Training transition from 13 miles to 26 miles, I have questions.... Help please.

[dreamfinder]

Non of my friends are runners and I don't really want "running friends" Talking to you folks is cool, but I think if I had to sit down to dinner or coffee with another person comparing running notes, I might get up and...run.

I hear you. The guys at the local 5k who think it is the end all be all. And comparing notes on every single thing they did during the race. Yikes. A bit much for me. I did laugh at the last 5k where there were two college runners who walked up to each other.
"You shooting for 16 today?"
"Yeah."
"Cool".
Like doing a 16 minutes 5k was nothing at all.

I found adding on the miles was really just a motivation thing. I decided if I could run a half by a certain point, then I would register for the full. I did, but damn. Just keeping moving for 4-5 hours during training got so monotonous. But I thought of running at Disney, how much I had paid to have that privilege, and gosh darn it, I was gonna keep moving during the whole thing. The cost part along got my behind out of bed more than once let me tell you.

 

[MKCP 1985]

For me (and I have attempted and completed a grand total of one full marathon) the event is all about 2 things:


1. Finishing 26.2 miles is a long way, so I don't personally want to get to mile 18 or mile 20 and have to stop due to injury or exhaustion.

2. Having Fun I didn't kill anyone or steal their baby, so there is no need to feel punished or guilty for how I get to 26.2. The race director has given us enough time to run, walk or do a combination and when I take walk breaks (whatever they may be), I'm still coming out ahead of whatever else I might have done that day had I not entered a marathon.

Fret not, fair souls. You aren't going to win the race, so you might as well enjoy yourself along the way as best you can given the scope of a 26.2 mile endeavor.

That said, I have tried running the entire distance of my training runs (not full marathons!) even when totally gassed and I have much more often taken walk breaks and have found my personal results are faster with the walk breaks. Haven't you ever been trying to slog on when completely exhausted and realized, "I could WALK faster than THIS." ??

To answer the question of how to transition, my non-expert answer is this:

Have 2 or 3 days per week of 45 minute to 1 hour runs. During those training runs, mix in some speed work with combination of fast pace / slow down and recover, and one one day per week, do a 3 hour run. Don't even worry about how fast you are going or how far you make it (unless you have to get back to a start point). Just be in motion and burning calories and carbs for that 3 hours per week during your training. You will find that come race day, if you can stay calm and pace yourself, you WILL finish the race.

 

[joel_maxwell]

For me (and I have attempted and completed a grand total of one full marathon) the event is all about 2 things:


1. Finishing 26.2 miles is a long way, so I don't personally want to get to mile 18 or mile 20 and have to stop due to injury or exhaustion.

2. Having Fun I didn't kill anyone or steal their baby, so there is no need to feel punished or guilty for how I get to 26.2. The race director has given us enough time to run, walk or do a combination and when I take walk breaks (whatever they may be), I'm still coming out ahead of whatever else I might have done that day had I not entered a marathon.

Fret not, fair souls. You aren't going to win the race, so you might as well enjoy yourself along the way as best you can given the scope of a 26.2 mile endeavor.

That said, I have tried running the entire distance of my training runs (not full marathons!) even when totally gassed and I have much more often taken walk breaks and have found my personal results are faster with the walk breaks. Haven't you ever been trying to slog on when completely exhausted and realized, "I could WALK faster than THIS." ??

To answer the question of how to transition, my non-expert answer is this:

Have 2 or 3 days per week of 45 minute to 1 hour runs. During those training runs, mix in some speed work with combination of fast pace / slow down and recover, and one one day per week, do a 3 hour run. Don't even worry about how fast you are going or how far you make it (unless you have to get back to a start point). Just be in motion and burning calories and carbs for that 3 hours per week during your training. You will find that come race day, if you can stay calm and pace yourself, you WILL finish the race.

I smiled pretty big at this. :lol: So true.

I like what you said Doug. Im reading Non-Runners Guide to a Marathon. The first few chapters are things I already know, but it is good to read again. One of the major things they say in your first marathon, is do not set a time goal. Why do that to yourself. Why risk finishing a marathon and then have that "I was trying to finish under 4 hours and came up 5 minutes short" lingering over your head.

