Ticket price increase / FP+ changes coming?

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
Cool. So all three of you sound like people that have been vacationing at WDW frequently for many many years. Do you know what demographic makes up 60% of annual attendance at the parks? First-time visitors. Meaning these are people who may only go once in their lifetimes and therefore need to maximize their time to make the most out of their experience, who could not just go in blind and leave without regrets because there's always the possibility they may never be back.

It's easy to look at the past with rose colored glasses when you have 40 years of experiencing the parks under your belt and knowing if you miss something the first time you can always come back. You're not the target demographic. For many, many people both then and now it's very much a now or never situation and if you don't prepare and instead just wing it, and I know many people that did just that for their first visit, you could walk away having a very negative experience with no intent to return.
Yes, but the issue in question was a spontaneous day or two trip. Not a once in a lifetime vacation. And it was 100% possible to have a spontaneous one day visit with virtually no planning. Im as guilty as anyone for wearing rose colored glasses on some things. But that is not the case with what I said here. And in no way am I saying you can do that now. My sister, mom and 2 nephews decided to do a day at magic kingdom 2 summers ago while they were at the beach. I warned them not to, but they did it anyway. And even with experience, it was mostly a train wreck. But that was something we did regularly back in the 80s and 90s.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Cool. So all three of you sound like people that have been vacationing at WDW frequently for many many years. Do you know what demographic makes up 60% of annual attendance at the parks? First-time visitors. Meaning these are people who may only go once in their lifetimes and therefore need to maximize their time to make the most out of their experience, who could not just go in blind and leave without regrets because there's always the possibility they may never be back.

It's easy to look at the past with rose colored glasses when you have 40 years of experiencing the parks under your belt and knowing if you miss something the first time you can always come back. You're not the target demographic. For many, many people both then and now it's very much a now or never situation and if you don't prepare and instead just wing it, and I know many people that did just that for their first visit, you could walk away having a very negative experience with no intent to return.
People have a greater need to maximize their time because Disney has committed to wasting their time. Stagnant capacity means more people trying to do the same things because Disney doesn’t want you doing much more than 7.3 experiences.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
1994. I'm aware of what things were like at the time in the days of pre-Fastpass and ADRs not being a necessity.

Then why did you say "Disney has never been and will never be a destination that you could just spontaneously visit for a day or two and have a great time." if you yourself are now saying you know it once was?

Why is it "garbage" for people to discuss that?

And honestly, I wouldn't say pre-Fastpass in this regard, just pre-Fastpass+ and lack of attraction build-out to support the demands that system has put on availability.

That's mostly what I was responding to and I feel like you're trying to move attention away from your original statement, now. (apologies if that's not the case)

Also, I've taken plenty of trips to destinations not controlled by a single entity and not had to plan out the details of every day starting half a year in advance to avoid eating fast food for every meal and potentially missing out on most of what I was interested in while having to coordinate transportation around while there, figure out restaurants, and individual attractions/points-of-interest all through different vendors.

Something like that should be a far more complex trip than a stay at a single resort with a single vendor handling everything, shouldn't it?

How is it that Disney for instance, is a considerably more difficult and complicated trip than one to New York or Las Vegas as a tourist?

And as for the single day just show up experience, nobody else in central Florida seems to struggle with this. Universal's two parks and entertainment district seem to work fine under this model. I'm guessing their third will, too.

If anything, for most people without experience, I'd have to think it is 10x worse to try to make sense of it all and plan a trip to WDW these days since Disney has turned it into something people have to educate themselves so heavily on prior to arrival.

Why is that?
 
Last edited:

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
1994. I'm aware of what things were like at the time in the days of pre-Fastpass and ADRs not being a necessity.





Cool. So all three of you sound like people that have been vacationing at WDW frequently for many many years. Do you know what demographic makes up 60% of annual attendance at the parks? First-time visitors. Meaning these are people who may only go once in their lifetimes and therefore need to maximize their time to make the most out of their experience, who could not just go in blind and leave without regrets because there's always the possibility they may never be back.

It's easy to look at the past with rose colored glasses when you have 40 years of experiencing the parks under your belt and knowing if you miss something the first time you can always come back. You're not the target demographic. For many, many people both then and now it's very much a now or never situation and if you don't prepare and instead just wing it, and I know many people that did just that for their first visit, you could walk away having a very negative experience with no intent to return.


Huh?

This is the reverse of what you posted earlier, "Disney has never been and will never be a destination that you could just spontaneously visit for a day or two and have a great time (APs aside)"

Yet now you are saying you went to WDW in that time period.


Thousands of people go to WDW every day. Each has their own level of enjoyment, planning, plans going astray, plans going great.
Some return, some don't.

