Toy Story Land expansion announced for Disney's Hollywood Studios

[Casper Gutman]

OH, I do. What I don't understand is the generalization of the word fans you throw around. Also the vehement rhetoric that goes along with it. I mean you did say, "It honestly baffles me that folks are OK with a bare coaster at WDW." It baffles you that others have differing views.

A few things: Everything I say is an opinion. So is everything you say. I don't feel the need to clarify that.

And yes, I am surprised by the tendency to defend TSL - and I say this as someone who defends Dinoland and Mermaid. We've seen TSL open in several overseas parks and the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative. What's more, the distaste for bare coasters has been a fairly unanimous position among Disney fans - it's one of the most frequent attacks leveled at Universal. As we move closer to TSL's opening at WDW, suddenly the tide of opinions seems to change.

Now, I don't know you. I don't know your broader views regarding theme parks, so I can't speak to them with any specificity. But there is a definite shift in the tenor of attitudes on these pages to TSL.

 

[LithiumBill]

A few things: Everything I say is an opinion. So is everything you say. I don't feel the need to clarify that.

And yes, I am surprised by the tendency to defend TSL - and I say this as someone who defends Dinoland and Mermaid. We've seen TSL open in several overseas parks and the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative. What's more, the distaste for bare coasters has been a fairly unanimous position among Disney fans - it's one of the most frequent attacks leveled at Universal. As we move closer to TSL's opening at WDW, suddenly the tide of opinions seems to change.

Now, I don't know you. I don't know your broader views regarding theme parks, so I can't speak to them with any specificity. But there is a definite shift in the tenor of attitudes on these pages to TSL.

The other TSL are not the same as this one. We all know that, just by looking at the renderings.

People saying the track is done, and that means the theming is done, are not even close to understanding the details it takes to build these lands. Also this land is not SWGE or Pandora... it's more for kids. In a park that desperately needs it. TOT and RnR are not really kids friendly.

My gripe is being lumped into a generic FAN tag, it's like being called "You People"... its not an accurate tag. Also you seem to be fueled by a UNI vs WDW beef. Personally I adore the fact that both properties are raising the games, makes our vacations more interesting.

TSL is going to be a great themed land, not on par with Potter or Star Wars or Pandora, but a perfect fit for a family area. It might not be your cup of tea, which is fine.

 

[Casper Gutman]

The other TSL are not the same as this one. We all know that, just by looking at the renderings.

People saying the track is done, and that means the theming is done, are not even close to understanding the details it takes to build these lands. Also this land is not SWGE or Pandora... it's more for kids. In a park that desperately needs it. TOT and RnR are not really kids friendly.

My gripe is being lumped into a generic FAN tag, it's like being called "You People"... its not an accurate tag. Also you seem to be fueled by a UNI vs WDW beef. Personally I adore the fact that both properties are raising the games, makes our vacations more interesting.

TSL is going to be a great themed land, not on par with Potter or Star Wars or Pandora, but a perfect fit for a family area. It might not be your cup of tea, which is fine.

OK, first of all, referring to "Fans" is not the same as a racial slur, let's be very clear here. And I'm a "fan" too, believe it or not, so it isn't an insult.

The rides in this TSL will be different, but those renderings you mention make it quite clear this will be very similar to the lands we have seen, with the same poor sense of scale and "decoration" over theming.

And the whole idea of Disney parks is that you shouldn't have "kids" and "adult" rides - the artistry of the ride should appeal to everyone. This is a slight problem with ToT (which I love) and its ilk, but is being brought into sharp relief here. No Disney park needs a "kiddie land." They need lands with rides that appeal to everyone. You know what could have appealed to kids just as much as a bare coaster? Some well made dark rides. Saying "it's for kids" doesn't excuse the lack of quality, it highlights problems with the current management philosophy.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Because only snobbish theme park fans care enough. If the experience fun I could care less if the track is exposed. Frankly, I never saw Disney as superior with their coasters because they were enclosed. Honestly, all of the WDW coaster suck when compared to the others in Orlando, the only reason they're hailed as God's gift is because its DISNEY.

They're hailed because of the theming - rides like BTM offer an experience you don't get at other parks (well, most other parks). The point is not thrills - if you want that, you're better suited going to Cedar Point.

 

[LithiumBill]

OK, first of all, referring to "Fans" is not the same as a racial slur, let's be very clear here. And I'm a "fan" too, believe it or not, so it isn't an insult.

The rides in this TSL will be different, but those renderings you mention make it quite clear this will be very similar to the lands we have seen, with the same poor sense of scale and "decoration" over theming.

And the whole idea of Disney parks is that you shouldn't have "kids" and "adult" rides - the artistry of the ride should appeal to everyone. This is a slight problem with ToT (which I love) and its ilk, but is being brought into sharp relief here. No Disney park needs a "kiddie land." They need lands with rides that appeal to everyone. You know what could have appealed to kids just as much as a bare coaster? Some well made dark rides. Saying "it's for kids" doesn't excuse the lack of quality, it highlights problems with the current management philosophy.