The competitor in me is still telling myself that I will do it under 4 but would really like to do it in 3:45:00. Here again, lets just celebrate the fact the one finishes.

Did I read someplace that only 8% of runners complete a marathon?

 

[Phonedave]

I would say that was my thinking for the longest time.

"If I walk once, the second time will be easier, and the third time I walk I wont even think about it. It will just happen"

Then, as I compared my running times this past summer to days I walked for 30 seconds after every 3 miles (since it was 90+ degrees) and days I made myself keep running and no walk breaks. The results were interesting. The times were the same or better.

I would take 1 or 2 30 second walk breaks on a 10 mile run just to take fluids and GU. I would always feel extremely rested after that little mental break.

I guess it is "whatever works for you" type mentality which is the beauty of it. I just find all the different mentalities entertaining since I am at peace with what i want to do.

The way I look at it, a walk is nothing more than a slower paced run.

I think everyone will agree that you don't come out of the box on a marathon running the same pace you would for a 5K. If you try and run flat out from the very beginning, you will start to slow down a LOT towards the end.

If slowing your running pace down (or, gasp, walking) for a breif interval allows you to maintain a better overall pace, than it helps. It's a 26.2 mile race. Lets say you want to run a 10 min/mile pace. Thats a target time of 262 minutes. If I take 6 walk breaks of 30 seconds each, where I walk at a pace of 20 min/mile (and thats pretty slow), I cover 0.15 miles total in those 3 minutes of walking. At race pace, I should have covered those 0.15 miles in 0.15 * 10 = 1.5 minutes, but I took 3, so now I have fallen behind race pace by 1.5 minutes.

That means I have 26.2 - 0.15 = 26.05 miles to "make up" that 1.5 minutes. 1.5 minutes over 26.2 miles is 0.0725 minutes (or 3.4 seconds per mile. So that means if I run my 26.2 miles at 10.00 minutes per mile I will finish with a time of 262 minutes. Or if I run at 9:56.6 minutes per mile, and I take 6, 30 second walk breaks where I stroll at 20:00 minutes per mile i will still have a total time of 262 minutes.

I would hazard a guess, that if I am taking 6 walk breaks in the race, I can push my 10:00 / mile running pace to better than 9:56.6 / mile

And here is the real kicker. If I take those 6 slow walk breaks of 30 seconds each, which is roughly a walk every 4 miles, I will finish in 1.5 minutes more than I would have if I ran straight through.

I may be crazy, but if the differnce between 4:22:00 and 4:23:30 means I can take 6 walk breaks, I think the walk breaks are well worth it.

-dave

 

[fmingo36]

The way I look at it, a walk is nothing more than a slower paced run.

I think everyone will agree that you don't come out of the box on a marathon running the same pace you would for a 5K. If you try and run flat out from the very beginning, you will start to slow down a LOT towards the end.

If slowing your running pace down (or, gasp, walking) for a breif interval allows you to maintain a better overall pace, than it helps. It's a 26.2 mile race. Lets say you want to run a 10 min/mile pace. Thats a target time of 262 minutes. If I take 6 walk breaks of 30 seconds each, where I walk at a pace of 20 min/mile (and thats pretty slow), I cover 0.15 miles total in those 3 minutes of walking. At race pace, I should have covered those 0.15 miles in 0.15 * 10 = 1.5 minutes, but I took 3, so now I have fallen behind race pace by 1.5 minutes.

That means I have 26.2 - 0.15 = 26.05 miles to "make up" that 1.5 minutes. 1.5 minutes over 26.2 miles is 0.0725 minutes (or 3.4 seconds per mile. So that means if I run my 26.2 miles at 10.00 minutes per mile I will finish with a time of 262 minutes. Or if I run at 9:56.6 minutes per mile, and I take 6, 30 second walk breaks where I stroll at 20:00 minutes per mile i will still have a total time of 262 minutes.

I would hazard a guess, that if I am taking 6 walk breaks in the race, I can push my 10:00 / mile running pace to better than 9:56.6 / mile

And here is the real kicker. If I take those 6 slow walk breaks of 30 seconds each, which is roughly a walk every 4 miles, I will finish in 1.5 minutes more than I would have if I ran straight through.

I may be crazy, but if the differnce between 4:22:00 and 4:23:30 means I can take 6 walk breaks, I think the walk breaks are well worth it.

-dave

What a great breakdown of time and it really shows you that unless you are trying to win the race, 1 minute or 2 minutes is really not going to make much of a difference.

 

[fmingo36]

One of the major things they say in your first marathon, is do not set a time goal. Why do that to yourself. Why risk finishing a marathon and then have that "I was trying to finish under 4 hours and came up 5 minutes short" lingering over your head.

The competitor in me is still telling myself that I will do it under 4 but would really like to do it in 3:45:00. Here again, lets just celebrate the fact the one finishes.

Did I read someplace that only 8% of runners complete a marathon?

I'm setting a goal of finishing in 8 hours (although I realisticly think I'll be close to the 5 hour mark). That way when I finish under 8 hours I can say not only did I finish the marathon but I finished it under my set goal time. :lol:

 

[Wilt Dasney]

I'm setting a goal of finishing in 8 hours (although I realisticly think I'll be close to the 5 hour mark). That way when I finish under 8 hours I can say not only did I finish the marathon but I finished it under my set goal time. :lol:

That should be doable, since I think Disney requires you to be off the course in 7 (if you want a medal, at least). :lol:

 

[fmingo36]

That should be doable, since I think Disney requires you to be off the course in 7 (if you want a medal, at least). :lol:

Oops-I thought it was 8 hours.

 

[joel_maxwell]

The way I look at it, a walk is nothing more than a slower paced run.

I think everyone will agree that you don't come out of the box on a marathon running the same pace you would for a 5K. If you try and run flat out from the very beginning, you will start to slow down a LOT towards the end.

If slowing your running pace down (or, gasp, walking) for a breif interval allows you to maintain a better overall pace, than it helps. It's a 26.2 mile race. Lets say you want to run a 10 min/mile pace. Thats a target time of 262 minutes. If I take 6 walk breaks of 30 seconds each, where I walk at a pace of 20 min/mile (and thats pretty slow), I cover 0.15 miles total in those 3 minutes of walking. At race pace, I should have covered those 0.15 miles in 0.15 * 10 = 1.5 minutes, but I took 3, so now I have fallen behind race pace by 1.5 minutes.

That means I have 26.2 - 0.15 = 26.05 miles to "make up" that 1.5 minutes. 1.5 minutes over 26.2 miles is 0.0725 minutes (or 3.4 seconds per mile. So that means if I run my 26.2 miles at 10.00 minutes per mile I will finish with a time of 262 minutes. Or if I run at 9:56.6 minutes per mile, and I take 6, 30 second walk breaks where I stroll at 20:00 minutes per mile i will still have a total time of 262 minutes.

I would hazard a guess, that if I am taking 6 walk breaks in the race, I can push my 10:00 / mile running pace to better than 9:56.6 / mile

And here is the real kicker. If I take those 6 slow walk breaks of 30 seconds each, which is roughly a walk every 4 miles, I will finish in 1.5 minutes more than I would have if I ran straight through.

I may be crazy, but if the differnce between 4:22:00 and 4:23:30 means I can take 6 walk breaks, I think the walk breaks are well worth it.

-dave

I love math. Love the break down Dave. I think I plan on taking a walk break every 5 miles. I have to plan around some water stations, but I think Ill try that ratio.

Although, If I did a break at every 4 miles, that is 1 more break for 30 seconds and not putting a walk break right on the last mile... which happens to be a long straight away to the finish line.

 

[joel_maxwell]

Im placing posting this in this particular thread for a reminder, try to make the best out of your race experience or you might get slapped with a retort/review like this:

This is from the Nashville Rock n Roll Series 2010. It rained very badly and there was such a violent storm that rolled in (tornado's I think), they made runners leave the course. I have a co-worker that was on mile 20. That would suck!

Original:
Tuesday, April 27, 2010 7:52:28 PM
Amyjflorida said:
Worst marathon ever! Nothing but hills, terrible weather, unorganized at race beginning and end!


