SyracuseDisneyFan
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Thanks for sharing 
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WED's Wonderful Kingdom
- Thread starter Animaniac93-98
- Start date
castlecake2.0
Well-Known Member
I don’t think they do, which is sad. Figment Christmas sweater shows that a very minor overlay with drive traffic and spread crowds. I often think about how the same can be done for Tom Sawyer Island with either holiday overlays and/or food. Put a super Instagram worthy snack at Aunt Pollys and get some more traffic over there and spread out crowds.
I usually skip Pinocchio's because of the crowds and menu, but I have been meaning to go inside to appreciate the interior. The windows that overlook Small World's load were a great choice too. There's also quality you can't measure when it comes to having places with a second floor you can visit. It makes the facades and imagined spaces feel more real.
Club Cooloholic
Well-Known Member
I feel like I remember a little bit of something last Thanksgiving in it. I want to say a little Garland or a little tree, but maybe I am just imagining it.
A much better photo of what I failed to take during my last trip, from 1982.
This wonderful vignette is still there. As you pass by you hear the rowdy "pirates" within the cave having a blast getting up to who knows what. Here's a live recording of the audio:
This scene is a great example of how WED could expand worlds and create a "story" with minimal staging and effects. No backstory needed.
This wonderful vignette is still there. As you pass by you hear the rowdy "pirates" within the cave having a blast getting up to who knows what. Here's a live recording of the audio:
This scene is a great example of how WED could expand worlds and create a "story" with minimal staging and effects. No backstory needed.
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River of America at MK feels like a natural river, despite being the opposite. The dense wilderness and separation from the rest of the park in the back half make it look like it was always there, and the park was built around it (like Bay Lake). It's implied that the wilderness extends far beyond what you actually see, even if it's not there.
Disneyland's River got all kinds of things added when they decided to build Star Wars behind it, but being able to walk around the whole perimeter and seeing how short it is makes it feel that much more fake and like a theme park ride. Even Tokyo Disneyland's River suffers from this, despite being just as large as MK's.
Being in the real American South does add to the authenticity, but there's something about the minimalism of MK's river that makes it feel real. Even the placement of the animals looks more authentic by having them hid in the bushes and not in more obviously staged scenes.
Disneyland's River got all kinds of things added when they decided to build Star Wars behind it, but being able to walk around the whole perimeter and seeing how short it is makes it feel that much more fake and like a theme park ride. Even Tokyo Disneyland's River suffers from this, despite being just as large as MK's.
Being in the real American South does add to the authenticity, but there's something about the minimalism of MK's river that makes it feel real. Even the placement of the animals looks more authentic by having them hid in the bushes and not in more obviously staged scenes.
Got a copy of the 50th anniversary coffee table book for Xmas. There's lots of great photographs and concept art documenting MK, some of which I hadn't seen before.
Worth getting for anyone interested in the park's, or WDW's history.
Worth getting for anyone interested in the park's, or WDW's history.
The Empress Lilly
Well-Known Member
Interesting thoughts.
In that vein, the MK Railroad is the only castle park railroad that isn't and doesn't pretend to be something else, outside of the train stations. It's really a railroad through central Florida, through WDW.
It's also the only attraction in the MK, together with the PeopleMover and erstwhile Skyway, that doesn't pretend to be somewhere or sometime else. The River is at times set right there, in Central Florida, but not contemporarily.
Contrary to the River though, which is a meticulously created environment, and as such a deliberate design choice, the RR feels as much the product of simply running out of money as of deliberate design.
In that sense the WDW RR is like the monorail or boats, another way of getting around WDW and not a Magic Kingdom "attraction", despite what ticket books said. With Fort Wilderness also having its own steam train it seems these vehicles were seen as forms of mass transit instead.
It's interesting to think about how much "buried treasure" is a recurring motif in The Magic Kingdom. Just off the top of my head, the following attractions contain hidden treasure, or minerals actively mined for:
Big Thunder Mountain
Tom Sawyer Island
Jungle Cruise
Snow White's Adventure
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Pirates of the Caribbean (the most obvious example)
Even Flight to the Moon/Mission to Mars had geological surveys (OK, that one's a stretch....)
