Tramway project and security relocation at TTC.

[peter11435]

Thought it was just moving toward MK busloop and ferry dock with the existing main entrance station going monorail-only.

Where did you get that idea?

 

[DisneyJoe]

From what i am hearing it sounds like the bag checks and metal detectors are going to be moving away from the main entrance at Magic kingdom and out to the resorts (monorail, contemporary and boat entrance) and the TTC in mid April. Once you are through those there will be no checks at MK main gate. Just in time for Easter.

They will still need to check those coming in at the MK bus loop, but otherwise I believe you are correct.

 

[Goofyernmost]

There will always be something to target, but it's about protecting what they can. Moving security away from the MK entrance seems to be the main goal here, not just to eliminate a soft target but also for general safety.

We can beat this to death and still disagree about security, but have you ever been stuck in the mass of people after getting off a bus, boat, or monorail? I don't know how anyone can feel safe there in the event of an emergency, so I applaud Disney for seeking alternatives. There is much more space to work with on the TTC side of the lagoon, that's a simple fact.

I can feel safe because I don't think about it. If I'm stuck in a crowd anywhere you have no control over events if they are going to happen. One thing I did learn in training when I was a bus driver was that you are better off in a crowd. This will sound morbid, but, what we essentially are talking about is our own personal protection and feeling safe. Crowds of people could easily protect you from harm if they are between you and the trouble. To put it coldly, think backstop. Something to stop the junk, bullets, bomb fragments, etc. before they get to you. Standing out alone in a location is the most dangerous for your overall well being. Perhaps, it's not the best idea to attempt to always be first in line!

I know, it sounds heartless, but, we are talking about survival here, not ethics. No matter what you do in the line of security, there will be spots left open. You do not attempt to cover every single spot, all you can do is try and stop obvious stuff from making it into the parks. If you think that that small area in TTC is a potential target, what does that make the fireworks show at MK, when there is nothing but a sea of humanity from the castle, thought the open area in front of it, all the way down main street. Sound scary... it should!

 

[Goofyernmost]

Don't tell us. Tell them! The TTC has been deemed an area that needs to be within the sterile zone.

Well, you guys tell me that there are people of importance that monitor these boards. If that is the case... I just did!

 

[Goofyernmost]

if we just accept it the bad people win

the primary reason for doing security like planned in the diagram, is that it allows passage from epcot to MK 'within" the bubble, meaning guests dont have to go thru security twice

Except for those that came in another way. Seriously, you don't think that they are going to walk in fully armed though the main gate do you? There are miles of perimeter, mostly unpatrolled to get in from. Security is fine as far as it goes, but, what you see is strictly superficial, useful psychologically and physically for other things, but, terrorist attacks? Only in our dreams would that be able to stop one.

 

[Creathir]

I can feel safe because I don't think about it. If I'm stuck in a crowd anywhere you have no control over events if they are going to happen. One thing I did learn in training when I was a bus driver was that you are better off in a crowd. This will sound morbid, but, what we essentially are talking about is our own personal protection and feeling safe. Crowds of people could easily protect you from harm if they are between you and the trouble. To put it coldly, think backstop. Something to stop the junk, bullets, bomb fragments, etc. before they get to you. Standing out alone in a location is the most dangerous for your overall well being. Perhaps, it's not the best idea to attempt to always be first in line!

I know, it sounds heartless, but, we are talking about survival here, not ethics. No matter what you do in the line of security, there will be spots left open. You do not attempt to cover every single spot, all you can do is try and stop obvious stuff from making it into the parks. If you think that that small area in TTC is a potential target, what does that make the fireworks show at MK, when there is nothing but a sea of humanity from the castle, thought the open area in front of it, all the way down main street. Sound scary... it should!

So what you're saying is, zebras are geniuses.

 

[Disney-Trains]

I noticed some construction at the resort boat dock (the small one near the resort monorail station) and I wonder if they will do checks there as people get off the boats. Since that dock only serves the small boats to Polynesian and Grand, it would Make sense to only have to pay 1 set of security rather than 2.

