Toy Story 4 SPOILER Discussion

[Tony Perkis]

Are you trolling at this point, or are you really this involved? Cause it is not that serious my dude.

No, I am not trolling. Posters in this thread have previously been involved in conversations whining about films empowering women at the expense of the male characters, and they’re doing it again.

Whether you believe, agree, or disagree with it is irrelevant to me.

 

[General Mayhem]

No, I am not trolling. Posters in this thread have previously been involved in conversations whining about films empowering women at the expense of the male characters, and they’re doing it again.

Whether you believe, agree, or disagree with it is irrelevant to me.

So you're a white knight for fictional characters?

 

[Tony Perkis]

So you're a white knight for fictional characters?

I’m not white knighting anything, and that’s a lazy retort, by the way.

If it truly wanted to go full SJW, I’d mention something ridiculous like “why was the focus of the story of Ralph’s inability to grow in WIR2 instead of Penelope’s personal growth”. That’d be a bad take, not because of the latter, but because that film’s primary story had a different objective.

TS4, for any coherent viewer, never had a male vs. female objective. Bo Peep was never meant to represent a Mary Sue characterization. It was supposed to be display a change in character due to the fact that she has lived in a childless existence post-Andy and Molly and had to make a major adjustment. She’s knows the unsheltered world that Woody doesn’t. That’s why she’s a stronger character in this new setting. That’s solid writing. That makes sense for her character. And it’s important for Woody’s character to see that reality. The fact that it was a female character who displayed this is largely irrelevant to the main themes of the film.

The moment anybody equates this as pro-feminism, anti-male rhetoric, it’s easy to see where their heads are at. And they are likely oblivious to it.

 

[General Mayhem]

I’m not white knighting anything, and that’s a lazy retort, by the way.

If it truly wanted to go full SJW, I’d mention something ridiculous like “why was the focus of the story of Ralph’s inability to grow in WIR2 instead of Penelope’s personal growth”. That’d be a bad take, not because of the latter, but because that film’s primary story had a different objective.

TS4, for any coherent viewer, never had a male vs. female objective. Bo Peep was never meant to represent a Mary Sue characterization. It was supposed to be display a change in character due to the fact that she has lived in a childless existence post-Andy and Molly and had to make a major adjustment. She’s knows the unsheltered world that Woody doesn’t. That’s why she’s a stronger character in this new setting. That’s solid writing. That makes sense for her character. And it’s important for Woody’s character to see that reality. The fact that it was a female character who displayed this is largely irrelevant to the main themes of the film.

The moment anybody equates this as pro-feminism, anti-male rhetoric, it’s easy to see where their heads are at. And they are likely oblivious to it.

Well there is a lot of 3rd wave feminism and political garbage being shoved into everyone's faces through media right now. People are growing tired of it and it's not surprising to see people call it out when they see it in media. Whether that message or correlation is intentional or not it's not hard to see why people are put off by it.

 

[Tony Perkis]

Well there is a lot of 3rd wave feminism and political garbage being shoved into everyone's faces through media right now. People are growing tired of it and it's not surprising to see people call it out when they see it in media. Whether that message or correlation is intentional or not it's not hard to see why people are put off by it.

So let me ask: why was the fact that a female character was stronger in her current environment than the male character, with no context of her world, so offensive to you and others?

The film actually did a great job at world building and making it clear she was the best source of information for how to operate in that world. The screenplay made that a logical conclusion to accept. Woody was never demeaned, on a fundamental level, simply because he was a male character. A female character was a stronger influence in that scenario, for reasons well established within the film.

Why was the fact that Woody played second fiddle to a female character in several scenes so concerning for you and others?

 

[Amidala]

3. Also, and please do not hate me on this, but while I love me some strong women and female empowerment, I hate when it is at the expense of men or even male characters in a movie. Especially ones seen by little kids. Watch the movie again- how many times does Woody save Bo Peep? None. She helps him when he is falling, she saves his from the dolls at the end, she helps him on to high shelves, she comes up with the plan and even ridicules Woody's plan with Duke Kaboom. Who saves the day in the RV? Jessie with the nail in the tire. And at the end, who becomes sherriff- Jessie?

