Were the lines really shorter back in the day or do we imagine this?

[Lensman]

To the best of my memory, MK's parking lots are not any bigger now then they were in the early 80's. And they were always full. I don't remember the dateline on it, but, the race track was put in there later. It was recently removed and returned to being part of the parking lot. Remember in the early days there were hardly any rooms onsite. Almost everyone had to stay in hotels surrounding WDW. Everyone had cars and had to park them. I can remember looking at the mass of automobiles and making the comment that I'd just like to have one days receipts for the parking lot alone. And at that time it was only about $1.00 to park.

Since we were talking about the parking lot, growth/non-growth, I thought as a reward to all of us diligently working through this issue, I'd post some pretty pictures I found of the parking lot from biorecontruct on twitter.



I appreciate all the great discussion and insights from everyone on this board, especially the diversity of opinion. And I love how everyone does this out of love for the idea of the parks, past or present. Who else do I know who would be excited about pictures of a parking lot?

 

[MaximumEd]

Wonder why the TTC has that island of trees in the middle? Unsuitable land?

 

[Goofyernmost]

Wonder why the TTC has that island of trees in the middle? Unsuitable land?

That's were they bury all the people that show up wearing a Universal T-shirt.

 

[larryz]

Wonder why the TTC has that island of trees in the middle? Unsuitable land?

I'd guess a drainage cachement.

 

[DuckTalesWooHoo1987]

The problem is that there just really aren't any true "offseasons" like their used to be. Our DVC use year is April and we always take the first trip of every points cycle in May and I've got videos from 10 years ago in May where there were midday 5 minute waits in the MK. It was also routinely that way in September and October as well. However, now you can't even hardly get on the Carrousel in that amount of time in midday at the MK. We just got back yesterday from 8 days and last week the MK was hammered on days where there weren't Halloween parties but on the days when there WERE Halloween parties the other parks were hammered. This past Wednesday was insane at the MK. Christmas level crowds. That's just what's gonna continue to happen though with shorter hours and more events planned and then when things aren't planned there people will rush there and spend the day to get a full day. I remember 4 or 5 years ago we went to get on Spaceship Earth and it was lined up all the way out of the ride and through all the rails and were were like "WHAT THE CRAP?!" and the CM there said "I have no idea because I've never seen it like this!" and now it's routinely backed up as well. We're Disney diehards for sure but I can honestly see why first time visitors might not have the same feeling about it because they don't really know how things were in the "good old days". We used to spend all day in the parks and now we just get up and go early and then go rest when the crowds start to really fill in and then go back in the evening and do more and that's not really a big deal when you have AP's and spend over 3 weeks a year there but when you're there on a one day pass and spend 4 and a half hours for Flight of Passage (as it actually was one day last week) I could see that not feeling like your "money's worth" for sure. I see no end in sight too. Does anyone else?

 

[marni1971]

Just the sheer size increase of the parking lot for MK over the years

MK parking lot had not increased in size until the modest addition last year (or the year before) when the access road was pushed into the old Speedway berm.

They created FP so that people would have a shot at riding what they wanted a few times a day without standing in long lines at every ride...

They created FP to get guests through rides faster and to give them more time to shop and eat.

 

[macefamily]

We always used to head down the second week of December before the holiday rush. We have old videos of us going through ride queues at Disney and Universal during the week. You could walk right up to some of them and most of the rest were 15-20 minute waits. This was late 90's early 2000's. It has definitely changed.

 

[Goofyernmost]

We always used to head down the second week of December before the holiday rush. We have old videos of us going through ride queues at Disney and Universal during the week. You could walk right up to some of them and most of the rest were 15-20 minute waits. This was late 90's early 2000's. It has definitely changed.

Fastpass was introduced in 1999. Coincidence? I think not!

 

[LittleBuford]

Fastpass was introduced in 1999. Coincidence? I think not!

But the post stated, “This was late 90's early 2000's”—both before and after the introduction of FP.

 

[larryz]

The problem is that there just really aren't any true "offseasons" like their used to be. Our DVC use year is April and we always take the first trip of every points cycle in May and I've got videos from 10 years ago in May where there were midday 5 minute waits in the MK. It was also routinely that way in September and October as well. However, now you can't even hardly get on the Carrousel in that amount of time in midday at the MK. We just got back yesterday from 8 days and last week the MK was hammered on days where there weren't Halloween parties but on the days when there WERE Halloween parties the other parks were hammered. This past Wednesday was insane at the MK. Christmas level crowds. That's just what's gonna continue to happen though with shorter hours and more events planned and then when things aren't planned there people will rush there and spend the day to get a full day. I remember 4 or 5 years ago we went to get on Spaceship Earth and it was lined up all the way out of the ride and through all the rails and were were like "WHAT THE CRAP?!" and the CM there said "I have no idea because I've never seen it like this!" and now it's routinely backed up as well. We're Disney diehards for sure but I can honestly see why first time visitors might not have the same feeling about it because they don't really know how things were in the "good old days". We used to spend all day in the parks and now we just get up and go early and then go rest when the crowds start to really fill in and then go back in the evening and do more and that's not really a big deal when you have AP's and spend over 3 weeks a year there but when you're there on a one day pass and spend 4 and a half hours for Flight of Passage (as it actually was one day last week) I could see that not feeling like your "money's worth" for sure. I see no end in sight too. Does anyone else?

I think we've got the strategy backwards... they're not going to price people out... they're going to make the lines so long that nobody wants to come any more.

Then they can sell the parks off and let someone else manage the headaches.

 

[tl77]

Not sure how far back you're talking about, but Disney World is definitely more popular now that it's ever been. Back in the 70's and 80's there were a lot fewer people and a lot fewer attractions in the parks, but "Disney" as a brand was less popular back then too. I remember people asking why we liked going to Disney World so often, back in the day it was also considered an "expensive vacation" most people would just go to the local beach for a summer vacation. My dad work for one of the Epcot sponsor companies, so we got a discount on tickets and things, but it was really only Disney fans traveling to Disney World in the early days, the same way only Elvis fan go to see Graceland, at least that was the perception of in by a lot of people, Disney World was kind of a "cult thing" not really a "mainstream thing".

In the late 80's early 90's with the huge hit movies like Roger Rabbit, Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast ect... and the additions of Star Wars and Indiana Jones at Disney World along with Universal Orlando and Sea World, traveling to Florida for a family vacation quickly became a "mainstream thing", that's when the ads of the winning NFL quarterbacks being asked "now that you've won The Super Bowl, what are you going to do next? ...I'm going to Walt Disney World" started to happen. Today going to Disney World is like "something people do before they die", it's like seeing Time Square, more of an American landmark, it's been really surprising to see that changeover the past 25-30 years.

I don't think Disney kept up with it well, instead of focusing on the parks they tried to diversify in the 90's with Disney Institute, Celebration, Pleasure Island, Disney Quest, Disney Stores, ...except for the DVC and Cruise Lines most that stuff failed, but more and more people kept going to the parks. It got to a point where they need Fast Pass, I remember the summer Splash Mt opened there was a 100 minute wait for The Haunted Mansion, but Fast Pass is really just a band-aid though. The expansion of the parks that they are doing now they should have done 20 years ago, I remember when Star Tours opened, when people got off it they looked around like "is that it? there should really be more of this type thing" they're just now starting to keep up with the demand I think.

 

[NickMaio]

As an alternative system, I would eliminate the current FP+ system entirely and do the following:

1 - Determine the acceptable wait time for a ride. The orthodoxy here is about 30 minutes, so let’s use that.

2 - As soon as the wait time for a ride exceeds 30 minutes, the standby line should be closed and you would have to scan your ticket for entry.

3 - Upon scanning your ticket, you would gain immediate entry to the 30-minute line. You would also be given a time, based on the number of other people who had scanned into that ride and the projected equivalent wait time based on the ride’s operational capacity, as to when you could scan in to your next 30-minute line attraction.

4 - In the meantime, you could enter any attraction with a queue line below 30 minutes.

The sheer numbers of people in the parks might make this impossible ------

 

[FettFan]

There was less people in the parks back then than now on most days.

 

[Roakor]

But the post stated, “This was late 90's early 2000's”—both before and after the introduction of FP.

when fasspass was first introduced it was paper passes like disneyland has, not the 60 days in advance they have now. Also it was more limited. they didn't give out as many fasspasses. It was also only for the most popular rides. But if you want proof fasspass is why standby is much longer now just go to either the Halloween or Christmas party. I have been to both on nights where they were sold out. lines for rides like peter pan would start pretty much at the entrance and you would still make it through the entire queue in 20 min. all because there was no fasspass. this person explains it very well too

 

[LittleBuford]

when fasspass was first introduced it was paper passes like disneyland has, not the 60 days in advance they have now. Also it was more limited. they didn't give out as many fasspasses. It was also only for the most popular rides. But if you want proof fasspass is why standby is much longer now just go to either the Halloween or Christmas party. I have been to both on nights where they were sold out. lines for rides like peter pan would start pretty much at the entrance and you would still make it through the entire queue in 20 min. all because there was no fasspass. this person explains it very well too

Several people in this thread have commented on the growing queues for the People Mover, which surely have nothing to do with FP.

To be clear, I'm not disputing that attractions with FP now have longer standby lines--that's just an inevitable outcome of the system. What I don't agree with is the claim that the introduction of FP means that one now has to wait longer overall (adding all wait times together).

 

[Goofyernmost]

Several people in this thread have commented on the growing queues for the People Mover, which surely have nothing to do with FP.

To be clear, I'm not disputing that attractions with FP now have longer standby lines--that's just an inevitable outcome of the system. What I don't agree with is the claim that the introduction of FP means that one now has to wait longer overall (adding all wait times together).

