Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[Professortango1]

I don’t have some agenda here, I think Splash was wonderfully done. You’re right that the AAs lost some movement over time (especially at the end there), but I’m talking about the original designs.

Look at the videos you posted. The Brer characters simply do not have the same degree of movement and animation as the America Sings AAs.

Unlike the America Sings critters, none of the Brer Bear AAs were made with articulated faces. The eyes don’t blink or move and the mouth doesn’t move. Bret Bear with the bees isn’t an animatronic at all.

Most of the Rabbit AAs are only animated at the head and one arm. Rabbit’s and Fox’s eyes are likewise static, and Fox’s mouth does the same rapid flapping open and close as the birds in the Tiki Room. The movement of the America Sings figures are far more fluid and lifelike, in my opinion.

To be clear, I think it’s fine—preferable, even—if some characters are less animated/articulated. I love the turtles or the frog fishing on the gator’s back with only his fishing hand moving.

TBA seems to do this well. Those A-1000 AAs are really amazing, but sometimes an animated figure rocking back and forth does what the scene needs.

I think the difference is that I can't think of a figure that had such limited movement simply rocking back and forth in a straightforward rhythmic pattern. The Brers might be limited in movement, but they were animated to have the movements they did have appear to be natural and varied. Even the laughing one in DL didn't simply rock back and forth but would do so in shutters as if he was laughing.

The band figures are playing music, but they were animated as if their musical parts were consistent rhythms and notes since the animals never vary their movement. It looks weird because it's unnatural. Even Chuck E Cheese had the band members change rhythms and move their heads side to side to vary it up.

 

[_caleb]

I think the difference is that I can't think of a figure that had such limited movement simply rocking back and forth in a straightforward rhythmic pattern. The Brers might be limited in movement, but they were animated to have the movements they did have appear to be natural and varied. Even the laughing one in DL didn't simply rock back and forth but would do so in shutters as if he was laughing.

The turtles and pop-up gopher in the Laughin' Place, the swarming bees, the spring-limbed Brer Bear were all limited movement. The caught Brer Rabbit, the dangling Brer Bear, and the frogs on turntables are pretty limited motion, too (even when they were new). I don't think the gator at the end (with Fox's tail in his mouth) was animated at all.

And again, I don't see any of these as a negative in any way. I think it's smart and good storytelling to mix limited-motion figures and highly-animated ones. I thought it was remarkable what they were able to do with limited motion figures on Splash. In some cases, they achieved the illusion of movement with things like Bear's springy limbs or the feathers on some of the dancing hens. I'd put the "shutter" laughing effect you mention in that category, and the electromagnetic beak of the bluebird, too.

I don't think Splash's critters would have been so well animated if they'd been designed for Splash.

The band figures are playing music, but they were animated as if their musical parts were consistent rhythms and notes since the animals never vary their movement. It looks weird because it's unnatural. Even Chuck E Cheese had the band members change rhythms and move their heads side to side to vary it up.

This seems fair. I'm just not sure it's a major shortcoming as some seem to be claiming. I don't think any scene should be scrutinized by its individual components, but rather as a single scene in the story.

For example, that first Luis AA (some here are saying he's just "flailing his arms") seems to be conducting and/or dancing with a pretty amazing lifelike motion while he explains what we're about to see (the band). Then band is shown, with limited and repetitive motion, serves to establish the party/music vibe as they mostly seem to sway to the beat. But then, immediately following, you have a pretty lifelike Tiana commenting on what we just saw (the band). To me, that seems like a fine way to use AAs.

I also think TBA's scenes are helped by their limited use of animation on screens to create a dynamic and deepening effect throughout, which folks are saying may not show well on video, but really comes together when seen in-person.

 

[Professortango1]

The turtles and pop-up gopher in the Laughin' Place, the swarming bees, the spring-limbed Brer Bear were all limited movement. The caught Brer Rabbit, the dangling Brer Bear, and the frogs on turntables are pretty limited motion, too (even when they were new). I don't think the gator at the end (with Fox's tail in his mouth) was animated at all.

