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News Tron coaster coming to the Magic Kingdom

Incomudro

Well-Known Member
I was being partially sarcastic (I don’t like shake yo tail feather at all).



Walt was dead when Disney World was built.

As I mentioned earlier both theme park fans and modern imagineers overthink this. People don’t actually want “immersive” they want to have fun. Now theming is important... but the overall theme is the park itself. Seeing a monorail at the Polynesian isn’t thematically correct, but it just works.

Which is the better land, Disneyland Fantasyland? Or Galaxies Edge? I’d vote for Fantasyland anyday! But which is more immersive? Certainly Galaxies Edge.
I saw a nice picture today on a Classic WDW Photos forum that I follow on Facebook.
It showed the Nautilus with the Skyway going over it, and Space Mountain in the background.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
This to me is one of the great misconceptions of the contemporary perspective on Themed Design - that placemaking is only as good as it is insular.

Disneyland and Magic Kingdom, two of the greatest themed design efforts in history, both frequently, intentionally, and successfully buck this rule. Anyone suggesting that the Train "breaks the immersion" of Tomorrowland is missing the point. At Disneyland the Train has been visibly passing through Tomorrowland since Opening Day and stopping in it since 1958, and at Walt Disney World there has (until now) always been a prominent stretch of track during which the train was consciously shown off rather than hidden. As Martin says, it was intentionally visible in front of Space Mountain. These were no accidents, they were intentional - as you said, the Train is meant to be a thread that strings the whole park together.

By this standard, Sleeping Beauty Castle is placed at the end of Main Street only because Walt Disney didn't have the resources to mask it off - but we know this isn't true, the Castle's placement at the end of Main Street was half the point of the park. Same with Cinderella Castle, which takes things a step further and is intentionally visible from every land in the park - the presence of the Castle is not an example of Thematic Intrusion, its juxtaposition is purposeful and serves a point higher than the "immersion" of any one land. Who ever looked and said "oh man, I really thought we were in a Space Port until those Medieval Spires ruined the illusion"? No one, and you're not really meant to. Ultimately, before the park is Tomorrowland or Main Street or Frontierland, it is The Magic Kingdom.

This is even more true at Disneyland, where the Monorail, Train, Matterhorn, Skyway, Castle, and more all do (or did) run through or past eachother to a spectacular effect that would never meet the standard of "immersion" where unrelated properties and periods are screened off from each other. The intermingling of these elements has always been one of the great strengths of Disneyland - a feature of its mission, not a liability against it. The purpose of the Berm was to keep the world from intruding on Disneyland, not to keep Disneyland from intruding on itself.

There are, of course, things that SHOULD be masked - unthemed showbuildings should of course be hidden, and things like Rapunzel's Tower are examples of actual thematic intrusion because the view of it from Liberty Square was simply not accounted for in its design - its visibility from there is purposeless. But conscious, considered design can successfully place elements from seemingly disparate stories together to create a new one - the story of the greater Park. This is what WED was doing, and what the current ethos of Imagineering frequently fails to recognize.

That attractions, lands, and even parks are now typically designed with a different methodology is fine and legitimate - there are a number of things built to this end in the last 20 years that achieve spectacular results in this style. But that is a relatively newer approach in the lifetime of the medium. To suggest that Disney themed design has always been in a race towards this end and merely fell far short back in the day is both to retcon what was actually happening and miss the great, great successes of that earlier approach. People have ALWAYS felt immersed in The Magic Kingdom and Disneyland, but that's not DESPITE the presence of a Castle at the end of a turn-of-the-century street or a steam engine in Tomorrowland, it is much more BECAUSE of it.

These are places where "anything can happen", as long as they stoke the imagination rather than ruin the magic. The Train does the former and not the latter.
Sigh... you had to use the Castle on Main Street?

Disneyland originally had its lands isolated, so it’s not really a new idea.
 

disneyC97

Well-Known Member
This to me is one of the great misconceptions of the contemporary perspective on Themed Design - that placemaking is only as good as it is insular.