Retort:
Monday, October 11, 2010 7:35:19 AM
262strait said:
Maybe Amyiflorida is a little weak and did not train hard/good enough because she cant handle the ''hills'' Maybe thats why she thinks it was the worst marathon ever. HEY suck-it up and just run your race or stop running 26.2 and stick with running 5K'S so if you have to run up some ''hills'' at least it should not take very long for you to do it,we want have to here you cry about it, and one more thing STOP TRASHING OUR CITY, OUR RACE, OUR COURSE WITH'' NOTHING BUT HILLS'',AND AS FOR THE WEATHER WELL YOULL JUST JUST HAVE TO TALK TO GOD ABOUT THAT, Nashville has nothing to do with that.Have a nice day Amy just having a little fun with you. It's now time for me to go run some hills!

:lol: CLASSIC. What smack talk.

 

[joel_maxwell]

I "mentioned" to my now pregnant wife that I had signed up for the Full in February.

She is less than thrilled and is quite P.O'd at me. :lookaroun She is cool with 13.1 but she just thinks 26.2 is pushing it safety wise. It doesnt help when articles/stories are written today about the swimmer that died and was in "perfect health". She is freaking out. We all know, the last thing we need in the back of our head plaguing our thoughts is the safety risks. We all know them.

Hopefully time will let her realize that a) im training to prepare my body b) I wouldnt take this on if I didnt think my body could handle it and c) I think running 26.2 in 20 or 30 degree weather is safer than running 13.1 in 80 degree weather, IMHO.

Thoughts on helping me ease her mind?

 

[Master Yoda]

I "mentioned" to my now pregnant wife that I had signed up for the Full in February.

She is less than thrilled and is quite P.O'd at me. :lookaroun She is cool with 13.1 but she just thinks 26.2 is pushing it safety wise. It doesnt help when articles/stories are written today about the swimmer that died and was in "perfect health". She is freaking out. We all know, the last thing we need in the back of our head plaguing our thoughts is the safety risks. We all know them.

Hopefully time will let her realize that a) im training to prepare my body b) I wouldnt take this on if I didnt think my body could handle it and c) I think running 26.2 in 20 or 30 degree weather is safer than running 13.1 in 80 degree weather, IMHO.

Thoughts on helping me ease her mind?

Sam does have somewhat of a valid point. People do indeed die from running marathons however, the chances of this happening are incredibly low. A 20 year study in London concluded that your chances of dying during a marathon are about 1 in 67,414. http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/london-marathon.htmlTo put that into perspective you are much more likely to die on the bus ride over to the race or to be struck by lightning. It would seem that the major causes of runners dropping dead are heart disease, heart defects and hyponatremia (water intoxication).

This is how I would approach this with Sam. First of agree with her. Tell her that you are well aware of the risks but the risks from a statistical standpoint are quite small. The vast majority of the people who do die running marathons are from undiagnosed health problems and were really just as likely to suddenly drop dead while walking through the grocery store. Both you and Sam should pay a visit to your doctor, inform him/her what you are going to do, and get checked out. Lastly you need to show Sam that you are not going to push yourself past the breaking point. If you get injured take the time to heal. Don't do the guy thing were you just tape your compound fracture and keep running. Show Sam that you are listening to your body and will stop if it tells you to.

If none of that works you can lie and tell her that you and I attending some sort of Epcot history convention that weekend.

 

[JillC LI]

If none of that works you can lie and tell her that you and I attending some sort of Epcot history convention that weekend.

:ROFLOL::ROFLOL::ROFLOL::ROFLOL:

Seriously, train smart and your risk of injury will be very low. It's when you increase your long runs too quickly or your overall weekly mileage too quickly (i.e., both by more than 10% from the week before) that you risk harm. Also, too much speed work can be risky and is certainly unnecessary where your goal is simply to finish. By the time I ran the actual marathon, I was truly in the best shape of my life - my cardiovascular system had never been stronger.

 

[joel_maxwell]

Sam does have somewhat of a valid point. People do indeed die from running marathons however, the chances of this happening are incredibly low. A 20 year study in London concluded that your chances of dying during a marathon are about 1 in 67,414. http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/london-marathon.htmlTo put that into perspective you are much more likely to die on the bus ride over to the race or to be struck by lightning. It would seem that the major causes of runners dropping dead are heart disease, heart defects and hyponatremia (water intoxication).