They have a wide range of reasons why.

Some even make up their mind before they every enter WDW that they aren't going to like it. Some folks actually walk around WDW wearing shirts that say, more or less, I'm only here because my spouse made me come.

They don't give me the impression more WDW planning would make them happier to be at WDW.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
Something like that should be a far more complex trip than a stay at a single resort with a single vendor handling everything, shouldn't it?

How is it that Disney for instance, is a considerably more difficult and complicated trip than one to New York or Las Vegas as a tourist?

And as for the single day just show up experience, nobody else in central Florida seems to struggle with this. Universal's two parks and entertainment district seem to work fine under this model. I'm guessing their third will, too.

If anything, for most people without experience, I'd have to think it is 10x worse to try to make sense of it all and plan a trip to WDW these days since Disney has turned it into something people have to educate themselves so heavily on prior to arrival.

Why is that?

I've long had the same thoughts- more or less!


It isn't just the planning that's a problem in today's WDW. It is the absurdity of all the hoop jumping.

WDW's service approach feels dated, when WDW used to be a service leader.

They feel painfully stuck in like, the 1990's.
 

easyrowrdw

Well-Known Member
Yes, but the issue in question was a spontaneous day or two trip. Not a once in a lifetime vacation. And it was 100% possible to have a spontaneous one day visit with virtually no planning. Im as guilty as anyone for wearing rose colored glasses on some things. But that is not the case with what I said here. And in no way am I saying you can do that now. My sister, mom and 2 nephews decided to do a day at magic kingdom 2 summers ago while they were at the beach. I warned them not to, but they did it anyway. And even with experience, it was mostly a train wreck. But that was something we did regularly back in the 80s and 90s.

My experience during that same time was different. We added a day to our trip and had to get the tickets the morning we visited the park. I made fastpasses on the ferry ride over from the TTC. I can't remember exactly what we did, but it was a full morning and early afternoon. Obviously we missed Mine Train and Pan, but it was plenty of fun. We would've done more if not for an afternoon thunderstorm and then needing to get to Magic Express.

I did have a base of knowledge to work from, which certainly helped. Still, I was pleasantly surprised by how much we were able to do. I think it would be harder to accomplish at the other parks. We did okay with spontaneous trips to HS and Epcot this December, but it wasn't as simple. And we again missed the headliners (Slinky, Falcon, Frozen) because we didn't want to wait in a long line.
 

WDWVolFan

Well-Known Member
Boarding Passes only would devalue the perks of staying in the resort. If Disney made it equal for everyone else I would not stay on property anymore. That’s one of the perks of paying the higher prices of staying in property. I’m all for waking up early and being at the park for rope drop, but what about those who are not early risers? And anyone who thinks they are better than anyone else because they are rope droppers can f themselves and get over themselves.
 

el_super

Well-Known Member
And honestly, I wouldn't say pre-Fastpass in this regard, just pre-Fastpass+ and lack of attraction build-out to support the demands that system has put on availability.

I havent read this whole thread, but just wanted to touch on this small point: building out more attractions to increase capacity doesn't solve the problem that Fastpass is trying to resolve. When you have 17 million people trying to ride the Haunted Mansion or Space Mountain you have to distribute that capacity in a fair manner (as Fastpass does). Fastpass is meant to distribute capacity for individual attractions. It doesn't really change the desire to go on a specific attraction. Opening TRON isn't going to suddenly make Space Mountain obsolete and curb demand.
 

MickeyLuv'r

Well-Known Member
?
But people can only be on one attraction at a time. If I have say - 3 awesome rides to choose from, I'm not going to care which one I do first. At MK, I'm happy to ride any of the mtns.

But I'm also going to choose the park(s) that have the most rides, if I have less than 4 days. Even with 4 days, I may well do MK twice, but skip one of the parks with few rides.

If all four parks had roughly as many attractions as MK, and they were roughly the same quality, my time would be more evenly split.

For myself, if AK or HS suddenly had twice as many new rides, I'd even likely skip MK, because I've seen all of MK many times. (then again, knowing me, I might go to the least crowded park...but the masses would go to the park with the newest rides.)