Disneyland and Magic Kingdom, two of the greatest themed design efforts in history, both frequently, intentionally, and successfully buck this rule. Anyone suggesting that the Train "breaks the immersion" of Tomorrowland is missing the point. At Disneyland the Train has been visibly passing through Tomorrowland since Opening Day and stopping in it since 1958, and at Walt Disney World there has (until now) always been a prominent stretch of track during which the train was consciously shown off rather than hidden. As Martin says, it was intentionally visible in front of Space Mountain. These were no accidents, they were intentional - as you said, the Train is meant to be a thread that strings the whole park together.

By this standard, Sleeping Beauty Castle is placed at the end of Main Street only because Walt Disney didn't have the resources to mask it off - but we know this isn't true, the Castle's placement at the end of Main Street was half the point of the park. Same with Cinderella Castle, which takes things a step further and is intentionally visible from every land in the park - the presence of the Castle is not an example of Thematic Intrusion, its juxtaposition is purposeful and serves a point higher than the "immersion" of any one land. Who ever looked and said "oh man, I really thought we were in a Space Port until those Medieval Spires ruined the illusion"? No one, and you're not really meant to. Ultimately, before the park is Tomorrowland or Main Street or Frontierland, it is The Magic Kingdom.

This is even more true at Disneyland, where the Monorail, Train, Matterhorn, Skyway, Castle, and more all do (or did) run through or past eachother to a spectacular effect that would never meet the standard of "immersion" where unrelated properties and periods are screened off from each other. The intermingling of these elements has always been one of the great strengths of Disneyland - a feature of its mission, not a liability against it. The purpose of the Berm was to keep the world from intruding on Disneyland, not to keep Disneyland from intruding on itself.

There are, of course, things that SHOULD be masked - unthemed showbuildings should of course be hidden, and things like Rapunzel's Tower are examples of actual thematic intrusion because the view of it from Liberty Square was simply not accounted for in its design - its visibility from there is purposeless. But conscious, considered design can successfully place elements from seemingly disparate stories together to create a new one - the story of the greater Park. This is what WED was doing, and what the current ethos of Imagineering frequently fails to recognize.

That attractions, lands, and even parks are now typically designed with a different methodology is fine and legitimate - there are a number of things built to this end in the last 20 years that achieve spectacular results in this style. But that is a relatively newer approach in the lifetime of the medium. To suggest that Disney themed design has always been in a race towards this end and merely fell far short back in the day is both to retcon what was actually happening and miss the great, great successes of that earlier approach. People have ALWAYS felt immersed in The Magic Kingdom and Disneyland, but that's not DESPITE the presence of a Castle at the end of a turn-of-the-century street or a steam engine in Tomorrowland, it is much more BECAUSE of it.

These are places where "anything can happen", as long as they stoke the imagination rather than ruin the magic. The Train does the former and not the latter.
💯💯💯💯💯
 

yensidtlaw1969

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Sigh... you had to use the Castle on Main Street?

Disneyland originally had its lands isolated, so it’s not really a new idea.
I mean, I used more examples than just the Castle. And there are more examples than I noted.

Disneyland's lands WERE isolated at first, but it pretty quickly did away with that - by 1960 only Frontierland and Fantasyland lacked a bridge from one to the other. I recognize that was more for guest movement and not for thematic purposes, but they were willing to dispense with it because it wasn't especially important to the Disneyland concept. And even before that it was still true that you were at Disneyland first and, say, Tomorrowland second - the park made references to itself within the different lands in ways that you'll never see Pandora refer to Animal Kingdom. They only leaned to this further as the years went on, and have done this in basically every Magic Kingdom style park built since.

And of course, above all this, from opening day the Disneyland Railroad connected the different lands and was purposefully visible in nearly all of them but especially Tomorrowland, which was the main point of my post.
 
