Time Racer Coming

X2CommNavISTC

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Not to mention, where are a lot of these guests staying at?

Right, hotels......oh look! Theres a giant pool outside filled with slides and all sorts of cool stuff, but its not as fun as playing in the water inside the theme parks...
 
Originally posted by Lee

4- As for nostalgia for attractions like WoM, Horizons, etc...
well, ya gotta give the people what they want. Disney's priority is, understandibly, to get as many butts into the park as possible. How do you do that? Give them the attractions they want. Horizons was a great attraction, but frankly it wasn't a huge hit with guests, only running seasonally towards the end. In short, few people were saying "Hey, let's go to Epcot and ride Horizons! Yippee!". Same with WoM. Great ride, but not a huge draw for guests. In that case, GM was a major force behind Test Track, an e-ticket that you can put on a billboard or a commercial and draw guests.

Then please explain why EPCOTS attendance declined after the introductioon of the fabulous Test Track. Could it be that EPCOT's Future World has lost all of its vision? Most definitely Yes!
 
Originally posted by Lee

And let's face it, how many kids are all that excited about going on a ride "for the whole family". It's not nearly as important for them as it is for the parents, and if the kid's ain't happy, the family won't visit the park.

Boy I guess PotC, HM, IaSW, and not to mention SE (the most ridden of any attractions at WDW!) must be mere phantoms of my imagination or at least my imagination 1.0! :D :lol: :D
 

Testtrack321

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by Lee
OK, I know this is a very touchy subject for some people, and I don't want to start any heated debate. Just a few points:

1- For the 1 millionth time..."Time Racers" is the proposed post-show for an updated "Spaceship Earth".

2- It is possible to incorporate a new type of ride in SE while preserving it's message. Just because they add new technology and a zippier ride system doesn't mean that the story will be lost. In fact, I have been told that WDI is planning to incorporate, or at least touch on, some of the original Ray Bradbury concepts for the ride. That sounds good to me.

3- There will never be a coaster in Spaceship Earth. Period.

4- As for nostalgia for attractions like WoM, Horizons, etc...
well, ya gotta give the people what they want. Disney's priority is, understandibly, to get as many butts into the park as possible. How do you do that? Give them the attractions they want. Horizons was a great attraction, but frankly it wasn't a huge hit with guests, only running seasonally towards the end. In short, few people were saying "Hey, let's go to Epcot and ride Horizons! Yippee!". Same with WoM. Great ride, but not a huge draw for guests. In that case, GM was a major force behind Test Track, an e-ticket that you can put on a billboard or a commercial and draw guests.
Do I agree with this school of thought....not always. But I do think that Test Track and Mission:Space are positive additions to the park. As will be Soarin. They draw guests, they are gently informative, and most importantly...they are fun.

5- As for kids, well, unfortunately there is not much at Epcot for them except for the Imagination pavillionand those stupid fountains that parents let their kids frolic in. (As long as I live I'll never understand that.) True, Horizons and WoM, and even SE were/are available for kids, but the problem is, kids who are tall enough would rather be on Test Track, and the ones too small are unable to grasp the message of the attractions. Like for instance, Universe of Energy. A parent might say "Great, a ride for the whole family!" while halfway through it the kids are asleep and dad's checking his watch. Disney at Epcot is looking for a type of attraction that will appeal to the broadest possible audience, and that seems to be the moderately thrilling, gently educational sort of ride.
And let's face it, how many kids are all that excited about going on a ride "for the whole family". It's not nearly as important for them as it is for the parents, and if the kid's ain't happy, the family won't visit the park.

Wow, sorry for the long-winded post. I'll shut up now. Please refrain from throwing tomatoes or anything at me.

You are my new friend. You have expressed all my feelings toward this topic. I agree totally. What's the purpose of an attraction that 'the whole family can enjoy together' if the families don't want to ride it!!??! Disney's park was for the whole family in terms of cleaness, quality, and great staff, not where every ride everyone can ride with no height restrictions!
 
Originally posted by Testtrack321
You are my new friend. You have expressed all my feelings toward this topic. I agree totally. What's the purpose of an attraction that 'the whole family can enjoy together' if the families don't want to ride it!!??! Disney's park was for the whole family in terms of cleaness, quality, and great staff, not where every ride everyone can ride with no height restrictions!

Have you ever read one of Walt's discussions on his visions of a theme park or heard one his discussions on this topic? :veryconfu
 

General Grizz

New Member
Originally posted by Lee
2- It is possible to incorporate a new type of ride in SE while preserving it's message. Just because they add new technology and a zippier ride system doesn't mean that the story will be lost. In fact, I have been told that WDI is planning to incorporate, or at least touch on, some of the original Ray Bradbury concepts for the ride. That sounds good to me.

It does! I would absolutely LOVE to see a new style Spaceship Earth. BUT...what I DON'T want to see is a loss of drama, music, full-quality sets, and Animatronics. If it's nearly all screens. . . then we've got major problems. Disney doesn't want to PAY for Animatronics. So why should I feel excited about EPCOT's new plans? Do I want to see another Test Track or Mission Space? No. I want to see another HORIZONS - another show with heart, full quality - and, yes. It can be appealing to guests with technology and breath-taking scenes. Wow. A 2005 quality "Horizons" - and when I say it, I only imply the strengths and quality of the show. That would redeem Disney for me!

Originally posted by Lee
4- As for nostalgia for attractions like WoM, Horizons, etc...
well, ya gotta give the people what they want.

That's a really ambitious statement. I mean, all of the teenagers I know would be blissful to have giant inverted coasters in every place at EPCOT, no matter what is destroyed.

And the thing is, there needs to be balance. Both Mission Space, Test Track, and the Journey into Imagination pavilions are major downgrades in quality, in heart, and in EPCOT theming. Although Mission Space is a great ride, how can it compare to the classic Disney humor, heart, full-quality, and message about Horizons, along with that sprinkle of education and "fun"?

No, Horizons wasn't the most popular attraction. I can say that it's one of the most beloved attractions of all time. But what does that mean to me?

I believe that means that EPCOT should start KEEP whatever quality pavilions they have now with the sets/Animatronics (hmm...that pretty much leaves SE and American Adventure left as far as top-notch goes). THEN with additional space, create the thrill rides. And no, no coasters with no themeing. I'm talking a Splash Mountain - Disneyesque, fitting, inspiring, and in-tune with EPCOT's message.

Test Track ALMOST got there. Problem is, it's simply focused on modern car manufactore. Okay. So let's say Test Track was built on an open field. Although I still wouldn't be appealed to it, that would have been a better situation. Why?

Because Test Track replaced one of the most in-tune, full quality attractions that Disney Imagineering had ever achieved. The World of Motion SPOKE Disney - Walt's touches could be found all over it. And more than anything else, it spoke EPCOT - education, quality - what, how many full sets/props and 188 animatroncs? Now THAT's a ride - and especially the trip into the future. If the attraction (ride) would be reopened now identically, there would be NOTHING outdated. And then, not to mention the TransCenter. "Like a Rock" is area music? What about the cartoon shows and Animatronic Bird and Robot? I mean, even the TransCenter was the most photographed spot at Disney! And how many people take photos there now?

Here's the attraction. Create a brand-new style EPCOT show - animatronics, songs (what are those?!), and meaning. Broaden the range of guests - add the latest technology, and it can be thrilling in itself. Perhaps have as a post-show, or side-show in order to use up Fast-Pass, a thrill ride. Say...Test Track pretty much how it is now.

The thing is, not only is EPCOT gradually losing its entire meaning (What the HECK does this place have to do with 'Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow'?) as well as its fundamental worth. Sure. More teenagers are having fun. But this is DISNEY. And DISNEY needs to be a bit more than just fun. Would it be fun to go to Universal for a week? Sure! That would be fun. But DISNEY has that strength, that dedication to meaning and foundation. And along with this degrading aspect as far as EPCOT goes, a park dedicated to humanity and progress (although it seems to be going downhill from that), is further losing its original fans. And that's me - a person who spends thousands of dollars on Disney a year. If this trend continues, with the meaning at EPCOT, and the classics from the Magic Kingdom changing, that could be considerably less.

Again, balance is the answer. If it were my choice in 1995, I would have closed World of Motion and redone it. But to a thrill ride narrowed down to automobiles? No. Rather, it would KEEP the message, but update the show to new heights to continue to educate guests and families - while ALSO offering maybe a thrill ride or two.

And as for the kids go. . . what about great shows like the original "Journey into Imagination" and "Kitchen Kabaret?" Not only were these kid shows - they were family shows. And imagine even these updated to new heights. That doesn't mean cutting the track in half. This doesn't mean creating card board cut outs. This doesn't mean creating black space. And this also doesn't mean cutting down Animatronics.

If EPCOT can keep with its original foundation - the only strength it can have - then I'll be happy. I don't want to see an attraction like Spaceship Earth close down because I don't want to see a repeat. If Disney could only assure it would keep the quality - and I guess meaning has been established - then I'd love for it to be brought on.
 

Lee

Adventurer
(Tosses away empty can of worms...)

