Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[DavidDL]

Okay, four things here...

1) Not all people of color feel the same way about the ride. I obviously don't want anyone of color to feel uncomfortable while at a Disney park nor am I claiming that these people you talked too are wrong for feeling this way, just pointing that out.
2) Where were all of these people complaining about how racist the ride was before 2020? If the ride were seriously as racist as people are making it out to be, why are people only NOW pointing it out?
3) The Princess and the Frog has been dubbed racist too, y'know. Mama Odie is a stereotypical "sassy black woman". Dr. Facilier has some elements of being a black stereotype (practices voodoo, has big lips, etc.). If you're going to weaponize a movie to use against Song of the South and Splash Mountain, don't have it be a movie that suffers from the same problems.
4) I'm not Indian, but I still find Raj from The Big Bang Theory offensive. I was never offended by the natives on the Jungle Cruise, but I can at least SEE how somebody might find them offensive. I understand why Song of the South is considered offensive. I understand why the Indians from Peter Pan are considered offensive. So don't just throw the "you don't get it 'cause you're white!" excuse at me.

And finally, even if Splash Mountain DOES offend people, Disney isn't changing it because they care about how those people feel. The "it's been in development for a year, we swear!" excuse is blatant bullcrap. They're doing this because people demanded it and they were too afraid to ignore those people and leave the ride as is.

1) Hey, agreed. We don't want people feeling uncomfortable. -and last time I was at Downtown Disney, I saw a Black guy wearing a Splash Mountain T-shirt so you're right to an extent, not all people of color feel the same way about the attraction. But Disney is a corporation and the negative publicity that would might've hit them in the social media age from folks who do take issue with it would do more to damage their brand than that singular person in Downtown Disney will to help it.

2) Just because they weren't seen doesn't mean they weren't there. In the age of social media, lots of folks feel like they have the power to speak up. Or maybe before they didn't think complaining would do anything so they didn't feel like it was worth it. Back in the 90's I probably would have agreed with that statement because it's harder to get the word out. But as new generations of Disney fans are brought into the fold, each with a super computer that can answer any question they want in their pocket, is it really a surprise that they might want to Google information about Splash Mountain, what inspired it and where it came from? In other words, audiences when Splash opened were likely uninformed (the characters were obscure) or felt powerless to make change. Those days are over with the advent of smart phones and the folks who grew up with them.

3) PatF is not a perfect film, we're not disputing that. Lots of folks also take issue with the people of color being turned into animals (a common trope that prevents them from being in their own skin), but it's still leagues better than what SotS causes them to reckon with. Some day, the attraction may change again. Nay, it will change again. All things do.

4) So, because you are White and able to identify elements of other shows, movies or attractions you feel are racist, that gives you the power to dictate to people of color who are offended by the natives in JC or the characters on Splash that their feelings are irrelevant? That doesn't wash. What matters here is their voice, regardless of how adept you feel you are at identifying issues in our media landscape. Our experiences will never compare and it's not our job to tell others how they should feel. Our job is to listen.

-and finally, I more or less agree that the change wasn't "in the works" before. The timing was too perfect. But it's a good change, regardless, so it really doesn't matter when or why they're doing it.

 

[DavidDL]

I'm sorry, I'm just getting tired of the people in support of this retheme nagging others for not being okay with it. And it seriously seems like all of this hatred towards Splash Mountain only began after Frederick Chambers posted his idea for a retheme of the ride based on The Princess and the Frog on Twitter.