I'm hoping all the new rides are going to help the current situation.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
I havent read this whole thread, but just wanted to touch on this small point: building out more attractions to increase capacity doesn't solve the problem that Fastpass is trying to resolve. When you have 17 million people trying to ride the Haunted Mansion or Space Mountain you have to distribute that capacity in a fair manner (as Fastpass does). Fastpass is meant to distribute capacity for individual attractions. It doesn't really change the desire to go on a specific attraction. Opening TRON isn't going to suddenly make Space Mountain obsolete and curb demand.
No, that’s exactly what happens. As attendance increases the percentage of visitors who experience any single attraction decreases.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
I havent read this whole thread, but just wanted to touch on this small point: building out more attractions to increase capacity doesn't solve the problem that Fastpass is trying to resolve. When you have 17 million people trying to ride the Haunted Mansion or Space Mountain you have to distribute that capacity in a fair manner (as Fastpass does). Fastpass is meant to distribute capacity for individual attractions. It doesn't really change the desire to go on a specific attraction. Opening TRON isn't going to suddenly make Space Mountain obsolete and curb demand.

I'm curios what problem you think the current fastpass system is trying to resolve?

I say that because I'm not talking about anything fastpass it attempting to "fix". I’m talking about how adding popular attraction capacity can help solve some of the problems that fastpass+ seems to have had a part in creating.

If you're going to respond to this, I'd suggest a more careful read of the thread so you understand what I mean when I say that.

I'd like to touch on something else you said about the fastpass distributing capacity in a fair manner, though: Whether or not Fastpass is "fair" is a subjective debate since "fair" is a made up thing that means something different to literally everyone.

If you're stuck in a 3 hour standby wait for FOP because the majority of that attraction's capacity is reserved for fastpass+ and all fastpass availabiity was gone before you were allowed into the system to get yours when not staying on property, that probably doesn't feel very fair to you.

On the other hand, if you paid for club level access at the Grand Floridian, getting more than 3 the standard free fastpass' to book in advance probably seems perfectly fair to you. You paid through the nose for that privilege.

Both perspectives are valid and I’m not trying to say either one is more fair than the other.

But if by "fair" you mean "level", then it absolutely isn't.

And again, when you have fastpass in a park and people can still get a fastpass for something - anything - on most days, it seems on paper like the system is working.

Nevermind that it may be for a ride like JIYI that is avaiaible simply because most guests have no interest in doing it (evedenced by the fact that it didn't have a wait before FP was added and still has little to no standy wait even after it was added) or that it may be for something like Aladdin - a glorified carnival ride that in most other places with similar rides (Universal, Sea World, Bush Gardens, Legoland, just about any Six Flags and just about any state or county fair in the country) is usually a walk-on or near-walk on type of experience to begin with.

That they felt the need to pad out Fastpass availability with things like this when they changed over to Fastpass+ shows that SOMEBODY knew popular attraction capacity was a problem from the start.

With the resort and DVC additions that have popped up since, things have only gotten worse.
 
Last edited:

el_super

Well-Known Member
No, that’s exactly what happens. As attendance increases the percentage of visitors who experience any single attraction decreases.

And adding more attractions increases attendance.


I'm curios what problem you think the current fastpass system is trying to resolve?

Fastpass is meant to give guests an option of riding am attraction without waiting in line. It's a guest service plain and simple.

If you're going to respond to this, I'd suggest a more careful read of the thread so you understand what I mean when I say that.

Read the thread, and no it's still not clear what you think will happen to attraction capacity by opening new attractions. Like I said before, people don't stop wanting to go on Space Mountain because TRON is open. What tends to happen when new attractions open, is that the rides with open capacity now (Tiki Room, Carousel of Progress, People mover) end up with fewer people, and the popular rides stay popular. There's just more of them.
 

Touchdown

Well-Known Member
Actually eventually popular rides get less of a queue. I bring up the example of Magnum XL-200. Built in 1989 as the tallest, fastest and first hyper coaster on the planet it commanded 2+ hour lines consistently from 1989-1999. However, come the year 2000 Millennium Force opened 100 ft taller, suddenly Magnum, which to this day would be a headliner at any other park in the world, commands 15-45 min waits on all but the most crowded of days.

Same thing happened to Raptor when Gatekeeper opened.

That is because the new ride was similar enough of an experience that it syphoned demand for the old ride. I actually think Tron will significantly affect Spaces line and decrease demand for it, I also think that GotG will do the same for Test Track for the same reason. People will want to ride the new ride because it’s “the must do” but anyone who is disappointed by or dislikes that experience will bypass the “other ride” likewise many people will stop attempting to multi ride the older ride in favor of the new ride.

It doesn’t happen always (none of the new stuff at DHS is similar enough to do this) but I do think Disney has two upcoming rides that will negatively affect old classics popularity.
 

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Maybe it's just me, but it seems like DisneyWorld.com is having issues today. It wasn't loading the full page earlier and now as I try to price out tickets for a fall vacation it's not loading the daily rates.
 

MrPromey

Well-Known Member
And adding more attractions increases attendance.

No.