And again, I don't see any of these as a negative in any way. I think it's smart and good storytelling to mix limited-motion figures and highly-animated ones. I thought it was remarkable what they were able to do with limited motion figures on Splash. In some cases, they achieved the illusion of movement with things like Bear's springy limbs or the feathers on some of the dancing hens. I'd put the "shutter" laughing effect you mention in that category, and the electromagnetic beak of the bluebird, too.

I don't think Splash's critters would have been so well animated if they'd been designed for Splash.

This seems fair. I'm just not sure it's a major shortcoming as some seem to be claiming. I don't think any scene should be scrutinized by its individual components, but rather as a single scene in the story.

For example, that first Luis AA (some here are saying he's just "flailing his arms") seems to be conducting and/or dancing with a pretty amazing lifelike motion while he explains what we're about to see (the band). Then band is shown, with limited and repetitive motion, serves to establish the party/music vibe as they mostly seem to sway to the beat. But then, immediately following, you have a pretty lifelike Tiana commenting on what we just saw (the band). To me, that seems like a fine way to use AAs.

I also think TBA's scenes are helped by their limited use of animation on screens to create a dynamic and deepening effect throughout, which folks are saying may not show well on video, but really comes together when seen in-person.

I wouldn't call Brer Gator an animatronic, rather a moving prop.

If TBA had more variety, limited figures and moving prop figures would work as it did with Splash.

Splash felt like Pirates was knocked up with a pretzel darkride's baby. It was quick and twisty and fantasy-based like a darkride, but had the scale and AA's and scenery of near-Pirates. Those AA's and their character was important to the design of this attraction. I'm certain Baxter and his team would have designed a different physical attraction had they not been able to use the American Sings AA's. The ride was designed with them in mind.

And now to eliminate that aspect of the ride, many are feeling that disconnect. The ride has inherit designs that speak to how guests were supposed to encounter the ride's stages and navigation and its missing a huge element.

Someone said it earlier and I kind of agree that the band feels like a Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display with characters independently rocking back and forth. Sure, they move a little faster and nicer and have better costuming since they aren't mass-produced, but they do feel like something below Disney's level for an attraction of this caliber.

 

[mickEblu]

I wouldn't call Brer Gator an animatronic, rather a moving prop.

If TBA had more variety, limited figures and moving prop figures would work as it did with Splash.

Splash felt like Pirates was knocked up with a pretzel darkride's baby. It was quick and twisty and fantasy-based like a darkride, but had the scale and AA's and scenery of near-Pirates. Those AA's and their character was important to the design of this attraction. I'm certain Baxter and his team would have designed a different physical attraction had they not been able to use the American Sings AA's. The ride was designed with them in mind.

And now to eliminate that aspect of the ride, many are feeling that disconnect. The ride has inherit designs that speak to how guests were supposed to encounter the ride's stages and navigation and its missing a huge element.

Someone said it earlier and I kind of agree that the band feels like a Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display with characters independently rocking back and forth. Sure, they move a little faster and nicer and have better costuming since they aren't mass-produced, but they do feel like something below Disney's level for an attraction of this caliber.

I agree with all this except your last line. I do not find the figures in TBA to be nicer or have better costuming than the AAs on Splash. Moving faster is also irrelevant. Rocking back n forth faster is not a point of advantage over the old AAs

EDIT: never mind, misread that. I agree with your whole post. Lol.

 

[Avastindy]

It's not a question of expectations, it's about storytelling.

In good animation, the most important elements of a scene are given more movement and detail in order to capture the audience's attention. Less important aspects of the scene should deliberately be presented in softer focus- less movement, less attention-grabbing.

Good imagineering does the same. When there's a lot going on with elements that should be in the background they can end up competing for the audience's attention, which can obscure key story beats. This is especially important for ride elements that the rider zooms past quickly.