I do not mean to come off rudely either. But I don't think I'm going to come to peace with this change. If this happens, at least one of the following things will likely happen as a result...
- The same people who demanded Splash Mountain be rethemed will start demanding Disney replace more rides they find problematic (I saw a petition to get rid of Dumbo).
- Disney will learn that bowing to pressure from the "woke mob" or whatever we're calling them will work out in their favor.
- The retheme will likely turn out to be crappy and we'll all be stuck with a crappy ride.
- Disney will suffer from financial problems, what with them being in the middle of a PANDEMIC.
- People who find The Princess and the Frog racist will start demanding the ride be rethemed again.
- If Disney DID come up with the idea themselves and use Frederick Chambers to orchestrate the demand to make them retheme Splash Mountain so as to avoid getting flack for replacing a popular ride, they'll learn that they can manipulate and use people to get away with replacing popular rides.
- If the "we were planning this for a while" claim they're throwing at us IS a lie (which I'm still fully convinced it is), Frederick Chambers will become even MORE egotistical over the fact that he got a Disney ride changed.
- People are still going to argue with each other over whether or not Splash Mountain was racist.

I'm not seeing a bright side to any of this.

The petition to get rid of something like Dumbo doesn't have the same amount of steam behind it currently and will likely fizzle out. Disney knows there's an issue with the crows in that film and they placed a warning label on the movie to address it and don't feature them in the attraction.

Unlike SotS, though, Dumbo is more or less a product they can still work with in some capacity. Heck, it just got a live action update. The crows are not a crucial element to that franchise so they can still work with it.

Like you, I also hope the re-do of Splash comes out good and I have my reservations after Pixar Pier and Mission: Breakout. If they do a bad job, I'll be upset because they did a bad job, certainly. But we haven't gotten anywhere near that bridge so I won't bother worrying about something that hasn't happened, yet.

I don't know what to say about all the "woke mob" demanding stuff being brought up. I agree there are likely some lines that should be allowed to be crossed (in areas like, observational comedy, for example) in certain situations. But maybe, just maybe, there's an issue here that actually needs to be addressed and that's why so much steam was gained? There's no promise they'll be able to gain the same amount of traction for other things that are ultimately, fruitless endeavors per lack of outrage.

Disney is a company. Like others have said, Splash is just too closely connected to SotS. Back in the day, they could get away with because the film and characters were super obscure. Nowadays, they're not and a light is shined on them with how connected everything is. Disney wants to do something about that and sadly, that means making the necessary changes to Splash to remove the characters from that film.

 

[EagleScout610]

1. Going "Splash Mountain still has to go because it's based on Song of the South" is in of itself a criticism of my idea. Nobody else aside from you said anything else about my idea, just THAT. And per usual, they're doing it in a really condescending and rude fashion.

2. It's becoming clear to me that most of the people on here don't really give a crap about The Princess and the Frog, they've just been brainwashed by Frederick Chambers and his fans into thinking that the ride was racist (just pointing out that the fact that it features characters and songs from Song of the South wasn't a well-kept secret before 2020) and are using it as a weapon against the Brers.


3. Okay, four things here...
2) Where were all of these people complaining about how racist the ride was before 2020? If the ride were seriously as racist as people are making it out to be, why are people only NOW pointing it out?


4. And finally, even if Splash Mountain DOES offend people, Disney isn't changing it because they care about how those people feel. The "it's been in development for a year, we swear!" excuse is blatant bullcrap. They're doing this because people demanded it and they were too afraid to ignore those people and leave the ride as is.

1. It's called constructive criticism. We're not saying your idea is terrible, hence the name IMAGINEering. We're just saying that, although you continue to fight it, Splash Mountain will be going away at some point. The sooner you make peace with it the better.

2. No. Leave Fredrick Chambers alone.

3. There have been people who complained pre-2020, it was just not as prevelant until Disney announced they were changing the ride.

4. There have been proposals to change Splash Mountain before. Tangled, Brother Bear, and obviously PatF, have been the three main choices, although the first two never got off the ground.

 

[Brer Panther]

So, because you are White and able to identify elements of other shows, movies or attractions you feel are racist, that gives you the power to dictate to people of color who are offended by the natives in JC or the characters on Splash that their feelings are irrelevant?

Whoa, sorry. That wasn't what I was trying to say at all. Actually, I did say that I understand why people of color would be offended by the Natives. What I was trying to say is that it seemed like you were implying that I didn't understand why Splash Mountain is considered racist because I'm not a person of color.