And then there were places like The King's Gallery or the Golden Galleon which proudly displayed treasures of sorts.
Looking for buried treasure is a popular game among children, but being novices they just end up with nothing. Sticking a shovel in a random plot of dirt somewhere very rarely yields any significant results.
But of course, this is the magic kingdom, so you can't throw a rock without it landing on the spot of some hidden jewel. I don't think WED consciously knew this when planning the park, but it's part of its overall appeal of childhood pretend come to life.
Big Thunder Mountain
Tom Sawyer Island
Jungle Cruise
Snow White's Adventure
20,000 Leagues Under the Sea
Pirates of the Caribbean (the most obvious example)
Even Flight to the Moon/Mission to Mars had geological surveys (OK, that one's a stretch....)
And then there were places like The King's Gallery or the Golden Galleon which proudly displayed treasures of sorts.
Looking for buried treasure is a popular game among children, but being novices they just end up with nothing. Sticking a shovel in a random plot of dirt somewhere very rarely yields any significant results.
But of course, this is the magic kingdom, so you can't throw a rock without it landing on the spot of some hidden jewel. I don't think WED consciously knew this when planning the park, but it's part of its overall appeal of childhood pretend come to life.
To borrow a Parisian phrase, I'd say MK's "golden triangle" is the area outlined by Haunted Mansion, Peter Pan and Small World.
As originally designed, this area offered 5 rides (including the Skyway to Tomorrowland and Mike Fink Keelboats), a two level counter service restaurant, the "prince and princess" restrooms and some retail space (Yankee Trader and Keelboat Shop). A clear example of MK maximizing capacity in the way Disneyland is often praised for.
What's most astounding about this area is despite all these things being so close to each other, you don't think of Haunted Mansion or Columbia Harbor House being right there. The original arrangement of the buildings and tree lined berm behind the Skyway chalet did wonders to shape this area. At Tokyo Disneyland, these three rides are relatively the same distance apart, but out in the open for guests to see their spatial relation and it doesn't have the same impact. They also don't have the same design consistency. For all the flack the tented exterior of Small World at WDW gets, it does fit the rest of Fantasyland. The transition between Fantasyland and Liberty Square is also brilliantly staged and impactful despite being so abrupt and short in terms of distance.
And speaking of exteriors, the original buildings of Fantasyland West still hold up. Built many years before any of the "New" Fantasylands, these ornate, realistically proportioned Bavarian buildings speak to the potential of a different kind of Fantasyland that's rooted more in old world charm than cartoon aesthetics. To me, these outshine the ride entrances and define the overall feel of the land more than the tents. The river and waterfalls of the skyway queue and buckets gliding overhead gave the land kinetics that the current area lacks.
As originally designed, this area offered 5 rides (including the Skyway to Tomorrowland and Mike Fink Keelboats), a two level counter service restaurant, the "prince and princess" restrooms and some retail space (Yankee Trader and Keelboat Shop). A clear example of MK maximizing capacity in the way Disneyland is often praised for.
What's most astounding about this area is despite all these things being so close to each other, you don't think of Haunted Mansion or Columbia Harbor House being right there. The original arrangement of the buildings and tree lined berm behind the Skyway chalet did wonders to shape this area. At Tokyo Disneyland, these three rides are relatively the same distance apart, but out in the open for guests to see their spatial relation and it doesn't have the same impact. They also don't have the same design consistency. For all the flack the tented exterior of Small World at WDW gets, it does fit the rest of Fantasyland. The transition between Fantasyland and Liberty Square is also brilliantly staged and impactful despite being so abrupt and short in terms of distance.
And speaking of exteriors, the original buildings of Fantasyland West still hold up. Built many years before any of the "New" Fantasylands, these ornate, realistically proportioned Bavarian buildings speak to the potential of a different kind of Fantasyland that's rooted more in old world charm than cartoon aesthetics. To me, these outshine the ride entrances and define the overall feel of the land more than the tents. The river and waterfalls of the skyway queue and buckets gliding overhead gave the land kinetics that the current area lacks.
Photos of the Swan Boats circling the hub are much more common than those showing them entering Adventureland to go around the Swiss Family Treehouse. It certainly gave the ride a different feel to have that change in scenery:
I'm getting Discovery River Boat vibes looking at this one.
I'm getting Discovery River Boat vibes looking at this one.
"During the planning process [with Walt], I don't think we spent more than a day or so on what the theme park would be" - Joe Potter
"[When] we were given the go-ahead to do the theme park in Florida, we had to start from scratch." Richard F Irvine
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These quotes are taken from pages 42 and 43 of A Portrait of Walt Disney World
One of the things I dislike about Disney's marketing/mythos is the notion that Magic Kingdom was exactly what Walt was planning/thinking of when developing WDW. The perfect encapsulation of this is that motivational "vision" poster with him standing in front of Cinderella Castle, despite the first blue-sky drawing of the building not existing until after his death.
He knew there would be "an amusement park in Florida, similar to the one in California", but the specifics were never a priority.
All the wonderful things about MK as we came to know them are the result of WED. What makes the park so unique is that its the only Disney theme park designed without Walt, but with all of first generation's WED's top brass and designers as the major players. EPCOT Center would be the first with significant input from the next generation, and Tokyo Disneyland would recycle much of Gen 1's design work, but Phase 1 of Florida was them in their prime creating something new. Future Magic Kingdoms would also go big and try and top the original Disneyland, but MK has its own design philosophy that makes it unique, while still building upon previous concepts.
In the same page of the book there's a scan of a lined piece of paper that's one of the earliest examples of WED trying to determine what exactly MK will have. It's amazing that ideas like the Mickey Mouse Revue, a moat around the hub and Cinderella Castle were cemented so soon.
"[When] we were given the go-ahead to do the theme park in Florida, we had to start from scratch." Richard F Irvine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
These quotes are taken from pages 42 and 43 of A Portrait of Walt Disney World
One of the things I dislike about Disney's marketing/mythos is the notion that Magic Kingdom was exactly what Walt was planning/thinking of when developing WDW. The perfect encapsulation of this is that motivational "vision" poster with him standing in front of Cinderella Castle, despite the first blue-sky drawing of the building not existing until after his death.
He knew there would be "an amusement park in Florida, similar to the one in California", but the specifics were never a priority.
All the wonderful things about MK as we came to know them are the result of WED. What makes the park so unique is that its the only Disney theme park designed without Walt, but with all of first generation's WED's top brass and designers as the major players. EPCOT Center would be the first with significant input from the next generation, and Tokyo Disneyland would recycle much of Gen 1's design work, but Phase 1 of Florida was them in their prime creating something new. Future Magic Kingdoms would also go big and try and top the original Disneyland, but MK has its own design philosophy that makes it unique, while still building upon previous concepts.
In the same page of the book there's a scan of a lined piece of paper that's one of the earliest examples of WED trying to determine what exactly MK will have. It's amazing that ideas like the Mickey Mouse Revue, a moat around the hub and Cinderella Castle were cemented so soon.
Sharing this link her because it gives examples of one of MK's lead designers and her work with other associated links as well:
longforgottenhauntedmansion.blogspot.com
Our Dearest Dorothea
Dorothea Redmond, that is. We've talked about all the major players who brought the Mansion to (after)life. Anderson. Davis. Crump. Coats. G...
longforgottenhauntedmansion.blogspot.com
In recent years, I've come to appreciate more aspects of MK than I did before. In particular the Rivers of America and Pirates (or at least, what Pirates was pre-2006). I fear whatever happens with Beyond Big Thunder will diminish the Rivers and Island in ways most won't realize until after it happens.
If Pirates is seen as too short, I think it's the ending that's the issue, not the beginning. There may be no bayou and less caverns, but MK's caverns are so well staged, at setting the tone and building suspense leading up to the drop, I don't think it could be improved with more of a lead in. At Disneyland after the jail, there's the gap with the burning rafters, the arsenal scene and then the slow climb back up. At WDW, you get to the Treasure Room and then...that's it. Originally, the Treasure Room had elements of the arsenal and made for a more exciting finish and justification for getting off (before the Pirates get us), but now it's just Jack finding the treasure and that's that. I know there was a proposal for extending the ride by having guests go back to where load is now, but the cost to not only add another scene, but substantially change the interior layout, replace the belt that takes the boats back with a chain lift and then all the boats with something to hook that chain too and I can see why they didn't. I don't think it's necessary either. Just don't have the last scene be a large empty stage and set with one AA.
I also think the interior and exterior of The Sunshine pavilion is underappreciated for what a dramatic upgrade it was to the original Tiki Room. WED went from having an attraction awkwardly squished into the entrance of Adventureland (that to this day causes crowding issues) to an larger, elaborate, purpose built venue with higher capacity and a shaded waiting area. It tops the first show in every way, except the removal of the magic fountain takes it a notch down.
If Pirates is seen as too short, I think it's the ending that's the issue, not the beginning. There may be no bayou and less caverns, but MK's caverns are so well staged, at setting the tone and building suspense leading up to the drop, I don't think it could be improved with more of a lead in. At Disneyland after the jail, there's the gap with the burning rafters, the arsenal scene and then the slow climb back up. At WDW, you get to the Treasure Room and then...that's it. Originally, the Treasure Room had elements of the arsenal and made for a more exciting finish and justification for getting off (before the Pirates get us), but now it's just Jack finding the treasure and that's that. I know there was a proposal for extending the ride by having guests go back to where load is now, but the cost to not only add another scene, but substantially change the interior layout, replace the belt that takes the boats back with a chain lift and then all the boats with something to hook that chain too and I can see why they didn't. I don't think it's necessary either. Just don't have the last scene be a large empty stage and set with one AA.
I also think the interior and exterior of The Sunshine pavilion is underappreciated for what a dramatic upgrade it was to the original Tiki Room. WED went from having an attraction awkwardly squished into the entrance of Adventureland (that to this day causes crowding issues) to an larger, elaborate, purpose built venue with higher capacity and a shaded waiting area. It tops the first show in every way, except the removal of the magic fountain takes it a notch down.
Eric Graham
Well-Known Member
Maybe it would be wonderful if someone would put out the photos you described with the wonderful images of the design work of Disney with explanations of designs work and such. Maybe even the person that started this page...
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Just to clarify; unload would have been at the top of the ramp. Boats would still have arrived at load empty.
For some time, Magic Kingdom had existed in a vacuum, independent of whatever was going on with Disney as a company. With almost no attractions based on movies released after the year 2000, the park became an unintended tribute to the Disney of the 20th century. Specifically, Disneyland, the 1964 New York World's Fair and the filmography of Walt Disney himself. Even New Fantasyland is based partially on Snow White and Dumbo, hardly recent hits in 2009 when the project was announced.
This has always kind of been the case, though. When Disneyland opened, Mr Toad, Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan were all recent movies. By 1971, they were old too. The attraction menu selected in the 60s/70s was influenced by what was already proven hits at Disneyland and the Fair. With no new blockbusters coming from the studio, WED had to get creative with what to add to the park. When EPCOT development swallowed all their resources, adding to MK took a back seat...and continued that way well into Eisner's tenure.
But Magic Kingdom remained popular all this time. It's a testament to the quality of the park that kids in the 80s and 90s who were certainly not reading Jules Verne or awed by pan and scan VHS copies of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea got that ride, and all the rest. The core appeal and concept of the attractions was so clearly communicated that anyone could look at it and understand from the start.
Magic Kingdom's attraction line up developed its own nostalgic following, just like the older animated features. In time, parents and grandparents were able to share those experiences with their children. I remember riding a bus to MK a few years ago and hearing about how the Tiki Room "was grandpa's favorite", or a couple years ago while waiting for CoP a man in front of me was telling his family how he saw the show in its original New York run. The nostalgia of the park had melded with the nostalgia of the brand and movies. Magic Kingdom reminds many of the Disney we came to know and love and was a way of interacting and reliving those memories, like watching a favorite movie.
Now a management team so disinterested in the company's history and either out of touch with or put off by the park's audience, is dumbfounded to find out there's a Bear Jamboree and why anyone would like it. The same people who felt Epcot needed to be "more Disney" and now looking at the most unfiltered, popular and quintessential "Disney" theme park as, also, insufficiently "Disney" to their minds.
I'm not against adding to or upgrading the park, but there needs to be an understanding of why things are there to begin with and why they've worked for half a century. Perhaps looking at the world's most popular theme park with the attitude of fixing and optimizing it instead of building (thematically and physically) upon it is part of the problem.
This has always kind of been the case, though. When Disneyland opened, Mr Toad, Alice in Wonderland and Peter Pan were all recent movies. By 1971, they were old too. The attraction menu selected in the 60s/70s was influenced by what was already proven hits at Disneyland and the Fair. With no new blockbusters coming from the studio, WED had to get creative with what to add to the park. When EPCOT development swallowed all their resources, adding to MK took a back seat...and continued that way well into Eisner's tenure.
But Magic Kingdom remained popular all this time. It's a testament to the quality of the park that kids in the 80s and 90s who were certainly not reading Jules Verne or awed by pan and scan VHS copies of 20,000 Leagues Under the Sea got that ride, and all the rest. The core appeal and concept of the attractions was so clearly communicated that anyone could look at it and understand from the start.
Magic Kingdom's attraction line up developed its own nostalgic following, just like the older animated features. In time, parents and grandparents were able to share those experiences with their children. I remember riding a bus to MK a few years ago and hearing about how the Tiki Room "was grandpa's favorite", or a couple years ago while waiting for CoP a man in front of me was telling his family how he saw the show in its original New York run. The nostalgia of the park had melded with the nostalgia of the brand and movies. Magic Kingdom reminds many of the Disney we came to know and love and was a way of interacting and reliving those memories, like watching a favorite movie.
Now a management team so disinterested in the company's history and either out of touch with or put off by the park's audience, is dumbfounded to find out there's a Bear Jamboree and why anyone would like it. The same people who felt Epcot needed to be "more Disney" and now looking at the most unfiltered, popular and quintessential "Disney" theme park as, also, insufficiently "Disney" to their minds.
I'm not against adding to or upgrading the park, but there needs to be an understanding of why things are there to begin with and why they've worked for half a century. Perhaps looking at the world's most popular theme park with the attitude of fixing and optimizing it instead of building (thematically and physically) upon it is part of the problem.
I'm currently reading Foxx Nolte's latest book Scoundrels, Villains & Knaves, and as always it's wonderful to read her insight and perspective on the parks, especially as someone who used to work at WDW's Pirates.
Despite acknowledging its attributes, she ultimately comes down quite hard on WDW's Pirates and it's hard to disagree. It's a rare miss for WED as most other attractions adapted to MK were superior to their Disneyland counterparts at the time. Even Small World, IMO, despite losing the grandiose gardens and exterior.
It also sounds like deciding to build Pirates over Western River Expedition was more than just about cost, as more site prep had to be done to build Pirates where it was chosen (I had no idea conduit tube had been run to Frontierland in anticipation of WRE!). It was also the potential for more guest and retail space and maximizing the Pecos Bill kitchen for another dining facility. The 1971 version of WRE was comparable in size to what Pirates would ultimately be. Pirates was the safe choice to satisfy guest demand, but it's a prime example of how just building what your audience says they want doesn't necessarily lead to the best result.
Also, what a contrast to how operations approached the issue of insufficient dining capacity in 1971/72 vs today. Back then it was about creating as many facilities as realistically possible to reduce waits. Now it's use the app and figure it out yourself.
Despite acknowledging its attributes, she ultimately comes down quite hard on WDW's Pirates and it's hard to disagree. It's a rare miss for WED as most other attractions adapted to MK were superior to their Disneyland counterparts at the time. Even Small World, IMO, despite losing the grandiose gardens and exterior.
It also sounds like deciding to build Pirates over Western River Expedition was more than just about cost, as more site prep had to be done to build Pirates where it was chosen (I had no idea conduit tube had been run to Frontierland in anticipation of WRE!). It was also the potential for more guest and retail space and maximizing the Pecos Bill kitchen for another dining facility. The 1971 version of WRE was comparable in size to what Pirates would ultimately be. Pirates was the safe choice to satisfy guest demand, but it's a prime example of how just building what your audience says they want doesn't necessarily lead to the best result.
Also, what a contrast to how operations approached the issue of insufficient dining capacity in 1971/72 vs today. Back then it was about creating as many facilities as realistically possible to reduce waits. Now it's use the app and figure it out yourself.
After digesting more of what I read, there are things I disagree with and think MK's Pirates does quite well.
This in particular really sticks out:
"The dramatic credibility is what makes the scene funny; it isn't funny if they aren't actually in trouble. The lack of division between the Jail and Treasury scenes in Florida just made both groups of Pirates look foolish. If the jail pirates are really in such dire straits, why aren't the crew just ten feet away trying to help them?" - Nolte, p.196
For me it's not hard to understand why a bunch of drunk pirates, some of whom are asleep, reveling in their fortune would be distracted enough not to notice their comrades fate. IMO that adds to the tension of the scene. Enjoy it while it lasts boys.
WDW's Pirates is a series of escapes. We're lured into the fort by the intrigue of adventure and gold, but come closer to pirates than we previously thought. We know they're nearby looking for buried treasure, so we escape out the nearest tunnel. The deeper we get into the cave the clearer the impending danger becomes. First we see the fate of those who knew where that treasure was hidden. Then wind howls, thunder crashes, the rush of water is heard crashing ahead and we see the wreck of the last crew who tried to steer a course through it.* We survive the "rough waters" only to plop right into a battle of cannon fire. We then drift away through the town, only to see it set ablaze before us and have to look for yet another way out. This loses the dreamy mystery of Anaheim, but IMO it works on its own.
With some minor effects, I think the Treasury scene could be enhanced to sell the need for one last escape. Disneyland's version has the swaying, burning timber beams overhead. Why not add those above the Treasury and flume right before unload? Why not have some of the cabinets behind Jack crackling with falling embers? I'd also bring back more of the figures as the set that was designed for them looks empty now. "Drink up mates, there's treasure for all!" would not be out of place and there'd be dramatic irony of the pirates finally getting what they want, only to soon lose it.
*It's why I think the scene was better off without the talking skull. The sounds fx and scenery say everything we need to know without exposition. I also think the current talking skull looks like a Halloween display and doesn't match the aesthetic of the other skeletal remains. The mermaids didn't work as intended, but I honestly loved "Jolly Sailor Boy" as background music. It fit the spooky scene like a glove to me.
This in particular really sticks out:
"The dramatic credibility is what makes the scene funny; it isn't funny if they aren't actually in trouble. The lack of division between the Jail and Treasury scenes in Florida just made both groups of Pirates look foolish. If the jail pirates are really in such dire straits, why aren't the crew just ten feet away trying to help them?" - Nolte, p.196
For me it's not hard to understand why a bunch of drunk pirates, some of whom are asleep, reveling in their fortune would be distracted enough not to notice their comrades fate. IMO that adds to the tension of the scene. Enjoy it while it lasts boys.
WDW's Pirates is a series of escapes. We're lured into the fort by the intrigue of adventure and gold, but come closer to pirates than we previously thought. We know they're nearby looking for buried treasure, so we escape out the nearest tunnel. The deeper we get into the cave the clearer the impending danger becomes. First we see the fate of those who knew where that treasure was hidden. Then wind howls, thunder crashes, the rush of water is heard crashing ahead and we see the wreck of the last crew who tried to steer a course through it.* We survive the "rough waters" only to plop right into a battle of cannon fire. We then drift away through the town, only to see it set ablaze before us and have to look for yet another way out. This loses the dreamy mystery of Anaheim, but IMO it works on its own.
With some minor effects, I think the Treasury scene could be enhanced to sell the need for one last escape. Disneyland's version has the swaying, burning timber beams overhead. Why not add those above the Treasury and flume right before unload? Why not have some of the cabinets behind Jack crackling with falling embers? I'd also bring back more of the figures as the set that was designed for them looks empty now. "Drink up mates, there's treasure for all!" would not be out of place and there'd be dramatic irony of the pirates finally getting what they want, only to soon lose it.
*It's why I think the scene was better off without the talking skull. The sounds fx and scenery say everything we need to know without exposition. I also think the current talking skull looks like a Halloween display and doesn't match the aesthetic of the other skeletal remains. The mermaids didn't work as intended, but I honestly loved "Jolly Sailor Boy" as background music. It fit the spooky scene like a glove to me.