How many pirates in PotC have hair on their legs? Why do the pop-up ghosts in Haunted Mansion not have bodies (or articulated limbs)?

The best attractions in the world are disciplined in their use of high-movement, high-detail AAs vs. more static and understated figures. Indiana Jones and the Temple of the Forbidden Eye, Splash Mountain, and most dark rides do this pretty well, in my opinion.

Reasonable people might disagree over whether Disney got the mixture right with TBA, but to equate an arbitrary minimum AA movement with standards of quality seems misguided.

To comment on something you said a while ago. “I’m good animation, the most important elements of a scene are given more movement and detail in order to capture the audience’s attention. Less important aspects of the scene should deliberately be presented in softer focus- less movement, less attention-grabbing.”

While that is true for animated cartoons, where you are deliberately showing audiences where to look, on an attraction where you can have multiple ride thrus, you can’t really tell an audience where to look. Unless it’s Haunted Mansion where the doombuggies rotate to each scene.

The one scene right after Tiana and Louis is with the critter band, there’s a band all by them selves. If they were just supporting roles, why give them a whole scene all to themselves?? Shouldn’t they have more movements since they are now upgraded to a major role?? That’s where I’m confused on the whole “supporting” and “major” roles.

 

[Parteecia]

I agree with all this except your last line. I do not find the figures in TBA to be nicer or have better costuming than the AAs on Splash. Moving faster is also irrelevant. Rocking back n forth faster is not a point of advantage over the old AAs

I think he was comparing to Home D, not Splash.

 

[mickEblu]

I think he was comparing to Home D, not Splash.

You are right. I misread that.

 

[_caleb]

Someone said it earlier and I kind of agree that the band feels like a Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display with characters independently rocking back and forth. Sure, they move a little faster and nicer and have better costuming since they aren't mass-produced, but they do feel like something below Disney's level for an attraction of this caliber.

I'd love to see the Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display characters that feel like this:

I agree with all this except your last line. I do not find the figures in TBA to be nicer or have better costuming than the AAs on Splash. Moving faster is also irrelevant. Rocking back n forth faster is not a point of advantage over the old AAs

Not faster, but maybe more fluid. With electric AAs, the movement acceleration/deceleration is variable, which improves on the jerkiness of old-fashioned AAs. Notice how the timing of the drummers' arms differs between left and right? I think this is sufficient to provide the illusion of playing the drums.

But these AA criticism of TBA seems nitpickey to me. Splash was awesome and benefitted from the America Sings figures. TBA was designed without those, and WDI went with these limited motion electric figures. We're not supposed to get to know these guys the way we are Louis, Tiana, and Mama Odie, so on the whole I think these scenes capture the movement and rhythm of the band and wouldn't benefit from blinking/moving eyes or fluttering ears or whatever.

 

[mickEblu]

I'd love to see the Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display characters that feel like this:View attachment 793733

Not faster, but maybe more fluid. With electric AAs, the movement acceleration/deceleration is variable, which improves on the jerkiness of old-fashioned AAs. Notice how the timing of the drummers' arms differs between left and right? I think this is sufficient to provide the illusion of playing the drums.

But these AA criticism of TBA seems nitpickey to me. Splash was awesome and benefitted from the America Sings figures. TBA was designed without those, and WDI went with these limited motion electric figures. We're not supposed to get to know these guys the way we are Louis, Tiana, and Mama Odie, so on the whole I think these scenes capture the movement and rhythm of the band and wouldn't benefit from blinking/moving eyes or fluttering ears or whatever.
View attachment 793737

But you keep trying to steer the conversation towards the 12 or so quality electric AAs on TBA. The rest are figures that I don’t even think qualify as AAs. Just to be clear when you refer to electric AAs are you referring to the Tiana, Louis and Odie AAs or the figures too?

Splash has 70 + actual AAs that did more than rock back n forth + moving figures/ props.