I mean...this is kind of an absurd complaint, and this coming from someone who's been openly critical of this movie. A) Bo Peep is familiar with the antique shop AND the carnival, whereas Woody is new to the area. B) Bo Peep has multiple YEARS of experience operating independently as a "lost toy." Woody has had a handful of adventures beyond his owners' houses, each lasting a handful of days at MOST and C) You had three Toy Story movies focused almost exclusively on male characters. Even in Toy Story 2 (a movie where Buzz's arc was a search and rescue with some thinly veiled Star Wars jokes thrown in, while Jessie's arc was actually emotionally resonant, not to mention relevant to the main story) she received less screen-time. If it's honestly that upsetting for you to watch even one movie in a four movie franchise spotlight a female character...I don't really know how to help you?

Yeah, Ninja Bo Peep, truly what the world needs now . If she were a Jedi she'd learn the Force in twenty seconds flat because I AM WOMAN blah blah blah. Yep that was a turnoff to me right away, and the things I've heard about the film since has led me to cancel my plans to see it.

Right, but we're all fine with a farmer from a desert planet destroying the Death Star by making an impossible shot that no trained pilots could make...Gotcha.

The film actually did a great job at world building and making it clear she was the best source of information for how to operate in that world. The screenplay made that a logical conclusion to accept. Woody was never demeaned, on a fundamental level, simply because he was a male character. A female character was a stronger influence in that scenario, for reasons well established within the film.

Exactly. There were plenty of writing decisions that really hurt this movie, but Bo Peep existing and doing things onscreen was not one of them. And what a silly thing to take offense to.

 

[Magenta Panther]

Right, but we're all fine with a farmer from a desert planet destroying the Death Star by making an impossible shot that no trained pilots could make...Gotcha.

Yeah, I can see your point, except that Luke had this thing going for him...what was it again? Oh yeah, THE FORCE.

 

[Magenta Panther]

You’ve complained about Jasmine as a strong female character in the Aladdin remake, Rey in Star Wars, and created a thread in the politics sub complaining about “woke” Dumbo because they got rid of the Jim Crow crows, and I can’t believe I actually had to type that last one out.

At some point, it’s clear you just don’t like females in leading roles overshadowing their male counterparts.

I admire strong women characters as long as they've earned my admiration, not just because they're women characters. I adore Princess Leia, for example. She told off her captor and underwent horrific torture and still emerged fighting. She won my heart forever. And I like Jasmine in the original Aladdin - restless, a little naïve, but determined to marry for love. And I like Belle - intelligent, a dreamer, but plenty strong enough to stand up to the Beast. What I DON'T like are ridiculous women characters who can do what they do just because they're women - like Elizabeth Swann, pampered governor's daughter who is also somehow a master swordsman and expert ship's captain 'cause ROAR! And frankly live-action Jasmine seemed to be of the same type. Maybe she comes off better in the film; perhaps I'm judging too harshly. I'll give you that. Maybe I'll rent the flick when it's available. But the CGI I'm seeing in the clips is deplorable IMO. That's a turnoff too.

As for Rey, COME ON. She learned the Force much faster than Luke, and there's only one reason: ROAR! Spare me.

As for the Crows, well, FWIW, Whoopie Goldberg thinks Song of the South should be re-released too, and that implies that she has no real issues with the Crows. Take it up with her.

And bear in mind that I've recently advocated that the Pirates franchise be rebooted with the newly-created Redd character as lead. Because there really were lady pirates, so the premise is believable. And I've also advocated that she be Jack Sparrow's mentor. Silly sexist me, what was I thinking?

 

[General Mayhem]

As a gay man who adores princesses and female characters I absolutely hate what Disney has done with female leads in the last 3-4 years. Belle from the new Beauty and the Beast was turned into a life coach for the Beast instead of being her own person like she was in the original. Not to mention she is bogged down with pointless feminist scenes that don't add up to anything. Rey is the literal definition of a Mary Sue with not a single inch of character development because she's already great at everything. Jasmine in Aladdin (even though I never cared for the original) has become nothing more than a political feminist mascot. Captain Marvel is an extremely polarizing character due to her lack of personality and low key political stances. Also if they hadn't cut that assault scene you could consider her a psychopath and a villain. Vanellope in Ralph Breaks the Internet becomes a complete hypocrite by making the same decisions as Turbo in the first film. She decides to abandon everything she worked for, her responsibilities and her "family" in a matter of minutes because "she's bored". Most of these new versions of Female leads lack likable and relatable personalities due to this push for feminist agendas in film. In other words these characters are terrible, and the only reason people defend them is for political purposes.