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EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
Yes! That was excellent as well. At Disneyland I kept riding the steamboat trying to get photos of the train along the rocks but I missed it everytime! Ha.

I’ve spent so much time around coal smoke with steam locomotives a little tobacco probably isn’t going to do me in. Besides the smoking area was only one portion of the pathway.


Why is a parade float with video screens and loud modern pop music rolling down Main Street? I like “shake yo tail feather” but it seems that hearing it could slightly break the immersion of Main Street USA.
I’ve enjoyed the occasional cigar but I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone smoke a cigar at Disney outside that cigar shop. Cigarette smoke is just disgusting to me lol. When I did use that path it was either in the morning or at night. The Peoplemover is actually another great place to watch trains from if you’re lucky. The very beginning of the Fantasyland side of the path closest to the station has some great views too.
BDAC2C0D-8FD3-4175-9AF4-6E6F1EAACC42.jpeg
 

montyz81

Well-Known Member
Hate to say it, but pre 1994 the train was intentionally visible in front of Space Mountain.
About 5 or 6 years ago, I was standing at the skyway station bathrooms looking out towards the Contemporary. I may have fabricated a memory at that point. The memory or recollection was not remembering the ability to see the train pass between the Contemporary and Tomorrowland line of sight. The manifestation was understanding or learning about the original designer's need to keep up show by purposely placing the Contemporary so that it would blend in with the theme (similar to Morocco and ToT). Applying that learning to the fact that I don't ever remember seeing the train within Tomorrowland when looking at the Contemporary when I was a kid visiting the parks (1981-1983). Was it because I was too small or young to notice (I was 10)? Was it a coincidence that the train just wasn't there each time I looked in that direction? I don't know. I do know I was convinced that some means were constructed that always prevented me from seeing that train in Tomorrowland and then being disappointed that I could see it in the 2010s.

I blame Walt himself for setting the expectation of not wanting to break theming and WDW designers fulfilling on that by building tunnels under MK. Although, I may have set my expectations a bit higher, thinking that the WDC was capable of anything.
 

marni1971

WDW History nut
Premium Member
About 5 or 6 years ago, I was standing at the skyway station bathrooms looking out towards the Contemporary. I may have fabricated a memory at that point. The memory or recollection was not remembering the ability to see the train pass between the Contemporary and Tomorrowland line of sight. The manifestation was understanding or learning about the original designer's need to keep up show by purposely placing the Contemporary so that it would blend in with the theme (similar to Morocco and ToT). Applying that learning to the fact that I don't ever remember seeing the train within Tomorrowland when looking at the Contemporary when I was a kid visiting the parks (1981-1983). Was it because I was too small or young to notice (I was 10)? Was it a coincidence that the train just wasn't there each time I looked in that direction? I don't know. I do know I was convinced that some means were constructed that always prevented me from seeing that train in Tomorrowland and then being disappointed that I could see it in the 2010s.

I blame Walt himself for setting the expectation of not wanting to break theming and WDW designers fulfilling on that by building tunnels under MK. Although, I may have set my expectations a bit higher, thinking that the WDC was capable of anything.
There is a berm between the skyway building and the CoP to try to hide the train (but not it’s steam) - trees have now helped to block the intended Contemporary view from here.
 

montyz81

Well-Known Member
About 5 or 6 years ago, I was standing at the skyway station bathrooms looking out towards the Contemporary. I may have fabricated a memory at that point. The memory or recollection was not remembering the ability to see the train pass between the Contemporary and Tomorrowland line of sight. The manifestation was understanding or learning about the original designer's need to keep up show by purposely placing the Contemporary so that it would blend in with the theme (similar to Morocco and ToT). Applying that learning to the fact that I don't ever remember seeing the train within Tomorrowland when looking at the Contemporary when I was a kid visiting the parks (1981-1983). Was it because I was too small or young to notice (I was 10)? Was it a coincidence that the train just wasn't there each time I looked in that direction? I don't know. I do know I was convinced that some means were constructed that always prevented me from seeing that train in Tomorrowland and then being disappointed that I could see it in the 2010s.

