Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[mickEblu]

Kind of off topic but between this thread and watching PatF recently, I’m reminded of the complaints I’ve heard about Prince Naveen not being Black. My first thought is they would have to change his back story because if they portrayed the first black prince as lazy that probably wouldn’t go over too well. It’s probably the very reason Prince Naveen is not Black. It would require re working a major component of the story. Second, the primary purpose of a Disney animated feature is to be entertaining. Not to be a political statement. A Frog with a French accent just works better and lends itself to more humorous possibilities.

 

[Brer Oswald]

To those who might find the complaints about SotS and its portrayal of 19th century Southern black Americans, as well as the Uncle Remus stories, Joel Chandler Harris, etc. to be insignificant, idiotic, a waste of time, or what have you, I encourage you to read this short essay by Alice Walker. It’s very brief and should be accessible.

But I don’t. We’re having an issue of communication. The stories are culturally important, but were appropriated and inappropriately credited to a white man. Disney adapted them as a film, but it was unmistakably inspired by the appropriation. With the ride, they removed it from Harris’ “Uncle Remus” character, but failed to provide the context of the original stories, in that they were tales told by black slaves and had a deeper meaning and significance. Two centuries later, what are supposed to be important Black folk stories are looked at, by the general public, as “racist” stories created by a white guy in the 1800s and adapted into a racist Disney film. Years of ignorance and lack of care has created this image. I think we can mostly agree on this.

Knowing all of this, then comes the distinction of how to move forward. One camp seems to believe that, since the stories have been tainted by ignorance and lack of care, they should just be abandoned. Rather than fix the problem, it has grown too large. Just run away from it.

I don’t agree with that.

The other camp (which seems to be incredibly small) wants better for the stories. How can we move forward to do these stories justice, and restore the legacy of the true creators? Unfortunately, what Disney does is significant because they control such a big stake in the public image of these stories. Did Harris create the Briar Patch and Laughing Place? If not, then there is no reason why the ride needs to be replaced. If so, then it’s a different story. But either way, just leaving the ride as is and doing nothing to bring the characters and stories closer to their roots is not a good idea. Create a film. Modify a ride. Do something to give the original stories and storytellers the justice they deserve.

I can’t tell which camp you’re on. I’ve seen hints of both.

 

[DavidDL]

I understand why folks would be upset to lose a theme park attraction they love. Losing a ride isn't the same as a movie or song getting pulled. In the latter scenario, you can always keep a copy. In the former, it is gone forever and you'll never experience it again.

I won't knock people for trying to do what they can to save an attraction they love but most of the time, these changes are inevitable. So we just have to assess the situation and choose where to fight our battles and expend our energy.

At this point, I don't think there is much that can be done to convince Disney to reverse course. So we're left with the inevitable fact: SoTS/Splash is getting replaced with PatF. Should we waste our time kicking and screaming to Disney or on a message board when we know it's not gonna change anything at this point? I don't think so. Instead, we should move onto the next phase of the "grieving" process for theme park attractions: assessment.

Assess how this is going to affect your park-going experience. Share how you honestly feel, yes but if it's going to be a "deal-breaker" or otherwise overwhemlingly affect your experience in a negative way that you just can't see past: it may be time to move on to other things in life you find enjoyable and invest your energy there. Leave the park behind if this change really damages your experience all that much. It makes sense, right? If you're willingly giving your money to an experience that you know in advance you're no longer capable of enjoying, whose fault is it at that point that you had a bad time? I don't think it's Disney's.

If this change isn't a big enough "deal-breaker" for you to part ways with the park entirely, then just focus on the things there you enjoy and let others enjoy this one. Don't waste your time staying angry over things you can't change if you've already done everything you can. I do this with Mission: Breakout. I enjoy what little there is left for me in that park via Park Hopper ticket because the $50-ish price increase is still worth it to me. When there isn't enough left there for me to enjoy, I will simply stop going altogether and focus on Disneyland. -and if the same happens there, I will move on to find other things in life I love instead of wasting my time, energy and anger on things that are gone and that I can't change.

Sure, I'm sad to see Splash (in this incarnation) go. But I'd still visit Disneyland even if they demolished Splash entirely. I can take it or leave it. -and I'm in no way upset over this change yet because in my mind, it just makes too much sense. I mean c'mon, Splash is literally on the border of New Orleans Square and a land called Critter Country. PatF is a film that takes place in New Orleans centered around folks who find themselves turned into literal Critters. Touche', Disney. I ain't even mad, it's a smart selection and replaces a dated, taboo IP with a more recent one.

But is the overlay totally off the hook yet? Actually, no. Because all I care about is them doing a good job with it. If the PatF overlay is stellar, then awesome! But if they half it, I won't be mad because they got rid of SotS or used PatF, I'll be upset because they half ***ed it. But then I'd move on to what I do enjoy and leave the mountain behind.

I do hope it's possible for them to keep the name, Splash Mountain, though. At it's core, SotS or PatF, that's sort of what the attraction is. -and I think the name is both vague enough to distance itself from SotS while also iconic enough with the Disney fandom to be kept.

 

[el_super]

I get the issue.

I don't think you really do. You keep hand-waving over details of the movie, without addressing that the core concept is just as problematic: a white-owned and controlled movie studio appropriated black stories for their own profit and gain. It isn't just about the characters, the settings, the music, the individual depictions of linguistic traits or whatever other details you can cherry pick to fit your arguments. The mere existence of the movie itself is problematic.

The question is, how do they move forward? Fans are pushing for avoidance of the problem because, quite frankly, they don’t give a darn. We’re all quitters.

Why does Song of the South need to be saved? We have an infinite supply of creativity and storytelling, so why continually prop up this movie and insist it needs to be on a pedestal? Quite frankly I would be happy if it existed as a museum piece and never gets mentioned in the parks again. Let new stories take its place.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

I've stood by as many theme park attractions I've enjoyed or wanted to enjoy were removed. Rocket Rods, Superstar Limo, the German Lethal Weapon roller coaster with a flaming car flying over the track. I think Splash Mt is a little more unique because it has that distinctly Disneyland feel. Even though it only opened in '89, it feels very much like a classic Disneyland element is being forced out and it's hard to be exactly okay with it regardless of whether I think Song of the South is bizarre and offensive.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I don't think you really do. You keep hand-waving over details of the movie, without addressing that the core concept is just as problematic: a white-owned and controlled movie studio appropriated black stories for their own profit and gain. It isn't just about the characters, the settings, the music, the individual depictions of linguistic traits or whatever other details you can cherry pick to fit your arguments. The mere existence of the movie itself is problematic.



Why does Song of the South need to be saved? We have an infinite supply of creativity and storytelling, so why continually prop up this movie and insist it needs to be on a pedestal? Quite frankly I would be happy if it existed as a museum piece and never gets mentioned in the parks again. Let new stories take its place.

For as problematic as it is that a white person appropriated black culture, it is problematic to also erase the original black culture or treat it like it doesn’t matter.

It isn’t about saving SotS. It’s about doing justice to the legacy of the black Americans that created the original story. Your ignorance in this department is direct cause of the appropriation done by Disney and Harris, followed by the continuous mistreatment, concluding with the current erasure. It’s living proof that there is a problem and that this isn’t solving it.

And lastly. If the issue is that they even decided to create a Brer Rabbit film in the first place, is that to say that all adaptations are inherently “problematic”? Should legacy die because nobody is willing to preserve it for free? Or, is the important part the level of accuracy and care they provide when adapting it?

I’m as disappointed with the people that want it to stay just because it’s a good ride as I am with the people that want it to be erased because it isn’t “relevant”. In either case, the real significance of the situation is completely ignored. Based on my observations on here and elsewhere, American Disney Fans mostly seem to care about being entertained by “relevant” content that they are familiar with. The unfamiliarity scares them, and they don’t have a willingness to learn more, so they go into attack mode. I can’t really fault them. It’s an effect of the system is gerbils have been placed in.

And with that, I think I’m out of this community. I’m tired of people implying I’m some disgusting and evil monster for just wanting and requesting better for everyone. I say I don’t respect quitters and here I am quitting. Lol.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

You can't run away from trouble. Ain't no place that far.

 

[el_super]

For as problematic as it is that a white person appropriated black culture, it is problematic to also erase the original black culture or treat it like it doesn’t matter.

You're right, but insinuating that Walt Disney's Song of the South is part of black culture, is wholly inappropriate. It was stolen from black culture, appropriated (twice), repackaged and sold for profit. And now you want to take that stolen toy and make it representative of black culture? Why?

It isn’t about saving SotS. It’s about doing justice to the legacy of the black Americans that created the original story.

There is zero need to save it. If you want to advocate for more inclusion and more black voices in media, you can do so without making the weird equivalency to saving the 1946 movie. If black story tellers want to re-tell the Brer stories with their own voice and in a way that aligns with what they mean to that culture, they should be free to do so without any portion of the old movie coming back to haunt them. Aside from maybe the names of the Brer characters, there's nothing in the Disney version that needs to be kept at all.

I’m as disappointed with the people that want it to stay just because it’s a good ride as I am with the people that want it to be erased because it isn’t “relevant”. In either case, the real significance of the situation is completely ignored. Based on my observations on here and elsewhere, American Disney Fans mostly seem to care about being entertained by “relevant” content that they are familiar with. The unfamiliarity scares them, and they don’t have a willingness to learn more, so they go into attack mode. I can’t really fault them. It’s an effect of the system is gerbils have been placed in.

You're advocating that the ride you are familiar with should be allowed to stay and that something new shouldn't be tried.

 

[Californian Elitist]

But I don’t. We’re having an issue of communication. The stories are culturally important, but were appropriated and inappropriately credited to a white man. Disney adapted them as a film, but it was unmistakably inspired by the appropriation. With the ride, they removed it from Harris’ “Uncle Remus” character, but failed to provide the context of the original stories, in that they were tales told by black slaves and had a deeper meaning and significance. Two centuries later, what are supposed to be important Black folk stories are looked at, by the general public, as “racist” stories created by a white guy in the 1800s and adapted into a racist Disney film. Years of ignorance and lack of care has created this image. I think we can mostly agree on this.

Knowing all of this, then comes the distinction of how to move forward. One camp seems to believe that, since the stories have been tainted by ignorance and lack of care, they should just be abandoned. Rather than fix the problem, it has grown too large. Just run away from it.

I don’t agree with that.

The other camp (which seems to be incredibly small) wants better for the stories. How can we move forward to do these stories justice, and restore the legacy of the true creators? Unfortunately, what Disney does is significant because they control such a big stake in the public image of these stories. Did Harris create the Briar Patch and Laughing Place? If not, then there is no reason why the ride needs to be replaced. If so, then it’s a different story. But either way, just leaving the ride as is and doing nothing to bring the characters and stories closer to their roots is not a good idea. Create a film. Modify a ride. Do something to give the original stories and storytellers the justice they deserve.

I can’t tell which camp you’re on. I’ve seen hints of both.

I didn’t say you did. I’m still confused as to what you believe to be idiotic. My post was not for one specific person.

 

[mickEblu]

I understand why folks would be upset to lose a theme park attraction they love. Losing a ride isn't the same as a movie or song getting pulled. In the latter scenario, you can always keep a copy. In the former, it is gone forever and you'll never experience it again.

I won't knock people for trying to do what they can to save an attraction they love but most of the time, these changes are inevitable. So we just have to assess the situation and choose where to fight our battles and expend our energy.

At this point, I don't think there is much that can be done to convince Disney to reverse course. So we're left with the inevitable fact: SoTS/Splash is getting replaced with PatF. Should we waste our time kicking and screaming to Disney or on a message board when we know it's not gonna change anything at this point? I don't think so. Instead, we should move onto the next phase of the "grieving" process for theme park attractions: assessment.

Assess how this is going to affect your park-going experience. Share how you honestly feel, yes but if it's going to be a "deal-breaker" or otherwise overwhemlingly affect your experience in a negative way that you just can't see past: it may be time to move on to other things in life you find enjoyable and invest your energy there. Leave the park behind if this change really damages your experience all that much. It makes sense, right? If you're willingly giving your money to an experience that you know in advance you're no longer capable of enjoying, whose fault is it at that point that you had a bad time? I don't think it's Disney's.

If this change isn't a big enough "deal-breaker" for you to part ways with the park entirely, then just focus on the things there you enjoy and let others enjoy this one. Don't waste your time staying angry over things you can't change if you've already done everything you can. I do this with Mission: Breakout. I enjoy what little there is left for me in that park via Park Hopper ticket because the $50-ish price increase is still worth it to me. When there isn't enough left there for me to enjoy, I will simply stop going altogether and focus on Disneyland. -and if the same happens there, I will move on to find other things in life I love instead of wasting my time, energy and anger on things that are gone and that I can't change.

Sure, I'm sad to see Splash (in this incarnation) go. But I'd still visit Disneyland even if they demolished Splash entirely. I can take it or leave it. -and I'm in no way upset over this change yet because in my mind, it just makes too much sense. I mean c'mon, Splash is literally on the border of New Orleans Square and a land called Critter Country. PatF is a film that takes place in New Orleans centered around folks who find themselves turned into literal Critters. Touche', Disney. I ain't even mad, it's a smart selection and replaces a dated, taboo IP with a more recent one.

But is the overlay totally off the hook yet? Actually, no. Because all I care about is them doing a good job with it. If the PatF overlay is stellar, then awesome! But if they half *** it, I won't be mad because they got rid of SotS or used PatF, I'll be upset because they half ***ed it. But then I'd move on to what I do enjoy and leave the mountain behind.

I do hope it's possible for them to keep the name, Splash Mountain, though. At it's core, SotS or PatF, that's sort of what the attraction is. -and I think the name is both vague enough to distance itself from SotS while also iconic enough with the Disney fandom to be kept.

I’ve said my piece a million times so I’ll keep it short. I’m more or less at the acceptance phase now. What I hope is for them to keep the Elements that I love about Splash Mountain ( that are possible to keep) while adding the elements I like from PatF. I’ve said this before but a “1 for 1” retheme would work best as everything is laid out for them to succeed if they don’t overthink it. Just keep the focus on set pieces and keep as much of it and the AAs as possible. Ill take some modern bells and whistles if they re tasteful and no screens would be preferable unless it’s some background projection stuff. I hope the queue and first part of the ride pre first drop are still real world and not cartoonfied. Play an instrumental version of whatever song works.

I hope that that first drop into the mountain is where the fantasy begins. I just want the flow to still be there. The build up. The vignettes. The emotional arc. The songs changing after the drops as they do today. I don’t want a 10 minute brightly lit PatF version of IASW. The only things I know want for sure from PatF is for them to put a Louis AA bending over before the roller coaster drop in homage of Brer Bear, to keep Laughing Place scenes blacklit by using Ray/ fireflies bayou scene and to have that transition into the voodoo stuff ultimately leading to Dr Faciliers song playing during the lift hill. Oh ya, I want the ZADD lady to stay in the show final scene of course. I don’t want to see anything non bayou or city related in this ride. Unless it’s a tasteful representation of NOS as seen from the river in the final show scene since it seems that’s what they re going for.

I would prefer for them to keep the name Splash Mountain. It’s too iconic to get rid of and still works with the retheme. In the end I would like for them to look at “Splash Mountain” and it’s concept, aesthetic as the brand. New Orleans, bayous, critters, splashes, water etc... these are things that appeal to me regardless of the SOTS characters or it’s amazing soundtrack. Of course they won’t miss their chances to throw a combination of “Princess and the Frog”, “Tiana” “Mardi Gras” and a colon or two.

Guess I didn’t keep it that short.

 

[mickEblu]

Very happy to know that changing the flume layout would be too expensive. I love the ride layout, the pace, and the timing of the drops.

 

[DavidDL]

I’ve said my piece a million times so I’ll keep it short. I’m more or less at the acceptance phase now. What I hope is for them to keep the Elements that I love about Splash Mountain ( that are possible to keep) while adding the elements I like from PatF. I’ve said this before but a “1 for 1” retheme would work best as everything is laid out for them to succeed if they don’t overthink it. Just keep the focus on set pieces and keep as much of it and the AAs as possible. Ill take some modern bells and whistles if they re tasteful and no screens would be preferable unless it’s some background projection stuff. I hope the queue and first part of the ride pre first drop are still real world and not cartoonfied. Play an instrumental version of whatever song works.

I hope that that first drop into the mountain is where the fantasy begins. I just want the flow to still be there. The build up. The vignettes. The emotional arc. The songs changing after the drops as they do today. I don’t want a 10 minute brightly lit PatF version of IASW. The only things I know want for sure from PatF is for them to put a Louis AA bending over before the roller coaster drop in homage of Brer Bear, to keep Laughing Place scenes blacklit by using Ray/ fireflies bayou scene and to have that transition into the voodoo stuff ultimately leading to Dr Faciliers song playing during the lift hill. Oh ya, I want the ZADD lady to stay in the show final scene of course.

I would prefer for them to keep the name Splash Mountain. It’s too iconic to get rid of and still works with the retheme. In the end I would like for them to look at “Splash Mountain” and it’s concept, aesthetic as the brand. New Orleans, bayous, critters, splashes, water etc... these are things that appeal to me regardless of the SOTS characters or it’s amazing soundtrack. Of course they won’t miss their chances to throw a combination of “Princess and the Frog”, “Tiana” “Mardi Gras” and a colon or two.

Guess I didn’t keep it that short.

Right on. They absolutely have the enough source material and know how to re-theme this attraction proper. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to replace the SotS elements with PatF and keep it feeling like a classic, Disneyland experience.

The question is, will they? Will this end up like Mission: Breakout and Pixar Pier or will this end up being something special? This being Splash, I certainly hope they invest the time and money to do it right and not fast/on the cheap. I think it's totally fair for folks to be worried about them doing a poor job, though, given some of their more recent endeavors.

Just do this re-theme right, Disney. That's all we ask.

 

[mickEblu]

Right on. They absolutely have the enough source material and know how to re-theme this attraction proper. There's no reason they wouldn't be able to replace the SotS elements with PatF and keep it feeling like a classic, Disneyland experience.

The question is, will they? Will this end up like Mission: Breakout and Pixar Pier or will this end up being something special? This being Splash, I certainly hope they invest the time and money to do it right and not fast/on the cheap. I think it's totally fair for folks to be worried about them doing a poor job, though, given some of their more recent endeavors.

Just do this re-theme right, Disney. That's all we ask.

Well I would ask them not to do it all but yeah I agree. Everything is there for them to do a good job. Less is more here.

 

[J4546]

lol I like mission breakout, I think they did a great job retheming it to what it is. But I do understand some people miss the og ToT

 

[Brer Panther]

The Splash Mountain removal made me by default angry at Princess and the Frog forever. Not the movie's or creator's fault, it's just what I'll forever associate it with. Same goes for Guardian's of the Galaxy.

Depressingly, it's the same for me. I don't think it's a bad movie or anything, but I just can't think about The Princess and the Frog without thinking about the retheme and Disney and the pro-rethemers using it as a weapon against the Brers.

 

[el_super]

Depressingly, it's the same for me. I don't think it's a bad movie or anything, but I just can't think about The Princess and the Frog without thinking about the retheme and Disney and the pro-rethemers using it as a weapon against the Brers.

No one is doing this.

 

[Californian Elitist]

No one is doing this.

The main ones bringing up PatF are those who are not in favor of the re-theme and are searching for things about the film that will make the re-theme just as problematic as the original, SotS Splash Mountain.

 

[PiratesMansion]

Very happy to know that changing the flume layout would be too expensive. I love the ride layout, the pace, and the timing of the drops.

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to them switching out the boats so that I don't feel like I've been through a monsoon every time I get off the ride.

 

[mickEblu]

That said, I wouldn't be opposed to them switching out the boats so that I don't feel like I've been through a monsoon every time I get off the ride.

I’ve only been drenched once or twice out of my many times riding. Is this really a thing? Granted the rollercoaster drop gets my shoes a little wet.

 

[PiratesMansion]

I’ve only been drenched once or twice out of my many times riding. Is this really a thing? Granted the rollercoaster drop gets my shoes a little wet.

Yes. Maybe its just my size or I have the worst luck in the world, but I've gotten insanely drenched on DL's Splash, and only DL's Splash, every. single. time I've ridden as an adult.