This is how I would approach this with Sam. First of agree with her. Tell her that you are well aware of the risks but the risks from a statistical standpoint are quite small. The vast majority of the people who do die running marathons are from undiagnosed health problems and were really just as likely to suddenly drop dead while walking through the grocery store. Both you and Sam should pay a visit to your doctor, inform him/her what you are going to do, and get checked out. Lastly you need to show Sam that you are not going to push yourself past the breaking point. If you get injured take the time to heal. Don't do the guy thing were you just tape your compound fracture and keep running. Show Sam that you are listening to your body and will stop if it tells you to.

If none of that works you can lie and tell her that you and I attending some sort of Epcot history convention that weekend.

Thanks Richard, Ill use some of these stats and points. I cant blame her. She has lost both her parents. One parent 40 years too early and the other this past year probably 20 years too early. She cant help but be a bit paranoid.

I plan on getting a physical done here shortly. I dont think it would be a bad idea to get all things checked out... well, almost everything. We know one thing works just fine.

:ROFLOL::ROFLOL::ROFLOL::ROFLOL:

Seriously, train smart and your risk of injury will be very low. It's when you increase your long runs too quickly or your overall weekly mileage too quickly (i.e., both by more than 10% from the week before) that you risk harm. Also, too much speed work can be risky and is certainly unnecessary where your goal is simply to finish. By the time I ran the actual marathon, I was truly in the best shape of my life - my cardiovascular system had never been stronger.

I agree Jill. Last year before my second Half I was cardiovascularly in the best shape of my life. This summer was hard with the heat. I think I was quick burst strong (if that makes sense for medium distances 5, 6 or 7 miles) but not strong like training in winter months.

I know Ill be fine, I have no doubt Ill be fine. I think keeping a 8:30-9 minute pace is not over strenuous for my personal makeup. I just have to find a polite way of telling her that I need her support or dont say anything at all.

BTW Jill, I combo speed work with one of my weekday medium runs. It is an interesting combo that I have come up with. I just dont have the time to do all the schedule and then more speed work... so, I run the routine 3, 4 or 5 mile Thursday run in a very hilly neighborhood that I usually train in. I run a moderate pace, nice jog on all the flat surfaces and then burst up the hills of 100-150 meters in length and repeat throughout the route. It covers about 6 good hills. Just making it work.

Thanks Guys and Richard, if I say, "Well, Richard said...." that will carry more weight as if I said, "I read on the internet". Funny but true. :wave:

 

[Ariel484]

For me (and I have attempted and completed a grand total of one full marathon) the event is all about 2 things:


1. Finishing 26.2 miles is a long way, so I don't personally want to get to mile 18 or mile 20 and have to stop due to injury or exhaustion.

2. Having Fun I didn't kill anyone or steal their baby, so there is no need to feel punished or guilty for how I get to 26.2. The race director has given us enough time to run, walk or do a combination and when I take walk breaks (whatever they may be), I'm still coming out ahead of whatever else I might have done that day had I not entered a marathon.

Fret not, fair souls. You aren't going to win the race, so you might as well enjoy yourself along the way as best you can given the scope of a 26.2 mile endeavor.

That said, I have tried running the entire distance of my training runs (not full marathons!) even when totally gassed and I have much more often taken walk breaks and have found my personal results are faster with the walk breaks. Haven't you ever been trying to slog on when completely exhausted and realized, "I could WALK faster than THIS." ??

To answer the question of how to transition, my non-expert answer is this:

Have 2 or 3 days per week of 45 minute to 1 hour runs. During those training runs, mix in some speed work with combination of fast pace / slow down and recover, and one one day per week, do a 3 hour run. Don't even worry about how fast you are going or how far you make it (unless you have to get back to a start point). Just be in motion and burning calories and carbs for that 3 hours per week during your training. You will find that come race day, if you can stay calm and pace yourself, you WILL finish the race.

Thank you for this post...especially #2. I completely agree!