 

[Biff215]

I can feel safe because I don't think about it. If I'm stuck in a crowd anywhere you have no control over events if they are going to happen. One thing I did learn in training when I was a bus driver was that you are better off in a crowd. This will sound morbid, but, what we essentially are talking about is our own personal protection and feeling safe. Crowds of people could easily protect you from harm if they are between you and the trouble. To put it coldly, think backstop. Something to stop the junk, bullets, bomb fragments, etc. before they get to you. Standing out alone in a location is the most dangerous for your overall well being. Perhaps, it's not the best idea to attempt to always be first in line!

I know, it sounds heartless, but, we are talking about survival here, not ethics. No matter what you do in the line of security, there will be spots left open. You do not attempt to cover every single spot, all you can do is try and stop obvious stuff from making it into the parks. If you think that that small area in TTC is a potential target, what does that make the fireworks show at MK, when there is nothing but a sea of humanity from the castle, thought the open area in front of it, all the way down main street. Sound scary... it should!

I'll agree to disagree. I don't walk into the MK fearing terrorists, but I do believe they have an issue with the entrance area that they're trying to solve. It's not about the TTC. It's about spreading out the crowds to make security more effective and efficient. Will it work? I guess we'll have to wait and see. But at least they're trying to address the problem IMO.

 

[Goofyernmost]

So what you're saying is, zebras are geniuses.

That's what I herd!

 

[jrlang1]

I think the move is also about guest flow as well as space. In front of mk the flow of people come in waves as each monorail or ferry drop of many people at a time where as at ttc the flow is a little more steady.

 

[Gabe1]

It's about spreading out the crowds to make security more effective and efficient. Will it work? I guess we'll have to wait and see. But at least they're trying to address the problem IMO.

Half heartedly for a decade and a half. Most Corporations, airports heck even sports arenas got on the mega improvements after 9/11. I watched in the months after what they did to both the Sears Tower and Hancock in Chicago. I admire the master plan of Uni-Florida. So much easier to xray a backpack then one by one rifle through guests bags which I wonder just how efficient that is. The metal detectors could have come immediately after 9/11 given a bit of time from order to delivery. The effectiveness of 2016 randomly selecting a small percentage of guests to go through the metal detectors? I don't know, Im kinda disappointed in Disney 2017-given all this time I had more faith in the Corporation to have rolled out a more comprehensive grand plan for WDW. I don't believe anything is foolproof anywhere but I'd be lying to myself to believe Disney has a good grasp on effectiveness and efficiency when it comes to guests and their security methodology.

 

[Slowjack]

if we just accept it the bad people win

I would disagree. By accepting what we can't solve, we win; but if we flail around like frightened children, we lose. The point of terrorism is to put fear in our hearts and make us change how we live. If we make ourselves go through elaborate--but ultimately, useless--security checks before we go into a Disney World park, what are we doing besides reminding ourselves of terrorism?

This is why airport security drives me nuts. When you leave MCO now it can take an hour or more to go through security. MCO has over 50,000 passenger departures a day. That means that collectively, it's a wait of over five person-years spent every day in that stupid line, for a system that, by its own tests, misses 80% of contraband, and even if it were foolproof, would only ensure that the line itself is targeted and not what lies behind it.

 

[FullSailDan]

Half heartedly for a decade and a half. Most Corporations, airports heck even sports arenas got on the mega improvements after 9/11. I watched in the months after what they did to both the Sears Tower and Hancock in Chicago. I admire the master plan of Uni-Florida. So much easier to xray a backpack then one by one rifle through guests bags which I wonder just how efficient that is. The metal detectors could have come immediately after 9/11 given a bit of time from order to delivery. The effectiveness of 2016 randomly selecting a small percentage of guests to go through the metal detectors? I don't know, Im kinda disappointed in Disney 2017-given all this time I had more faith in the Corporation to have rolled out a more comprehensive grand plan for WDW. I don't believe anything is foolproof anywhere but I'd be lying to myself to believe Disney has a good grasp on effectiveness and efficiency when it comes to guests and their security methodology.