Not going to debate to debate, you are set in your mindset. You are lumping all fans into your idea of FAN. I've see walk thrus and maps of the other TSLs, they are not the same... My view. Not yours. I never called it a kiddie land, you did. Its family friendly, rides for all. I never said they should build play lands for kids - The train in Storybook Circus, or the waiting area for Dumbo are both snore fests that I thought were dumb(o).

You missed my point, in that some people complain, to complain. As much as others spread pixie dust no matter what. the loudest voices are usually the ones that have the narrowest views.

Be free, spread the word. Naked coasters should be covered up! Disney is G, Universal is PG-13!

 

[Casper Gutman]

Not going to debate to debate, you are set in your mindset. You are lumping all fans into your idea of FAN. I've see walk thrus and maps of the other TSLs, they are not the same... My view. Not yours. I never called it a kiddie land, you did. Its family friendly, rides for all. I never said they should build play lands for kids - The train in Storybook Circus, or the waiting area for Dumbo are both snore fests that I thought were dumb(o).

You missed my point, in that some people complain, to complain. As much as others spread pixie dust no matter what. the loudest voices are usually the ones that have the narrowest views.

Be free, spread the word. Naked coasters should be covered up! Disney is G, Universal is PG-13!

And you're set in your mindset. Huzzah. Except you're the one who jumped in to attack because someone criticized Disney. And you're still offering personal insults.

I have no idea why you rebel against the label "fan." I'm a fan, something I said in the last post which you ignored.

EDIT: Actually, I just reread the last couple pages. The derogatory "fan" stuff came from Penguin - if your complaint is really about lumping people into the term, your argument is with him. You jumped on me before the word ever came up. This is all incoherent.

 

[LithiumBill]

I did not jump on anyone... Not all fans are alike.

 

[Casper Gutman]

I did not jump on anyone... Not all fans are alike.

Again... yes, you did. The fan stuff came up later, mostly from Penguin (and you applauded it), and you retroactively and nonsensically made it the basis for your attacks. You can read back over the last two pages if you'd like.

Now, enough of this stuff. To actually discuss the land, I'd be interested in knowing in what key ways you feel this TSL will differ from earlier versions.

 

[Fox&Hound]

Why does this thread feel like I am trapped in the backseat while Mom and Dad fight on a long car trip?!?!

Ughhhhh, I love discussions but some people just argue for the sake of arguing....

 

[MisterPenguin]

Again... yes, you did. The fan stuff came up later, mostly from Penguin (and you applauded it), and you retroactively and nonsensically made it the basis for your attacks. You can read back over the last two pages if you'd like.

Nice quibble with "mostly." The fact is you used it first to characterize "WDW fans" and what they expect.

My point is you can't make that generalization because WDW fans have differing and conflicting wants. You called that basic fact of life a straw man argument.

Here's you using 'fans' first...

It's an exposed coaster - something WDW fans have always made a point of praising WDW for not having - with an uninteresting theme crammed on after the fact. Theme did not dictate ride, budget dictated ride dictated theme.

In the end, there's going to be no mob with pitchforks rallying against exposed beams on a Slinky Dog Toy Coaster.

 

[Casper Gutman]

Nice quibble with "mostly." The fact is you used it first to characterize "WDW fans" and what they expect.

My point is you can't make that generalization because WDW fans have differing and conflicting wants. You called that basic fact of life a straw man argument.

Here's you using 'fans' first...



In the end, there's going to be no mob with pitchforks rallying against exposed beams on a Slinky Dog Toy Coaster.

OK... this whole thing is silly. The phrase is completely innocuous. I basically said "people like hats," to which you responded with a list of straw men about "people" ("Some people like cheese but others like milk but not cheese and thus are hypocrites") and Lithium got upset by being lumped into the category of "people" that didn't include him if he didn't share the stated opinion. It was silly.

Let me clarify - "many WDW fans, but not all, and you are not included in this group of fans if you disagree with the statement, have always made a point..." I didn't write that, because I don't need to if we are having an intellectually honest discussion.

You didn't attack because of that. You attacked because you dislike criticism of WDW and, in particular, you dislike my criticism. You've done this before. Next time, just take issue with the actual subject I'm discussing. Let's try it.

Do you feel TSL will be a meaningful addition to MGM that will go some way to fixing its problems? Do you feel the inclusion of a bare coaster is in line with the tradition of Disney attractions?

 

[MisterPenguin]

OK... this whole thing is silly. The phrase is completely innocuous. I basically said "people like hats," to which you responded with a list of straw men about "people" ("Some people like cheese but others like milk but not cheese and thus are hypocrites") and Lithium got upset by being lumped into the category of "people" that didn't include him if he didn't share the stated opinion. It was silly.

Let me clarify - "many WDW fans, but not all, and you are not included in this group of fans if you disagree with the statement, have always made a point..." I didn't write that, because I don't need to if we are having an intellectually honest discussion.