Vs

TBA has 12-ish top of the line AAs and a couple dozen limited motion figures

I know which of the two I’d rather have. It doesn’t matter that we don’t know the new critters. They are still their focal point of those scenes and they just are not up to par.

But then not only are there far fewer quality AAs on TBA but they are staged so poorly in the “find the band” section. Here’s Tiana and Louis standing next to a bunch of small critters who happen to already be assembled and are playing the middle of a dark bayou with nothing else around for no damn reason over and over again. Splash was staged in a way that felt much more organic with many more props that made the set feel like a real little world you were passing through.

Lastly, you keep bringing up that Splash benefited from the America Sings AAs which is true but why does it matter? The end result is the end result and we have to compare that. Doesn’t matter how we got there. TBA could have benefited from the America Sings AAs as well but they chose not to.

 

[Professortango1]

I'd love to see the Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display characters that feel like this:View attachment 793733

Disney made a bunch of these at a slightly higher quality. What's sad, is many of these limited animated toys change their limited movement/rhythm to match the music while Disney's keep on trucking on the same beats so it doesn't feel like they are "playing" these sounds we are hearing.

 

[mickEblu]

Also can we talk about the loss in charm factor? To end up with a net loss of dozens of charming anthropomorphic animals all singing, dancing, playing, doing different activities and staged well. For a couple dozen non anthropomorphic animal figures and some high end human being AAs minus Louis who doesn’t even play his trumpet once lol. You can’t make this stuff up. Just an L in nearly everyday category.

 

[Professortango1]

I'd love to see the Home Depot Christmas or Halloween display characters that feel like this:
View attachment 793737

Home Depot Grinch almost achieves the same range of motion as the bear blowing the leaves.

This all reminds me of a wild place called "The Orange Show" in Texas. The place was built by a sad man who wanted to build the next Disneyland, so he built an art complex out of literal junk and themed it to the wonder of the Orange. His idea for a big show was putting a bunch of roboticized toys, like the barking/flipping dog and other such common sights, in a pit/arena and just having a bunch of them going wild.

Disney did the upscale of this with a bunch of nicely costumed figures with movements and designs not that far removed from Spirit/Home Depot decor and simply put a group of them together to look like a band. I see the same effect done when I tour the nicer neighborhoods in the IE during Christmas time. "Oh cute, they bought a bunch of those yard ornaments and made them into a little band. Cute."

 

[Parteecia]

Disney made a bunch of these at a slightly higher quality. What's sad, is many of these limited animated toys change their limited movement/rhythm to match the music while Disney's keep on trucking on the same beats so it doesn't feel like they are "playing" these sounds we are hearing.

Trombone Grinch was impressive. The same cannot be said for Scooby with worms.

 

[_caleb]

But you keep trying to steer the conversation towards the 12 or so quality electric AAs on TBA. The rest are figures that I don’t even think qualify as AAs. Just to be clear when you refer to electric AAs are you referring to the Tiana, Louis and Odie AAs or the figures too?

I'm not trying to steer the conversation. I'm trying to compare as we evaluate, is all.

All of the AAs in TBA, limited-motion and A1000, are electric and benefit from the improved technology of electric motors and digital programming. The limited-motion ones have fewer points of articulation--sometimes only one or two.

Splash has 70 + actual AAs that did more than rock back n forth + moving figures/ props.

Vs

TBA has 12-ish top of the line AAs and a couple dozen limited motion figures

You seem to be comparing as though there were only two types: "actual AAs" OR "back and forth + moving figures/props." But Splash had many AAs, and they ranged from no-articulation to many points of articulation.

TBA likewise has a range of types, from the A-1000 (which you number at 12-ish), down to the frogs in the shrinking scenes, and the back-and-forth rocking ones in the band.

I know which of the two I’d rather have. It doesn’t matter that we don’t know the new critters. They are still their focal point of those scenes and they just are not up to par.

This seems like a subjective, but fair conclusion.

Lastly, you keep bringing up that Splash benefited from the America Sings AAs which is true but why does it matter? The end result is the end result and we have to compare that. Doesn’t matter how we got there. TBA could have benefited from the America Sings AAs as well but they chose not too.

I keep bringing them up because I think they are very special, and I see that's how some are evaluating TBA ("TBA's critters aren't Splash-level!"). But in some sense, I think those AAs were wasted on Splash because (except when there was a log jam), the blinking eyes weren't noticed by guests.

If no blinking on critters is the price to pay to have another centerpiece A-1000 that looks truly alive, that seems like fair trade-off to me. Now, whether those A-1000 have been utilized to their fullest is another question.

 

[EagleScout610]

I keep bringing them up because I think they are very special, and I see that's how some are evaluating TBA ("TBA's critters aren't Splash-level!"). But in some sense, I think those AAs were wasted on Splash because (except when there was a log jam), the blinking eyes weren't noticed by guests.

If no blinking on critters is the price to pay to have another centerpiece A-1000 that looks truly alive, that seems like fair trade-off to me. Now, whether those A-1000 have been utilized to their fullest is another question.

Because Splash was so rich with detail and animation that you didn't need to notice that Br'er Fox and Br'er Rabbit's eyes were static. The figures on Tiana's are like "Alright this is all you've got to look at for the next stretch of flume so soak 'em in".

 

[Brer Oswald]

TBA uses highly-articulated A-1000 AAs for its main characters, but less-articulated models for the critters, which have limited motion. It seems obvious to me that from a storytelling perspective, you'd want to use highly-animated figures for whatever part of the scene you want to be the focus of attention and less articulated figures for those parts of the scene that are more like support, mood-setting, or background elements of the scene.

I mean, it makes sense that they'd put less detail into scenes that audiences are zooming past vs. scenes the audience has more time to take in. Splash was blessed to have inherited its "supporting" characters from the America Sings show, so they probably had a degree of animation that may have been unnecessary to the storytelling.

Looking back at Splash, I find it odd that the Brer figures were less animated than those in its "supporting" cast. Their eyes didn't move, and their mouths were poorly-synced with the dialog. While TBA's supporting cast do seem to feature less movement, its main characters are pretty lifelike.

Brer Rabbit’s eyes moved, blinked, and his mouth was perfectly synched with the audio.

 

[Brer Oswald]

I don't think Splash's critters would have been so well animated if they'd been designed for Splash.

The ones in Florida and Tokyo were newly designed animatronics for Splash. They reused similar character designs from America Sings, but they also weren’t one to one copies. Many were posed quite differently as well, such as the Geese that were fishing in Florida (they did not fish in California because they weren’t deigned to do so in America Sings).

 

[_caleb]

Brer Rabbit’s eyes moved, blinked, and his mouth was perfectly synched with the audio.

So you've said. Obviously some of the Rabbit AAs were more animated than others. Which one had the blinking eyes and perfectly synched mouth? If I remember correctly, you have the Splash scenes memorized.

I've gone back and looked at older videos (since we all know things fell into disrepair toward the end there), but most of them don't show this.

 

[mickEblu]

The ones in Florida and Tokyo were newly designed animatronics for Splash. They reused similar character designs from America Sings, but they also weren’t one to one copies. Many were posed quite differently as well, such as the Geese that were fishing in Florida (they did not fish in California because they weren’t deigned to do so in America Sings).

Great point in regards to the Florida/ Tokyo AAs but why does it matter how they got there? The point is they there were there and the ride was better for it. I guess he’s trying to say you can’t fault TBA for not having as many high quality animatronics. Your point about the Florida AAs shuts that down pretty quick but I’m left wondering why we should care?

 

[EagleScout610]

So you've said. Obviously some of the Rabbit AAs were more animated than others. Which one had the blinking eyes and perfectly synched mouth?

All of them. Every Splash figure was in sync with the audio when fully working. Even Br'er Bear would move his head to simulate his laughing or yelling in pain.