were screwed. You put the time in and they got the reward.

Compare it to work. Let's say that you have a co-worker that is always late, he or she might have a good excuse for it, but, the reality is they are still working less then you do. You are both on salary and make the same amount of money per paycheck. However, you worked 40 hours+ and they were lucky to have hit 35 hours. Would you consider it fair? Would you feel like you were actually doing the work that the late person was getting paid for? This is the same thing. You paid for admission. They paid the same thing for admission and yet, they are moving forward and you are standing still. I'm sorry, but, the system is caste motivated and you are paying for their extra's with your time.

The solution short of just drastically just saying this system is awful and shutting it down is to just give everyone a FP. And set them free to do it whenever they wanted to do it. Then of course we would be back to a single line and the same thing that the original line used to do, except everyone would get a "rush" because they have a FP.

 

[Goofyernmost]

"fair" needs to go out the window. Really. Disney offers programs and incentives to maximize it's user experience and it's own efficiency and income. If people want to fail to take advantage of them out of some sense of morality, that is their problem, but it's not "unfair" for people TO take advantage of them when offered.

That's like someone who only wears old school smooth soled football shoes whining that everyone else wearing these new fangled cleats has an unfair advantage. Get with the times, it is what it is, and this is a program that is now almost 20 years old. This isn't new or shocking or surprising.

No one, unless they were unaware of FP and that is more common then you think, has ever stood in a Standby line out of a sense of morality. The do it out of a sense of if they don't get in that line they will never get to see the attraction. This a theme park for gods sake. It is nothing like jumping in the line of fire to save a life. It is a damn theme park and at the end of the day EVERYONE should leave feeling that they were as important as the next person and were treated fairly. Let's say we all went online to reserve FP's at the same time. Impossible because the systems would crash. But, just for giggles lets say we could. Would we all get a FP? No! Why? Because being accessible for all is not the same thing as being available to all. To put it in simple terms, if 100 people all wanted a FP and Disney was only issuing 50 FP's for that attraction. 50 people would not have FP's available for them. Everyone has access, only 50 were available. Mentally attempting to change that reality is just a playing of words to justify going against social rules of behavior.

 

[polynesiangirl]

The longest line I've ever seen, or stood in, was for Splash in the 90s. I think it was spring break, and it was something like 2 hours. That was painful.

I feel like my wait times are less overall, or maybe about the same? We've been so many times though that unlike when I was a kid, if something has a really long line we usually just skip it.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not FP+ is good or bad, but I will say that I do not miss the mad dash to get a paper FP for certain rides.

 

[Maeryk]

The longest line I've ever seen, or stood in, was for Splash in the 90s. I think it was spring break, and it was something like 2 hours. That was painful.

I feel like my wait times are less overall, or maybe about the same? We've been so many times though that unlike when I was a kid, if something has a really long line we usually just skip it.

I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not FP+ is good or bad, but I will say that I do not miss the mad dash to get a paper FP for certain rides.

Think of the savings.. they don't have to pay CMs to staff the routes to all the rides at the back of the parks at rope drop, to tell the fastest member of your family with a fist full of park tickets to stop running.