Adding more attractions and marketing them to kingdom-come increases attendance. Toy Story Land did not need a Superbowl spot the year it opened in a park that was low on things for guests to do even with the addition of two attractions, neither of which were e-tickets.

... and yet it got one.

And partially as a result this kind of marketing agression, we see 90 minute waits for a coaster that in any other park in Central Florida, would see nothing like that for a ride with a comparable level of theme/emersion.

Legoland has a coaster with MORE that's usually near walk-on, for instance.

If Disney opened TRON and did not include an international marketing blitz to promote it, the bump in attendance that potentially swallows all that extra capacity and then some wouldn't be nearly as large, wouldn't you agree?

My point here, is it is within Disney's power to manage things in a way that improves the guest experience. Because that's the less profitable route, they chose not to - even with something as non-consequential as what the Toy Story Land addition gave us.

Fastpass is meant to give guests an option of riding am attraction without waiting in line. It's a guest service plain and simple.

That's what it says on the tin and I believe that was the intent of the original fastpass but I I believe that today, management looks at FP+ as a marketable benefit for onsite guests.

Since fastpass lines can easily exceed 20 minutes these days for more popular attractions, I'd say it fails on that "not waiting in line" front, even if that's really what it's still supposedly for.

They can't offer resort guests straight out front-of-the-line access because they have too many rooms and not enough ride capacity. Likewise, offering the current Fastpass system to only resort guests would create huge customer service problems with everyone else paying $100+ to get in and spending most of their time in standby watching these other people walk by for everything but with resort guests getting 60 day access (or more, in some cases) and with some guests at the highest tier rate of rooms able to get more than three in advance, they have a marketable reason to pay their inflated room rates while making it appear like a somewhat "fair" system to all.*

Just look in this very thread (and many others) where people's argument against the 30 day window is "Nobody's stopping you from booking a room on property and getting the 60+ access, too." and that's exactly the point Disney doesn't want to come out and say but expects people to understand if they want fastpass access to 7DMT or FOP or pretty much anything else opened in the last decade worth doing.

What started as a guest benefit within the parks is today, a strategy to secure more on-site bookings and it works. If Disney didn't see it that way, why would they even offer the tiered system as they do?

Read the thread, and no it's still not clear what you think will happen to attraction capacity by opening new attractions. Like I said before, people don't stop wanting to go on Space Mountain because TRON is open. What tends to happen when new attractions open, is that the rides with open capacity now (Tiki Room, Carousel of Progress, People mover) end up with fewer people, and the popular rides stay popular. There's just more of them.

As I said before, it creates more fastpass availability in the park for popular attractions. Again, as I agreed with you before, people won't stop wanting Space Mountain because of TRON but now the demand will be TRON, then Space Mountain which means other people will have a shot at the Space Mountain Fastpass that didn't before and for people who book fastpass for both TRON and Space Mountain, well maybe someone new will get lucky with a Seven Dwarfs Mine Train Fastpass or a Thunder Mountain Fastpass.

I'm not arguing that popular rides don't stay popular (and from the sounds of it, you haven't seen the line for People Mover lately) but more popular rides means more popular ride choices, both for standby and fastpass.

More importantly, though, instead of focusing your example on the park most able to handle the fastpass system both today and since the start of it, I think it makes more sense to consider the other three parks which definitely did not have enough that was in demand to support this system when it originally rolled out and have not added enough to handle it, today.

The impact of all of this is much greater in the other three parks where there are fewer attractions overall and where the gap in popularity among them is more obvious - especially Epcot where at the moment, you basically have three attractions that are the center of what people want to do and they have to make it tiered to deal with that and do dumb stuff like make a viewing area for the night show something in the same tier so it looks like they have more "premium" experiences to choose from.**

Again, there being an available fastpass for Journey Into Your Imagination or, let's say, The Little Mermaid show is hardly evidence that the system is working. A fastpass for an attraction with little or no standby wait to begin with isn't really a fastpass, is it?

And if these attractions did need it so badly, why didn't they along with many others, have it before fastpass got it's "+"?

Were people happier waiting in line the day before they flipped the switch on the new system than the day after?


*I'm not trying to argue that people who pay Disney's prices for rooms shouldn't get something extra in return. I'm just pointing out that as with many of Disney's modern "premium" experiences (i.e. up-charges of one kind or another), this benefit added to one group while taking something away from everyone else.

Frankly, it's pretty cuthroat, even within the 60 day group for people to get the fastpasses they want sometimes, even with the advantage - just look at the various "strategies" people around here employ.

**Oh the fools who get this and can't book another fastpass in the park all day since this happens at the end of the night but think they're getting something special when Frozen, Test Track, and Soarin' are off the table at the time they book.
 
Last edited:

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom