JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
They are closing Bugs Life
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Tom Sawyer Island
- Thread starter jkl2000
- Start date
nickys
Premium Member
MK has caves too!
As far as I recall there are two caves at the landing end of the island and the escape tunnel from the Fort back to somewhere at the landing end - I just can’t recall where you come out.
And there are a myriad of paths to explore, and a lookout area at the top of the hill.
It’s the area between there and the Fort that could do with some embellishment perhaps.
JoeCamel
Well-Known Member
The fort tunnel lets out at the far end and you walk back between the fort and the water to the barrel bridge I think. I could google but it's Sunday morning....
DW Aficionado
Active Member
TOLD Y'ALL SO !!!
DW Aficionado
Active Member
When Disney started using Magic Bands, one of its purposes was to track where each guest is, where they go, their daily activities. What they found was that Tom Sawyer Island and the River Boat just were not attracting enough people. They view it as an area that needs improvement. To Disney it is strictly data.
If it was strictly data Splash Mountain wouldn't have been closed down nor would they have changed the red head in Pirates.
I fail to see how location data can be used as an argument for Keeping the redhead scene as was.
DW Aficionado
Active Member
I think the park is at capacity as it is. almost impossible to watch fireworks anymore. they need to build another park
Disney4family
Well-Known Member
Walt Disney1955
Well-Known Member
This is a bad, bad decision. I don't know if anything epitomizes Frontierland more than the boat. One of the unique things about MK was having a Riverboat in the actual park. It had a charm to it. They have some bozos working at head office in Disney more and more these days. It is about a slower pace when you did those attractions.
So here is my question, does Disneyland still keep the Island and the Mark Twain Riverboat or is this lousy idea just reserved for Florida?
So here is my question, does Disneyland still keep the Island and the Mark Twain Riverboat or is this lousy idea just reserved for Florida?
Disney4family
Well-Known Member
Wouldn’t Disneyland have to keep theirs since that’s where they do Fantasmic? They even use the same boat, right?
JMcMahonEsq
Well-Known Member
Wait the thing that epitomizes Frontierland is something that most people don’t use? I mean I don’t know when that last time you have been there, but in our last 10 trips, I don’t remember a single time when the riverboat wasn’t a walk on. People are just not using it, and I bet that both my acedotal experiences and all of the data driven metrics available to WDW say the same thing
Long time listener, first time caller. I'm a business consultant by day, so I'm going to approach this from that perspective. I feel like I've read many, many thoughts on this but I hope to offer a different perspective. The closure of rivers of America is a problematic business decision for many reasons, but I think many people are focusing on the wrong reasons.
The "meta" issue is this -- it's changing what makes Magic Kingdom special. They are, to borrow a phrase, throwing out the baby with the bath water. This isn't about losing a poorly attended "attraction" -- Tom Sawyer's Island, but about losing the peaceful / majestic Frontierland setting.
Epic Universe is Universal's Magic Kingdom (they actually tell you this up front, Epic = Magic, Universe = Kingdom), and Disney's response is, in a word, panicked. In a rush to respond, they've forgotten a key thing. In business consulting, the first step is to determine the "product". Magic Kingdom's product, without a doubt, is nostalgia. Disney has rightfully treaded very carefully over the years not to overstep and make too many drastic changes. There are many examples of this.
.. but, sadly, they've done the opposite here. Frontierland, in general, is such a large component of Magic Kingdom's nostalgia-inducing "product", both literally (i.e., its size) and figuratively. Part of the reason for many people's repeat trips is reliving moments that took place in locations where the overall environment is larger than the sum of its parts (e.g., Tom Sawyer's Island). It's what appears in the background of someone's fondest family pictures. Frontierland is a perfect example of that.