And much in the same way, people who aren't of color (such as Bob Iger and Frederick Chambers) shouldn't have the right to dictate what people who ARE of color should find offensive.

The petition to get rid of something like Dumbo doesn't have the same amount of steam behind it currently and will likely fizzle out. Disney knows there's an issue with the crows in that film and they placed a warning label on the movie to address it and don't feature them in the attraction.

Unlike SotS, though, Dumbo is more or less a product they can still work with in some capacity. Heck, it just got a live action update. The crows are not a crucial element to that franchise so they can still work with it.

Like you, I also hope the re-do of Splash comes out good and I have my reservations after Pixar Pier and Mission: Breakout. If they do a bad job, I'll be upset because they did a bad job, certainly. But we haven't gotten anywhere near that bridge so I won't bother worrying about something that hasn't happened, yet.

I don't know what to say about all the "woke mob" demanding stuff being brought up. I agree there are likely some lines that should be allowed to be crossed (in areas like, observational comedy, for example) in certain situations. But maybe, just maybe, there's an issue here that actually needs to be addressed and that's why so much steam was gained? There's no promise they'll be able to gain the same amount of traction for other things that are ultimately, fruitless endeavors per lack of outrage.

Disney is a company. Like others have said, Splash is just too closely connected to SotS. Back in the day, they could get away with because the film and characters were super obscure. Nowadays, they're not and a light is shined on them with how connected everything is. Disney wants to do something about that and sadly, that means making the necessary changes to Splash to remove the characters from that film.

Ever see Mickey in Arabia? Californy 'er Bust? Mickey's Mellerdramer? Those shorts have racist stuff in 'em, but nobody's demanding that Mickey and Goofy be removed from the parks. And I think it stems from the fact that they're not as well-known. Disney banning Song of the South caused people to assume it was an incredibly racist movie. And while it IS racist (or at least problematic), from what I've heard it's only about on par with Gone With the Wind. This really only happened because Song of the South is an easy target. It's the Disney film supposedly so racist that it had to be banned. What if years from now, after the ride is rethemed and it has a reputation as "that Disney ride so racist that it had to be rethemed", people look up videos of it on YouTube, watch it, and think, "Huh. It's not as racist as they made it out to be."?

1. It's called constructive criticism. We're not saying your idea is terrible, hence the name IMAGINEering. We're just saying that, although you continue to fight it, Splash Mountain will be going away at some point. The sooner you make peace with it the better.

2. No. Leave Fredrick Chambers alone.

3. There have been people who complained pre-2020, it was just not as prevelant until Disney announced they were changing the ride.

4. There have been proposals to change Splash Mountain before. Tangled, Brother Bear, and obviously PatF, have been the three main choices, although the first two never got off the ground.

1. I'll be sure to tell you to "make peace with it" when Disney decides to close an attraction YOU really like. And it's hard to make peace with it when people like you are treating me like an idiot or a bad person over a THEME PARK RIDE.

2. Why are you so obsessed with defending Frederick Chambers? Because his idea to retheme Splash Mountain opened your eyes as to how racist Splash Mountain supposedly is?

3. Okay, fine. No argument for that one.

4. None of those other proposals got as much publicity as Frederick Chambers' did. Nor did they spawn a PETITION to get that proposal made. And as I've pointed out before, Disney brushed off The Princess and the Frog as a flop and proof that hand-drawn animated films were guaranteed box office bombs, then proceeded to ignore it for years, and now they're suddenly going to build a ride about it a decade later? I call bullcrap.

And saying "Splash Mountain must be rethemed to this specific movie because it's so racist!" is not construction criticism. It doesn't even have anything to do with my idea, it's just you immediately shutting down the IDEA of them building a ride based on the film that you've made a weapon against the Brers somewhere else and leaving Splash Mountain alone.

 

[DavidDL]

Look, for anyone who wants to keep Splash around, the course of action is clear: you need to convince the general public and the masses that there's nothing wrong with Song of the South. If that isn't done, then there is no way to save the current incarnation of Splash. It's just too closely connected and Disney clearly wants that to end. -and in the age of the internet, Disney can't hide how connected it is anymore.