How to start...how to start?
Ok.
I never meant to say that rides that the whole family can enjoy are a bad thing. PotC, HM, all of Fantasyland, are great. I love them. They are what the Magic Kingdom is all about. However, a new ride of that type will not draw a crowd in this day and age. Take for example Pooh at DL. Very similar in quality to, say, Snow White. Is it popular? Do people rush to ride it and tell their friends how great it was? Not at all. It fell flat. Why? It is another ride past flat scenery that tells a hard to follow story and is over in 3 minutes. Guests don't want new rides like that.
To get people (by which I mean your average family, not us Disney freaks) into the parks you have to offer them something new, something fun, and something fresh. Remember the impact of Splash? ToT? Indy at DL?

As for Epcot, whew....it's hard to get my logical, coherent thoughts out in a way that makes sense.
I'll give you World of Motion. It was a great ride that was easily updateable and would have lasted for a long time.
However, for the most part, education is on it's way out at Epcot.
The simple fact is, the majority of guests don't want to be educated at a theme park. They just want to have fun. That is where Test Track and Mission:Space succeed: They are great fun, while still delivering a gentle message aboout the technology of modern car building and the future of space flight. Sad is it may be, if you polled the average guest (again not one of "us") they would take TT and M:S over WoM and Horizons by a landslide. It's simply what people want.
The message of Epcot is going to have to change to keep up with the desires of theme park guests. That is why it is becoming the "discovery" park. No more visions of the distant future which never works out. Instead a park of fun rides with gentle messages that can appeal to the broadest demographics.

And before I stop babbling...a thought on Walt's vision of theme parks. He wanted a clean place where parents and children could laugh and play together. I don't see where that has been lost anywhere on Disney property. He never said every ride had to be Peter Pan. He came up with the Matterhorn, and Space Mountain for that matter. He knew how to appeal to everyone, and he knew how to change to meet the demands of the public. Just look at the difference in Tomorrowland at DL between 1955 and 1959.
 

Dayma

Well-Known Member
However, a new ride of that type will not draw a crowd in this day and age. Take for example Pooh at DL

Pooh at WDW is always jammed pack so I dont think that is an accurate statement. Of course so is Peter Pan...
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Very well-spoken, Lee. In fact, I would put money on if you took a poll of the 8500+ members here, a clear majority would take Mission: SPACE and Test Track over their predecessors. Thrill rides are clearly the things to build these days, as wdw has made quite clear as its intensions these past 10 years or more, a trend that shall continue.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Originally posted by blackride
Pooh at WDW is always jammed pack so I dont think that is an accurate statement. Of course so is Peter Pan...

Exactly.
Now, who is riding these two attractions?
Teens? Adults with no kids?
Nope. 75% or more of the riders on Pooh and Pan are parents with small children. Typical Fantasyland demographic.

If the same ride was in Epcot, would it bring in guests or inspire repeat visits? Doubtful.
 
Originally posted by Lee
(Tosses away empty can of worms...)

Take for example Pooh at DL. Very similar in quality to, say, Snow White. Is it popular? Do people rush to ride it and tell their friends how great it was? Not at all. It fell flat. Why? It is another ride past flat scenery that tells a hard to follow story and is over in 3 minutes. Guests don't want new rides like that.
To get people (by which I mean your average family, not us Disney freaks) into the parks you have to offer them something new, something fun, and something fresh. Remember the impact of Splash? ToT? Indy at DL?


First my girlfriend and I love these slow rides. Not every adult and/or teen love thrill rides (roller coasters/drops). I do love a mix, however, Disney as of late is going overboard with the thrill only movement. If you lose the good mix, then you lose non-thrill seeking anti-six flag amusement park types and families. This won't be good for either Disney and especially not for EPCOT. Let's face it Test Track has become very stale already and the times I've been there recently I can tell a serious decline in ridership. With Disney, you have to NOT ONLY offer them something fresh and new BUT YOU HAVE TO OFFER THEM SOMETHING CLASSIC AND IMAGINATIVE LIKE SPACESHIP EARTH. It's a way to connect generations. Take these out and you lose the families that introduce a new generation to the magic of Disney. Again not something good for either Disney or EPCOT.