In the past 2 years, keep in mind the following changes to Frontierland. Forget for a second whether you agree with the specific change or not, my intent is to point out the sheer volume of actual or just-announced changes to the land:
1. Closure of Splash / replacement with Tiana's
2. Closure of Frontierland Shooting Gallery
3. Closure of Country Bears / replacement with new Country Bears
4. Closure of Tom Sawyer's Island
5. Closure of Liberty Belle steamboats
I'm not even including rumored changes (e.g., re-theming of Peco Bill's), these are simply changes that have already been carried out or announced, relatively speaking, at the same period of time.
At some point, a fairly large, "left side" of the park is so drastically different to what someone remembers growing up that it isn't the same thing. And that creates an opportunity I don't think they want.
Once you've lost the nostalgia-bait, for lack of better word, then you've done the exact opposite from what you think you've done. You've not only NOT prevented someone from going to the theme park down I-4, you've actively encouraged them to do so especially if they can save a penny. And then, it allows a whole new nostalgia cycle to begin with their children and their children's children looking to recreate those same memories in the same environment.
It's one thing to make small changes over time to an entire land (which is, in fact, necessary), but it's another thing entirely to do this all in the span of 2 or 3 years. There's a risk that the case of "New Frontierland" may be as ubiquitous tomorrow as a lesson in MBA classrooms as the case of "New Coke" is today.
The "meta" issue is this -- it's changing what makes Magic Kingdom special. They are, to borrow a phrase, throwing out the baby with the bath water. This isn't about losing a poorly attended "attraction" -- Tom Sawyer's Island, but about losing the peaceful / majestic Frontierland setting.
Epic Universe is Universal's Magic Kingdom (they actually tell you this up front, Epic = Magic, Universe = Kingdom), and Disney's response is, in a word, panicked. In a rush to respond, they've forgotten a key thing. In business consulting, the first step is to determine the "product". Magic Kingdom's product, without a doubt, is nostalgia. Disney has rightfully treaded very carefully over the years not to overstep and make too many drastic changes. There are many examples of this.
.. but, sadly, they've done the opposite here. Frontierland, in general, is such a large component of Magic Kingdom's nostalgia-inducing "product", both literally (i.e., its size) and figuratively. Part of the reason for many people's repeat trips is reliving moments that took place in locations where the overall environment is larger than the sum of its parts (e.g., Tom Sawyer's Island). It's what appears in the background of someone's fondest family pictures. Frontierland is a perfect example of that.
In the past 2 years, keep in mind the following changes to Frontierland. Forget for a second whether you agree with the specific change or not, my intent is to point out the sheer volume of actual or just-announced changes to the land:
1. Closure of Splash / replacement with Tiana's
2. Closure of Frontierland Shooting Gallery
3. Closure of Country Bears / replacement with new Country Bears
4. Closure of Tom Sawyer's Island
5. Closure of Liberty Belle steamboats
I'm not even including rumored changes (e.g., re-theming of Peco Bill's), these are simply changes that have already been carried out or announced, relatively speaking, at the same period of time.
At some point, a fairly large, "left side" of the park is so drastically different to what someone remembers growing up that it isn't the same thing. And that creates an opportunity I don't think they want.
Once you've lost the nostalgia-bait, for lack of better word, then you've done the exact opposite from what you think you've done. You've not only NOT prevented someone from going to the theme park down I-4, you've actively encouraged them to do so especially if they can save a penny. And then, it allows a whole new nostalgia cycle to begin with their children and their children's children looking to recreate those same memories in the same environment.
It's one thing to make small changes over time to an entire land (which is, in fact, necessary), but it's another thing entirely to do this all in the span of 2 or 3 years. There's a risk that the case of "New Frontierland" may be as ubiquitous tomorrow as a lesson in MBA classrooms as the case of "New Coke" is today.
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DisneyHead123
Well-Known Member
I agree with most of this, with one caveat. I actually don’t think the nitty gritty specifics of how “Disney nostalgia” is represented matters all that much to a lot of people. I think to people with a great visual memory for details, sure. But I think most people “recognize” a place predominantly by vibe, by emotional undertone. If MK swapped out one quaint, charming, Americana scene with another quaint, charming Americana scene, I don’t know that it would change the nostalgia vibes all that much. It’s going from the beautiful backdrop of a scenic river with an ornate riverboat to a cartoon car land that is jarring. And good point about Frontierland being so much more than the sum of its parts!