So I'll add what I know: In the last few years the company has started to take threats at the park much more seriously. There have been considerable efforts to get senior leadership involved in regular communications with the feds about the current threat landscape in the US and to facilitate the sharing of information. This goes for their cyber security operations as well, though much of their fear around that came from the Sony hacks. I had a direct hand in the cyber piece. Sadly I can say, like most companies when it comes to cyber, they lost steam after not "seeing" threats materialize. They set a pretty low baseline and didn't like the price tag associated with fixing some of the more difficult issues.

They began working on installing more advanced physical security measures when specific intel was shared showing there had been chatter about the vulnerability of theme parks in terrorism circles. I cannot comment as to whether this was specific to Disney parks or not, I did not see the specific intel. During the ramp up there have been many consultations with security professionals and threat analysts over the weak points in their operation. (One of the analysts is actually an old friend from my days with 3 letter agencies in DC. They stayed with us during their trip.) I know for a fact, one of the things brought up was the pooling of guests around the main entrance to MK and other areas with crowding outside a secured area. They did take that very seriously. There were also discussions about the quality of the security checks, vehicle backups, lane widths, alternate routes, access and support routes, etc.

We obviously see there is a plan to fix this, and one thing Disney MUST keep in mind is guest perception to security screening. It can't be akin to TSA. People hate airport security, and the last thing they want to do is make it burdensome to a point that guests don't want to go. In particular the type of guest they are seeking more and more, is not one that wants obtrusive security. Also, the more checks a security guard does per day, the less effective they become. So I think you'll start to see more of a focus on creating tiered security zones, with more ability to move about the parks without a need to reprocess. Express park hopping is exactly the kind of offering that proves people want this.You wont see, but it will happen, upgrades to the security measures cast experience, and significant technology upgrades on the security before you hit the TTC.

I'll also throw in, before someone redeems an AP certificate their info is screened. There may be plans to expand this, but it's difficult/expensive to get that information quickly. All depends on how much cooperation/cost sharing with the right agencies happens.

 

[DznyRktekt]

So I'll add what I know: In the last few years the company has started to take threats at the park much more seriously. There have been considerable efforts to get senior leadership involved in regular communications with the feds about the current threat landscape in the US and to facilitate the sharing of information. This goes for their cyber security operations as well, though much of their fear around that came from the Sony hacks. I had a direct hand in the cyber piece. Sadly I can say, like most companies when it comes to cyber, they lost steam after not "seeing" threats materialize. They set a pretty low baseline and didn't like the price tag associated with fixing some of the more difficult issues.

They began working on installing more advanced physical security measures when specific intel was shared showing there had been chatter about the vulnerability of theme parks in terrorism circles. I cannot comment as to whether this was specific to Disney parks or not, I did not see the specific intel. During the ramp up there have been many consultations with security professionals and threat analysts over the weak points in their operation. (One of the analysts is actually an old friend from my days with 3 letter agencies in DC. They stayed with us during their trip.) I know for a fact, one of the things brought up was the pooling of guests around the main entrance to MK and other areas with crowding outside a secured area. They did take that very seriously. There were also discussions about the quality of the security checks, vehicle backups, lane widths, alternate routes, access and support routes, etc.

We obviously see there is a plan to fix this, and one thing Disney MUST keep in mind is guest perception to security screening. It can't be akin to TSA. People hate airport security, and the last thing they want to do is make it burdensome to a point that guests don't want to go. In particular the type of guest they are seeking more and more, is not one that wants obtrusive security. Also, the more checks a security guard does per day, the less effective they become. So I think you'll start to see more of a focus on creating tiered security zones, with more ability to move about the parks without a need to reprocess. Express park hopping is exactly the kind of offering that proves people want this.You wont see, but it will happen, upgrades to the security measures cast experience, and significant technology upgrades on the security before you hit the TTC.

I'll also throw in, before someone redeems an AP certificate their info is screened. There may be plans to expand this, but it's difficult/expensive to get that information quickly. All depends on how much cooperation/cost sharing with the right agencies happens.

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing this quality info.