You didn't attack because of that. You attacked because you dislike criticism of WDW and, in particular, you dislike my criticism. You've done this before. Next time, just take issue with the actual subject I'm discussing. Let's try it.

Do you feel TSL will be a meaningful addition to MGM that will go some way to fixing its problems? Do you feel the inclusion of a bare coaster is in line with the tradition of Disney attractions?

The bare coaster in this context doesn't bother me.

 

[Casper Gutman]

The bare coaster in this context doesn't bother me.

I've been wondering if the bare coaster would bother me if the other ride was a dark ride and not a flat ride. I think it still might have - one or two quick indoor elements could have made a world of difference.

EDIT: By the way, if MGM's TSL corrects the scale issues from the other parks and actually carries out the "backyard" theme in a coherent and comprehensive manner I'll - well, I still probably won't like it, but I'll admit I was wrong about the theming.

 

[Goofyque']

I like hats.

 

[LithiumBill]

Nice quibble with "mostly." The fact is you used it first to characterize "WDW fans" and what they expect.

My point is you can't make that generalization because WDW fans have differing and conflicting wants. You called that basic fact of life a straw man argument.

Here's you using 'fans' first...



In the end, there's going to be no mob with pitchforks rallying against exposed beams on a Slinky Dog Toy Coaster.

This.

 

[RSoxNo1]

The bare coaster in this context doesn't bother me.

I think "this context" bothers me. As a land, oversized has never looked as good as any natural landscape or unique architecture.

 

[Kman101]

So this is a pretty big collection of strawmen. To take on a few - I've seen quite a few people get upset at the Barnstormer, a cheap, poorly thought out addition, and the Magic Carpets. You've seen these people too.

It is not intellectually dishonest at all to accept both basic and advanced AAs when both are used well in constructing amusing, well-built scenes. The point, again, is to craft a pleasing whole using appropriate ride elements. Even Screenzzzz, when carefully integrated and not supplanting all other elements, can be useful tools. This particular complaint is utter nonsense.

I've never been a huge fan of Figment, but saying he doesn't fit into the "edutainment" theme is absurd. "Edutainment" is meant to be educational entertainment - it can consist of things like Donald Duck in Mathland ("What's that duck doing in my educational short???"). You seem to have confused "edutainment" with "dry documentary presentation," weird.

You're gonna defend Disney no matter what. That's fine, it's a perspective. But I am amazed by the drive to defend TSL, a truly pathetic tribute to WDW's cost cutting and, apparently, "fans" low expectations.

And you know what really gets me? This whole post comes from a mindset that the fans have somehow FAILED WDW, that they owed WDW something in the first place. That's a horribly distorted way of thinking about any fandom or any corporation. The fans owe WDW absolutely nothing - not loyalty, not praise, not even consistency, nothing.

You not liking it doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. The idea is to go around the backyard so why would it be indoors? You find it uninteresting and that's fine. You keep bringing this up. We don't need to keep having the same debate. The land is coming and this is what we're getting. Would you dislike the coaster no matter what IP was attached? Why is being in the backyard such a hard concept for people to get behind? Sure this land isn't as impressive as rock work but I'd like some variety.

 

[LithiumBill]

TSL is a much needed expansion to the Studios. This plot fulfills the need for a less overwhelming (for lack of better word) theme, like SWGE will be. Andy's backyard is a bit more welcoming to the younger family demo, and will also include three rides that the entire family can enjoy together. The alien spinners are akin to the Mater ride, which is really a fun ride that is a surprise to most who ride it the first time. The coaster is an entry level coaster, one step above the mine train. And Midway Mania is still a huge draw. The backyard feel seems to be more inclusive than the other parks versions, as they are carrying it through with a fence and more varied levels of lanscaping, it's not just flat. The coaster is not short, its takes up a great length of the land, and uses technology similar to California Screaming for two launches - they are not going off the rack with the ride. The coaster being exposed track, is part of the theme.

In short, they needed a family friendly land to even out the other attractions while the Mickey Ride is being built. You cannot just give the younger families shows to keep them happy.

 

[Casper Gutman]

You not liking it doesn't mean the rest of us shouldn't. The idea is to go around the backyard so why would it be indoors? You find it uninteresting and that's fine. You keep bringing this up. We don't need to keep having the same debate.

Everyone is free to like it or not, as they chose. I am surprised by the reaction because of previous reactions to the same land in other parks.

 

[Kman101]

Everyone is free to like it or not, as they chose. I am surprised by the reaction because of previous reactions to the same land in other parks.

Those have pathetic rides. The rides we're getting are much improved. They won't be for everyone. I've left myself open to seeing the finished land and whether I'll be immersed or not but for me the coaster, in this case, doesn't bother me. If they built an outdoor coaster with no theming anywhere else ala six flags and universal no i wouldn't like it at a Disney park. But in the context of zooming around Andys backyard, I'm good with it. You may even like it and find it fun.