Second, I can't speak for DL Pooh, but WDW Pooh is always jam packed. So, you DEFINITELY DON'T NEED JUST THRILL RIDES TO PACK THEM IN! My girlfriend and I love this ride. For adults it connects you to childhood and it is a thrill if you let your heart and imagination run with it. I visually see a lot of adults only and teens only riders on all of the Fantasyland rides, so Disney must have done something right with these types of rides and shouldn't abandom them all together.
 

niteobsrvr

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by thedisneyfan
First my girlfriend and I love these slow rides. Not every adult and/or teen love thrill rides (roller coasters/drops). I do love a mix, however, Disney as of late is going overboard with the thrill only movement. If you lose the good mix, then you lose non-thrill seeking anti-six flag amusement park types and families. This won't be good for either Disney and especially not for EPCOT. Let's face it Test Track has become very stale already and the times I've been there recently I can tell a serious decline in ridership. With Disney, you have to NOT ONLY offer them something fresh and new BUT YOU HAVE TO OFFER THEM SOMETHING CLASSIC AND IMAGINATIVE LIKE SPACESHIP EARTH. It's a way to connect generations. Take these out and you lose the families that introduce a new generation to the magic of Disney. Again not something good for either Disney or EPCOT.

Second, I can't speak for DL Pooh, but WDW Pooh is always jam packed. So, you DEFINITELY DON'T NEED JUST THRILL RIDES TO PACK THEM IN! My girlfriend and I love this ride. For adults it connects you to childhood and it is a thrill if you let your heart and imagination run with it. I visually see a lot of adults only and teens only riders on all of the Fantasyland rides, so Disney must have done something right with these types of rides and shouldn't abandom them all together.

Lets not forget that EPCOT and the Magic Kingdom have demographics of their own. Certain groups of people visit the Magic Kingdom, like parents with small children. Certain other groups of people visit Epcot, like parents with children 10 and up. Disney is jsut expanding on this difference to make Epcot more appealing to people who aren't that particularly interested in Snow White or Pooh. As the entertainment requirements of the general public continue to evolve, Disney can't allow parks like Islands of Adventure to take all of the revenue from a certain demographic.

Disney may always have great customer service but if your product loses relevancy to target market, customer service alone will not make a profit.
 

Testtrack321

Well-Known Member
I think just saying the lines are long so lots of people ride is a stupid idea. Ever heard of HOURLY CAPACITY? Indy Speedway has little capacity, but long lines, so less people ride. But TTA has no line but a HUGE capacity. So comparing lines for two rides is insane.

But the Test Track lines have not even falls, but have gotten longer when I've gone. I wouldn't say that it's "loosing it's appeal" at all. But I'm worried that M:S might loose some appeal.... but that's another discussion for another time. :animwink:
 

dox

New Member
The bottom line is Disney needs to get but*s at Epcot, as well as, all four parks. To suggest that Disney has become too focused on thrill rides is insane. What thrill rides?? It's going to be ten years soon since RnRC opened. Test Track is not a "thril ride" per se and is also about ten years old soon. If anything Disney needs to come up with some more.

The biggest complaint from your average theme park visitor has always been that WDW lacks thrill rides. ToT and RnR immediately solved attendance problems at the Studios and made it a full fledged all day park. Granted Epcot has always been a full day park, but the dark rides had a limited appeal. I for one loved them, always have and still do, but it's appeal was lost on most parkgoers. I can guarantee that most park goers don't miss WofM or Horizons very much. I've been going to Epcot since the summer of 83. I never stood in a single line for more than 5 mins. for any of the dark rides at Epcot (other than the Land) until Body Wars and HISTA opened. They obviously had some kind of appeal as opposed to the other rides.
 

Lee

Adventurer
Just got word today from a well-placed source that the proposed SE redo is dead.
They hit a snag with the engineering that was gonna cost mucho dinero. And no, they were never going to just "gut" it. They are already looking at new ways to update the ride without the previously considered structural changes. As for "Time Racers", it could appear as a post show in the Global Neighborhood area at some point.

Stay tuned.
 

General Grizz

New Member
Originally posted by Lee
Just got word today from a well-placed source that the proposed SE redo is dead.
They hit a snag with the engineering that was gonna cost mucho dinero. And no, they were never going to just "gut" it. They are already looking at new ways to update the ride without the previously considered structural changes. As for "Time Racers", it could appear as a post show in the Global Neighborhood area at some point.

Stay tuned.

:D
 

Testtrack321

Well-Known Member
:)

Just invest on improving the omni-mover system, add TONS of more AAs, improve the sound, put new special effects in, and presto, I'm happy. Grizzy is happy. We're all happy!
 

TURKEY

New Member
Originally posted by Testtrack321
:)

Just invest on improving the omni-mover system, add TONS of more AAs, improve the sound, put new special effects in, and presto, I'm happy. Grizzy is happy. We're all happy!

Yep....sounds good.

I've got some questions.

1. Is the current ride system the original system?
1a. If not, how long has the current system been in place?
2. Does anyone know the expected lifetime of the ride system?
3. How old and model (advanced like the Witch in GMR?) are the AAs?
3a. Life expectancy of AAs?
 

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