 

[Gabe1]

So I'll add what I know: In the last few years the company has started to take threats at the park much more seriously. There have been considerable efforts to get senior leadership involved in regular communications with the feds about the current threat landscape in the US and to facilitate the sharing of information. This goes for their cyber security operations as well, though much of their fear around that came from the Sony hacks. I had a direct hand in the cyber piece. Sadly I can say, like most companies when it comes to cyber, they lost steam after not "seeing" threats materialize. They set a pretty low baseline and didn't like the price tag associated with fixing some of the more difficult issues.

They began working on installing more advanced physical security measures when specific intel was shared showing there had been chatter about the vulnerability of theme parks in terrorism circles. I cannot comment as to whether this was specific to Disney parks or not, I did not see the specific intel. During the ramp up there have been many consultations with security professionals and threat analysts over the weak points in their operation. (One of the analysts is actually an old friend from my days with 3 letter agencies in DC. They stayed with us during their trip.) I know for a fact, one of the things brought up was the pooling of guests around the main entrance to MK and other areas with crowding outside a secured area. They did take that very seriously. There were also discussions about the quality of the security checks, vehicle backups, lane widths, alternate routes, access and support routes, etc.

We obviously see there is a plan to fix this, and one thing Disney MUST keep in mind is guest perception to security screening. It can't be akin to TSA. People hate airport security, and the last thing they want to do is make it burdensome to a point that guests don't want to go. In particular the type of guest they are seeking more and more, is not one that wants obtrusive security. Also, the more checks a security guard does per day, the less effective they become. So I think you'll start to see more of a focus on creating tiered security zones, with more ability to move about the parks without a need to reprocess. Express park hopping is exactly the kind of offering that proves people want this.You wont see, but it will happen, upgrades to the security measures cast experience, and significant technology upgrades on the security before you hit the TTC.

I'll also throw in, before someone redeems an AP certificate their info is screened. There may be plans to expand this, but it's difficult/expensive to get that information quickly. All depends on how much cooperation/cost sharing with the right agencies happens.

Disappointing. Only 1.5 decades later are they now taking threats more seriously if what you stated is true. After 9/11 you'd have thought everything regarding threats would have been taken more seriously.

 

[FullSailDan]

Disappointing. Only 1.5 decades later are they now taking threats more seriously if what you stated is true. After 9/11 you'd have thought everything regarding threats would have been taken more seriously.

9/11 was not a significant reason for security to increase at venues like this. People went a little crazy thinking everything needed to have searches etc when there wasnt any significant threats shown. Hell if you really want to use that logic, why not the Atlanta Olympics?!

 

[mm121]

I noticed some construction at the resort boat dock (the small one near the resort monorail station) and I wonder if they will do checks there as people get off the boats. Since that dock only serves the small boats to Polynesian and Grand, it would Make sense to only have to pay 1 set of security rather than 2.

dont think there's ever been any definitive info about the resort boats security yet

however since they are smaller and less capacity, despite what some have thought, i think its unlikely they will put screening at each dock.

 

[Ripken10]

9/11 was not a significant reason for security to increase at venues like this. People went a little crazy thinking everything needed to have searches etc when there wasnt any significant threats shown. Hell if you really want to use that logic, why not the Atlanta Olympics?!

or after the '72 Munich Olympics...or after...it has always been around, and some would argue just more documented now, which results in people being more scared, but not changing the actual threat levels (over time, not pointing to a particular point).

 

[Gabe1]

9/11 was not a significant reason for security to increase at venues like this. People went a little crazy thinking everything needed to have searches etc when there wasnt any significant threats shown. Hell if you really want to use that logic, why not the Atlanta Olympics?!

Wow. Just Wow.

And what event has transpired greater than 9/11 to warrant changes now??? You really don't have to answer 'cause I see the type of conjecture that is being presented as fact.

Done

 

[Creathir]

Wow. Just Wow.

And what event has transpired greater than 9/11 to warrant changes now??? You really don't have to answer 'cause I see the type of conjecture that is being presented as fact.

Done

9/11 was a huge deal. Yes terrorists attacked before and since, but 3,000 US citizens died that day.

It was a big freaking deal.

Disney should have stepped up security then.