Heck, just look at the WDW park map. It was so closely tied to the ride, it was even listed under it's information. Now it's not. Disney wants nothing to do with the film's association. There's no other way out of it at this point. Unless, you can convince the world that SotS is okay.

 

[Brer Panther]

Look, for anyone who wants to keep Splash around, the course of action is clear: you need to convince the general public and the masses that there's nothing wrong with Song of the South. If that isn't done, then there is no way to save the current incarnation of Splash. It's just too closely connected and Disney clearly wants that to end. -and in the age of the internet, Disney can't hide how connected it is anymore.

Problem is, the film DOES have problems. It's just that the stuff said about it is overblown.

 

[J4546]

i wrote a long post explaining my feelings on this retheme and then i realized its just a friggin log flume and theres no reason to get so upset over a ride change at an amusement park. no matter how classic it is, things change. everything in every park will eventually change.

 

[Disney Irish]

If I might wade in here for one second. @Brer Panther you obviously are taking this change very personally because its your one of your favorite attractions. You had an interesting idea, and no one shot it down, but your idea didn't address Disney's desire to change the attraction. So I'm all-in for your idea, build a PatF attraction replacing Pooh.

Now tell me what your idea is for changing Splash so that it aligns with Disney's desire to remove the SotS elements? I understand your goal with your idea is to prevent Splash from being changed, but that ship has sailed. So what idea do you have for updating Splash to remove the SotS elements that would make you accepting of this change?

 

[Brer Panther]

Now tell me what your idea is for changing Splash so that it aligns with Disney's desire to remove the SotS elements? I understand your goal with your idea is to prevent Splash from being changed, but that ship has sailed. So what idea do you have for updating Splash to remove the SotS elements that would make you accepting of this change?

I think a good way to help distance the ride from Song of the South is to do more with the Brers. Do a series, or a series of shorts, starring the Brers handled by African-Americans. Maybe they could add displays or something to Splash Mountain's queue explaining the characters' origins in African-American folklore. If people are genuinely offended by Brer Fox's voice, have J.D. Hall rerecord the dialogue. The queue in Disneyland's version has some references to Uncle Remus, doesn't it? Remove those.

I feel that if you take the Brers out of Splash Mountain, it isn't Splash Mountain anymore.

 

[Disney Irish]

I think a good way to help distance the ride from Song of the South is to do more with the Brers. Do a series, or a series of shorts, starring the Brers handled by African-Americans. Maybe they could add displays or something to Splash Mountain's queue explaining the characters' origins in African-American folklore. If people are genuinely offended by Brer Fox's voice, have J.D. Hall rerecord the dialogue. The queue in Disneyland's version has some references to Uncle Remus, doesn't it? Remove those.

I feel that if you take the Brers out of Splash Mountain, it isn't Splash Mountain anymore.

I get where you're going with this idea. And in another time that might have worked. But we are beyond that now. So the question is what idea do you have that would remove completely any reference to SotS including the Brer's? Or is there just no way you'll accept anything if the Brer's aren't included?

 

[Californian Elitist]

At this point, there’s no possible way to keep anything related to SotS in Splash and have it still exist, including the Brers. This is the decision Disney has made.

 

[EagleScout610]

At this point, there no possible way to keep anything related to SotS in Splash and have it still exist, including the Brers. This is the decision Disney has made.

Sad but true

 

[mickEblu]

i wrote a long post explaining my feelings on this retheme and then i realized its just a friggin log flume and theres no reason to get so upset over a ride change at an amusement park. no matter how classic it is, things change. everything in every park will eventually change.