I haven’t ruled out the idea that they’ll actually pull this off. It’s possible. Maybe they turn the Cars trails into a rustic Americana dreamscape that blends seamlessly with the surrounding environment. Trying not to prejudge. If it ends up looking like they ripped out Frontierland to stick in the emotional equivalent of Bugs Bunny Boomtown, I will be so disappointed though. If I wanted Six Flags theming I would pay Six Flags prices.
Walt Disney1955
Well-Known Member
Traditionally when they make these sorts of announcements the idea is that they go through with it. Splash Mountain closing was something no one was asking for and it was and still is wildly unpopular and they put a less charming and much inferior ride in there. The horn of the boat is the same sort of noise that you associate with the horn on the train going around the railroad. It is supposed to take you back to an different era, one that none of us were alive for, and that is sort of the point. Modern Disney never gets it.
I am afraid to ask, but I did anyway. As if Magic Kingdom can get less inferior than Disneyland as it is, this will make it worse. But I would at least hope Disneyland keeps theirs.
I love Tom Sawyer's Island. We do it. Also do the Liberty Belle Riverboat. Find me something unique like that anywhere else. It is part of the backdrop of Frontierland. Honestly, has Disney never learned how they re-imagine things and make it worse? Tiki Birds for example? How long before they finally went back to the original show? In this case ripping out the island and replacing the Riverboat and adding a Carsland is pretty permanent. What on earth does a talking car have to do with the old Frontier? And I say this loving the way they did Carsland at DCA.
DisneyHead123
Well-Known Member
I'm about 65% confident they'll go through with it (some uncertainty because it was a last minute decision, Frontierland is... maybe... iconic, and I get the impression things are shifting all over the place at Disney right now).
My general point, though, was that swapping out something with a similar vibe is not always the end of the world. I love colonial Williamsburg, but they could probably replace half the buildings with other, similarly colonial buildings, and I might not even notice. If they replaced them with Burger King's though? Yes, that I would notice. I visited Hawaii once and found it absolutely magical. If I went back and some prankster moved all the palm trees around and put rocky formations in different places and changed the arc of the shoreline, I would literally have no idea. Like none. I'm sure some people who are engineers and have an amazing eye for detail would, but I would not. If they replaced them with conifer trees and buffalo, however, I would most certainly notice.
To be fair, maybe that argument doesn't apply to the riverboat. If something is a monument people will certainly notice. You couldn't replace the Statue of Liberty with something else that said "classic NYC", of course. But if it's more backdrop for people, yeah, I think you can change things quite a bit without ruining the overall effect.
It is maybe possible, I guess, that they could pull off a Cars landscape that positively exudes something like "rustic American charm", if not "frontier". I can't say I'm at all confident that will happen, but I don't put it in the category of literally impossible. Trying not to prejudge.
The poster claimed that Disney made decisions strictly based on data. It doesn't mean only location data, it would encompass all data... But if you want to go strictly by location data... Pirate never saw some massive drop off in popularity like Tom Sawyer Island... at WDW even when the rest of that area of the park was dead you would still have to wait in line at Pirates... so clearly people were avoiding the ride because of how it handled women on the ride.
bwr827
Well-Known Member
I’ve never tried the boat or the island. In December, assuming construction hasn’t started yet, I’m going to give them a go.
I don’t remember anything particularly peaceful or especially beautiful about that area from past visits. I’ll try to take extra note of those aspects.
So far, I’m just excited about seeing what they’ll build there. But maybe I’ll be persuaded to feel sad about it too.
I don’t remember anything particularly peaceful or especially beautiful about that area from past visits. I’ll try to take extra note of those aspects.
So far, I’m just excited about seeing what they’ll build there. But maybe I’ll be persuaded to feel sad about it too.