If one never goes into a standby line then it won't average out. However, that means you will only be going in rides with a FP and that is going to wildly decrease the number of rides you will be able to go to at all. What would you do between FP's, just sit and wait for the time for that one? The same bit of physics that slows down the standby line because of FP will also apply to you if you are in a standby line because you can't get a FP for it. When you add it all together what you gained by having a ride with Fastpass may easily be wiped out by your time in a standby line. Nothing more then less then two lines will eat up all the time saved by the magic FP that was supposed to save you tons of time. It doesn't. It saves on whatever ride you hold a FP on, but, takes it away on the others.

As far as People Mover, that problem is greatly exaggerated. If it isn't broken down the line moves continuously, there is no stoppage. The distance from the beginning of the queue to the ride itself is very short. If there is a slight delay the time in line is hardly worth thinking about. Again that is if there isn't a break down. That thing eats people like a hungry Lion. There is no way that it is a line that is a problem.

There was time where on the busiest day you could start on one side of the park and make you way all the way around, stopping at every attraction and riding it. You didn't have to miss any. You just got in line and before long you were riding. Check it off and go to the next. The park was no bigger then and there was always a healthy crowd there. And there were few attractions. The queue's, like now, were always full. You saved a lot of time, got to see everything, eat when you were hungry, stop when you were tired and never lose a single beat.

 

[Roakor]

Several people in this thread have commented on the growing queues for the People Mover, which surely have nothing to do with FP.

To be clear, I'm not disputing that attractions with FP now have longer standby lines--that's just an inevitable outcome of the system. What I don't agree with is the claim that the introduction of FP means that one now has to wait longer overall (adding all wait times together).

I am not disputing that in general there are more people going to the parkand this is contributing to longer lines. but if you were to compare lines before and after fasspass on days that had similar attendance you will find the standby lines today are much much longer today. I would gladly give up my three fass passes to have a reduction in lines over all.

 

[LittleBuford]

If one never goes into a standby line then it won't average out. However, that means you will only be going in rides with a FP and that is going to wildly decrease the number of rides you will be able to go to at all. What would you do between FP's, just sit and wait for the time for that one? The same bit of physics that slows down the standby line because of FP will also apply to you if you are in a standby line because you can't get a FP for it. When you add it all together what you gained by having a ride with Fastpass may easily be wiped out by your time in a standby line. Nothing more then less then two lines will eat up all the time saved by the magic FP that was supposed to save you tons of time. It doesn't. It saves on whatever ride you hold a FP on, but, takes it away on the others.

As far as People Mover, that problem is greatly exaggerated. If it isn't broken down the line moves continuously, there is no stoppage. The distance from the beginning of the queue to the ride itself is very short. If there is a slight delay the time in line is hardly worth thinking about. Again that is if there isn't a break down. That thing eats people like a hungry Lion. There is no way that it is a line that is a problem. There was time where on the busiest day you could start on one side of the park and make you way all the way around, stopping at every attraction and riding it. You didn't have to miss any. You just got in line and before long you were riding. Check it off and go to the next. The park was no bigger then and there was always a healthy crowd there. And there were few attractions. The queue's, like now, were always full. You saved a lot of time, got to see everything, eat when you were hungry, stop when you were tired and never lose a single beat.

I am not disputing that in general there are more people going to the parkand this is contributing to longer lines. but if you were to compare lines before and after fasspass on days that had similar attendance you will find the standby lines today are much much longer today. I would gladly give up my three fass passes to have a reduction in lines over all.

Your concerns are based on your own experiences, and I'm not in a position to dispute those. It's clear that many people, yourselves included, dislike the system and feel it adds to their wait times. All I can say is that my personal experience has been very different: FP saves me a great deal of time, and I'm very glad it exists.

 

[Goofyernmost]

Your concerns are based on your own experiences, and I'm not in a position to dispute those. It's clear that many people, yourselves included, dislike the system and feel it adds to their wait times. All I can say is that my personal experience has been very different: FP saves me a great deal of time, and I'm very glad it exists.

The point has always been, that, of course, you will save time on any ride that you go on and have a FP for. However, when you have to get in a standby line, and if you want to see more attractions, you will have to be in a standby line for all the places where FP is unavailable. It is the accumulated time between the two, FP and Standby, that determines how much overall time you spend in a line waiting. I don't see how there can be any question about how if you are in a line, at any point in that line, and others are being forced in front of you, you will be adding time to that experience. It is simple math and physics. I'm glad for you that you feel that it hasn't affected you at all. All I can figure is that you have never stood in standby line, because if you had you would be able to tell how much longer you are in that line then you would have been if others (FP people) hadn't been placed in front of you.

 

[LittleBuford]

I'm glad for you that you feel that it hasn't affected you at all.

On the contrary, I feel it's affected me for the better.

All I can figure is that you have never stood in standby line, because if you had you would be able to tell how much longer you are in that line then you would have been if others (FP people) hadn't been placed in front of you.

Your assumption is incorrect. Of course I use standby lines, but only if the advertised wait time is acceptable to me (generally thirty minutes or less). As I said, I'm not going to question your experiences, and you really shouldn't question mine. I am not posting here to change anyone's mind, but to represent a different viewpoint from what appears to be the prevailing one in this forum. Some of us like FP and don't want to see a return to the days before it existed.