I don’t think the “it’s just a log ride” thing holds water. At least for people like us who spend countless hours on a online Disneyland chat room. If it was just a “log ride” and just a theme park we wouldn’t be spending so much time here.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Sad but true

It is sad. It’s a reality. People are rightfully upset about its going away. Splash is one of the few post-Walt rides that made it to the Disneyland canon of classics. It’s a wonderful attraction, but if we’re being honest, it was only a matter of time before its time would run out. I pondered for years how the ride was still in existence and now here we are. The only one to blame for this is DISNEY. Not some “mob,” not Frederick Chambers, not the fans. It’s Disney and it always has been.

 

[EagleScout610]

It’s a wonderful attraction, but if we’re being honest, it was only a matter of time before its time would run out.

This. This 100% To quote Uncle Remus: "You can't run away from trouble. There ain't no place that far", looks like Splash can't run anymore from trouble

 

[Homemade Imagineering]

It’s a wonderful attraction, but if we’re being honest, it was only a matter of time before its time would run out.

This exactly. That’s why, whenever some people make the assumption that more attractions will be erased/removed/re-themed (pay attention I didn’t say refurbished )(specifically some Walt era attractions), because SM is getting the boot, is ridiculous. SM, whether you like it or not, was a ticking time bomb hiding in plain sight, though not many (including myself) may have seen it coming, because the attraction is so good at distancing itself from the problematic elements in SotS, and we were busy having such a great time. That’s why it’s such a great attraction, because despite its ties to SotS, the attraction provides a uniquely original experience, without even knowing the two are intertwined with each other unless you are familiar with SotS (which prior to this year was fairly rare, especially within the GP).

 

[Californian Elitist]

This exactly. That’s why, whenever some people make the assumption that more attractions will be erased/removed/re-themed (pay attention I didn’t say refurbished )(specifically some Walt era attractions), because SM is getting the boot, is ridiculous. SM, whether you like it or not, was a ticking time bomb hiding in plain sight, though not many (including myself) may have seen it coming, because the attraction is so good at distancing itself from the problematic elements in SotS, and we were busy having such a great time. That’s why it’s such a great attraction, because despite its ties to SotS, the attraction provides a uniquely original experience, without even knowing the two are intertwined with each other unless you are familiar with SotS (which prior to this year was fairly rare, especially within the GP).

Had Disney used the original African folklore material, we wouldn’t be having these conversations. It’s unfortunate.

Really, Uncle Remus ruins everything. His character is cringeworthy. There’s an interview where Walt Disney talks about being a young boy and loving the Uncle Remus stories. Many white people loved them. You read the actual stories and it becomes very clear as to why Remus was so well loved amongst white people. Cringe, cringe, cringe.

 

[DLR92]

It inevitable to the future of Splash Mountian. But I think Disney is handling this very poorly.
While Song of The South is a tasteless move on Walt Disney era. It more embarrassing to see Disney today handling of this intellectual property. Perhaps they should let go of the rights to Song of the South if they were clearly embarrassed of it.

I’m more worried of the new permanent overlay change. I don’t have confident at all they do justice with Princess and the Frog either. I’m more scared it be rushed and suffer same fate like the Frozen Ever After attraction.

 

[BasiltheBatLord]

Had Disney used the original African folklore material, we wouldn’t be having these conversations. It’s unfortunate.

Really, Uncle Remus ruins everything. His character is cringeworthy. There’s an interview where Walt Disney talks about being a young boy and loving the Uncle Remus stories. Many white people loved them. You read the actual stories and it becomes very clear as to why Remus was so well loved amongst white people. Cringe, cringe, cringe.

I’m confused by this. How is Splash Mountain not based on the original African folklore material? The Uncle Remus character is not in the ride except for quotes in the queue. Are the original Br’er characters different from the Joel Chandler Harris ones somehow?

 

[Californian Elitist]

I’m confused by this. How is Splash Mountain not based on the original African folklore material? The Uncle Remus character is not in the ride except for quotes in the queue. Are the original Br’er characters different from the Joel Chandler Harris ones somehow?

Splash Mountain is based on SotS, which is based on the Uncle Remus Tales, stories written by a white man and are separate from the original African folklore, where there is no Uncle Remus character and the stories aren’t exactly identical.