I blame Walt himself for setting the expectation of not wanting to break theming and WDW designers fulfilling on that by building tunnels under MK. Although, I may have set my expectations a bit higher, thinking that the WDC was capable of anything.
This is me admitting I was wrong and trying to say that it was a simple act of little kid imagination seeping into big kid expectations.
 

TrainChasers

Well-Known Member
I’ve enjoyed the occasional cigar but I don’t think I’ve ever seen someone smoke a cigar at Disney outside that cigar shop. Cigarette smoke is just disgusting to me lol. When I did use that path it was either in the morning or at night. The Peoplemover is actually another great place to watch trains from if you’re lucky. The very beginning of the Fantasyland side of the path closest to the station has some great views too.View attachment 551216
Yes! That view will thankfully remain! It was a nice touch for Disney to add that spot for taking photos of and watching the train.

I would get photos at the station and then walk down the path and get different shots as the train departed. Since that’s really the only grade on the railroad it was a great place to hear the engines work a little as well.
 

MichRX7

Well-Known Member
Wow, this is one deep rabbit hole from the original topic. @marni1971 please figure out how to convince someone that it is good show to have Tron ready by the time my family arrives the Saturday after our US Thanksgiving. ;)
 

SilentWindODoom

Well-Known Member
The Barnstormer queue isn't at ground-level. I'm doubtful it can be fixed from that perspective. From other areas in SBC it's already obstructed at ground-level by other weenies and a few trees.

The land is littered with posters held between two posts. Similar posters or colored panels could be used here to block it out and focus guests on the ride itself in that stretch. There's already some frames with awnings there. An expansion of this structure could go a way to obstructing if that's the plan.

Rumors and the facts point to pent-up demand, higher vaccination rates than anticipated and lower case numbers, may be causing a boost to capacity. Disney has already started to call back more cast, and has supposedly added more Park Pass availability for the summer. Rumblings also show that nighttime entertainment may be returning sooner than later. I can almost guarantee you, the old saying “if you build it, they will come” still stands. Will we be seeing Christmas Eve number capacity? No. Would opening up capacity and choosing not to drag their feet on two attractions that should’ve been open this year (Tron & GOTG) as well as Ratatouille help bring in more guests? Yes. I’m no insider and am just going off what I’ve read and past experience with the parks and what not. It is clear that Disney is terrified of a covid case being traced back to the parks and resorts, the NBA bubble showed that they have the logistical means and know how to prevent it. It was also probably a great PR boost for them, guests see that the NBA players spent weeks at WDW and almost no cases. I think there was one or two? I’m not disputing your claim and am just kind of adding my two cents. I responded to you because it was the most relevant

But if you don't build it, won't they come anyway? Hasn't every instance that has occurred in the past not included a year-long buildup of cautious people and international guests wanting to go but being delayed? This is not just in response to this comment, but the one comparing this to people waiting for Galaxy's Edge.

I'd love them to finish everything. I want a new Imagination and all of the Epcot things that we hoped would come. I hope they never pause. But I can't say it isn't the smart thing to do to avoid the panic of coming in at a loss and I'm not even sure finishing any project would bring an appreciable increase from what's already going to come.

This to me is one of the great misconceptions of the contemporary perspective on Themed Design - that placemaking is only as good as it is insular.

Disneyland and Magic Kingdom, two of the greatest themed design efforts in history, both frequently, intentionally, and successfully buck this rule. Anyone suggesting that the Train "breaks the immersion" of Tomorrowland is missing the point. At Disneyland the Train has been visibly passing through Tomorrowland since Opening Day and stopping in it since 1958, and at Walt Disney World there has (until now) always been a prominent stretch of track during which the train was consciously shown off rather than hidden. As Martin says, it was intentionally visible in front of Space Mountain. These were no accidents, they were intentional - as you said, the Train is meant to be a thread that strings the whole park together.

By this standard, Sleeping Beauty Castle is placed at the end of Main Street only because Walt Disney didn't have the resources to mask it off - but we know this isn't true, the Castle's placement at the end of Main Street was half the point of the park. Same with Cinderella Castle, which takes things a step further and is intentionally visible from every land in the park - the presence of the Castle is not an example of Thematic Intrusion, its juxtaposition is purposeful and serves a point higher than the "immersion" of any one land. Who ever looked and said "oh man, I really thought we were in a Space Port until those Medieval Spires ruined the illusion"? No one, and you're not really meant to. Ultimately, before the park is Tomorrowland or Main Street or Frontierland, it is The Magic Kingdom.

This is even more true at Disneyland, where the Monorail, Train, Matterhorn, Skyway, Castle, and more all do (or did) run through or past eachother to a spectacular effect that would never meet the standard of "immersion" where unrelated properties and periods are screened off from each other. The intermingling of these elements has always been one of the great strengths of Disneyland - a feature of its mission, not a liability against it. The purpose of the Berm was to keep the world from intruding on Disneyland, not to keep Disneyland from intruding on itself.

There are, of course, things that SHOULD be masked - unthemed showbuildings should of course be hidden, and things like Rapunzel's Tower are examples of actual thematic intrusion because the view of it from Liberty Square was simply not accounted for in its design - its visibility from there is purposeless. But conscious, considered design can successfully place elements from seemingly disparate stories together to create a new one - the story of the greater Park. This is what WED was doing, and what the current ethos of Imagineering frequently fails to recognize.

That attractions, lands, and even parks are now typically designed with a different methodology is fine and legitimate - there are a number of things built to this end in the last 20 years that achieve spectacular results in this style. But that is a relatively newer approach in the lifetime of the medium. To suggest that Disney themed design has always been in a race towards this end and merely fell far short back in the day is both to retcon what was actually happening and miss the great, great successes of that earlier approach. People have ALWAYS felt immersed in The Magic Kingdom and Disneyland, but that's not DESPITE the presence of a Castle at the end of a turn-of-the-century street or a steam engine in Tomorrowland, it is much more BECAUSE of it.

These are places where "anything can happen", as long as they stoke the imagination rather than ruin the magic. The Train does the former and not the latter.

Disneyland was the original "Magic Kingdom" and all castle parks work the same way. Like you said, that's the umbrella theme above the theme of each land. The train is the same way. Castle at the center, train on the perimeter, and skyway which once flew overhead. These are Magic Kingdom standards, but they're the exception to the rule in this respect.

The thing that sticks with me here is the tree in Disneyland's Frontierland. The giant tree they put in to hide the Matterhorn. Why hide the mountain when the train rolls through Tomorrowland? Some thematic intrusions were considered acceptable and some weren't. Galaxy's Edge seems to have been designed so that it would provide a good backdrop to the new Rivers of America so they still have it in mind. And, of course,

So, in the end, I don't think the train is immersion breaking. It's a part of the hyper-reality. These lands were never real. They are in truth all fantasy, and those which may not have meant to have been were based on conceptions that are indeed fantasy. We hold them to a high standard of immersion because they did very well with it. They were never perfect and comparing today to then and saying the current company has thrown immersion away while the skyway gave views of unthemed showbuildings (which is different from the earlier mentioned hyper-realism of buckets flying over an alpine village) is just inventing a standard that is more legend than fact.

(Like you did with the other person, this is more overall talk and not wholely based on this comment, but jumps off a few of your points.)
 

EricsBiscuit

Well-Known Member
Yes! That view will thankfully remain! It was a nice touch for Disney to add that spot for taking photos of and watching the train.

I would get photos at the station and then walk down the path and get different shots as the train departed. Since that’s really the only grade on the railroad it was a great place to hear the engines work a little as well.
Yes! Great place to tell the difference between experienced and inexperienced engineers was that grade. Always fun to watch haha
 

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