 

[Amidala]

As for Rey, COME ON. She learned the Force much faster than Luke, and there's only one reason: ROAR! Spare me.

Did she, or are you projecting? How much time did Luke spend mastering the force in preparation for that one-in-a-million shot? At least Rey had already been scavenging for ship parts for years before piloting the Falcon, and mentioned having flown before; I would expect someone with that background to know her stuff, wouldn't you?

As for Elizabeth, you're omitting quite a bit of important context...she didn't automatically pick up a sword and become a pirate king, she was hardened by her experiences over the course of three movies. This is such a common cinema trope (person with a relatively ordinary life becomes an action girl/guy once the plot takes off) and that same brand of wish fulfillment never seems to be an issue when the character in question is a man. Elizabeth was a big deal for me and other girls my age growing up—and, again, I don't think a governor's daughter becoming a pirate is any more ludicrous than a farmer from a desert planet becoming a Jedi. Do women get to have fun too?

 

[General Mayhem]

Did she, or are you projecting? How much time did Luke spend mastering the force in preparation for that one-in-a-million shot? At least Rey had already been scavenging for ship parts for years before piloting the Falcon, and mentioned having flown before; I would expect someone with that background to know her stuff, wouldn't you?

As for Elizabeth, you're omitting quite a bit of important context...she didn't automatically pick up a sword and become a pirate king, she was hardened by her experiences over the course of three movies. This is such a common cinema trope (person with a relatively ordinary life becomes an action girl/guy once the plot takes off) and that same brand of wish fulfillment never seems to be an issue when the character in question is a man. Elizabeth was a big deal for me and other girls my age growing up—and, again, I don't think a governor's daughter becoming a pirate is any more ludicrous than a farmer from a desert planet becoming a Jedi. Do women get to have fun too?

I liked Elizabeth Swan, but Rey does not get any passes from me. How does an orphan with no mentors become a master at repairs/engineering, ship piloting, droid language fluency, sword fighting, general combat, gun firing, magic wielding, and social skills? Explain.

 

[Magenta Panther]

Did she, or are you projecting? How much time did Luke spend mastering the force in preparation for that one-in-a-million shot? At least Rey had already been scavenging for ship parts for years before piloting the Falcon, and mentioned having flown before; I would expect someone with that background to know her stuff, wouldn't you?

As for Elizabeth, you're omitting quite a bit of important context...she didn't automatically pick up a sword and become a pirate king, she was hardened by her experiences over the course of three movies. This is such a common cinema trope (person with a relatively ordinary life becomes an action girl/guy once the plot takes off) and that same brand of wish fulfillment never seems to be an issue when the character in question is a man. Elizabeth was a big deal for me and other girls my age growing up—and, again, I don't think a governor's daughter becoming a pirate is any more ludicrous than a farmer from a desert planet becoming a Jedi. Do women get to have fun too?

Yeah, but see, Liz picked up a sword and fought with it at the end of the very first Pirates (the scene in the Cortes treasure cave), and was somehow an expert!!! ROAR! So lame and pandering and unconvincing. If the film had at least established that her father had indulged her and allowed her to have fencing lessons or something, then yeah, MAYBE her skill would have been plausible, but it wasn't, and so it isn't.

And Luke had flown around his home planet too, as I recall, and when shown the Death Star target, said "I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters." Not that it made him a natural for the Force, and that applies to Rey too. But it does make his ability to shoot down the Death Star more plausible than what you asserted.

BUT if Lizzy's sudden skills without teaching inspired you, hey, more power to you. But I favor believable heroines over tokens, FWIW.

 

[mf1972]

the only minor issue i can say i had with the movie was i thought gabby gabby was kind of weak as the villain. i’m actually surprised she got a happy ending. hardly any villains do. i’d say lotso was my favorite villain in the series.
i enjoyed it, but felt it’s the weakest out of the 4. maybe it just needs another viewing in the future.

 

[Amidala]

Yeah, but see, Liz picked up a sword and fought with it at the end of the very first Pirates (the scene in the Cortes treasure cave), and was somehow an expert!!! ROAR! So lame and pandering and unconvincing. If the film had at least established that her father had indulged her and allowed her to have fencing lessons or something, then yeah, MAYBE her skill would have been plausible, but it wasn't, and so it isn't.

And Luke had flown around his home planet too, as I recall, and when shown the Death Star target, said "I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back home. They're not much bigger than two meters." Not that it made him a natural for the Force, and that applies to Rey too. But it does make his ability to shoot down the Death Star more plausible than what you asserted.

BUT if Lizzy's sudden skills without teaching inspired you, hey, more power to you. But I favor believable heroines over tokens, FWIW.

But you've just reinforced my point...I remember that line just fine, but Luke offhandedly mentioning that he used to play target practice doesn't make him a marksmen on the level of a trained pilot; it doesn't need to. We accept that Luke is "special" because this is a wish fulfillment fantasy story, and it's not necessary for us to delve any deeper than that. We can sit here and split hairs about which character was better trained prior to using the force or flying a ship, but that's never been the point of Star Wars. The audience is expected to suspend disbelief, and never seemed to have trouble doing so when it came to Luke. And yet suddenly, with Rey, it's all people can talk about.

If you consider Rey a "token" but not Luke, I guess that's your business, but I won't pretend it makes sense to me. To wrap back around to the topic of this thread, it's a little mind boggling that Bo is now getting called a "Mary Sue" for being an Action Girl after spending years fending for herself, and becoming familiar with the environment (an environment which is completely foreign to Woody). Seems like people will always find some reason to discount these characters, and to that I'll just say in a more general sense...it's okay for a female character to just not be to your tastes. Not everything is a personal attack.

 

[Magenta Panther]

But you've just reinforced my point...I remember that line just fine, but Luke offhandedly mentioning that he used to play target practice doesn't make him a marksmen on the level of a trained pilot; it doesn't need to. We accept that Luke is "special" because this is a wish fulfillment fantasy story, and it's not necessary for us to delve any deeper than that. We can sit here and split hairs about which character was better trained prior to using the force or flying a ship, but that's never been the point of Star Wars. The audience is expected to suspend disbelief, and never seemed to have trouble doing so when it came to Luke. And yet suddenly, with Rey, it's all people can talk about.

If you consider Rey a "token" but not Luke, I guess that's your business, but I won't pretend it makes sense to me. To wrap back around to the topic of this thread, it's a little mind boggling that Bo is now getting called a "Mary Sue" for being an Action Girl after spending years fending for herself, and becoming familiar with the environment (an environment which is completely foreign to Woody). Seems like people will always find some reason to discount these characters, and to that I'll just say in a more general sense...it's okay for a female character to just not be to your tastes. Not everything is a personal attack.

Who says I'm taking all this as a personal attack? I care very little about new Star Wars characters. Not a one of them has the impact, personality, charisma and iconic stature of Han, Luke, and Leia. Actually, I suspect that Lucas and Company's inability to create new SW characters as rich as the aforementioned is the reason we got Ma-Rey Sue. Hey, she's a cipher, but who cares because WOKE! So hey, identify, all you SJWs! Yeah, sorry, but to me she's not an equivalent for an interesting character I'd root for and care about. She could get frozen in carbonite and I wouldn't shed a tear. Obviously, your mileage varies. And as for Luke's marksmanship during the battle of the Death Star, I'd say his experience blasting womp rats had to have given him something of an edge over the other pilots, or why did the script have him mention it at all? JMHO.

 

[NOSaintsFan09]

Overall the movie to me was great, but sad. Whereas I left TS3 sad, but happy, I just left TS4 sad. Even though it had a happy ending for all the toys. But that's me being selfish. I understand the "change" and "letting go" life lesson the movie was trying to instill.

I only wish the ending was a bit longer. The toys accepting Woody leaving seemed rushed. The fact they didn't even realize Bo Peep was around till the final 3 minutes and just happily let Woody leave them to be with her without fully knowing the events that had just transpired is my only nitpick.

 

[KBLovedDisney]

I do have to admit that I found the movie slightly underwhelming.

There. I said it.

 

[MisterPenguin]

I do have to admit that I found the movie slightly underwhelming.

There. I said it.

The cat in TS4 looked more realistic.