Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion

[SuddenStorm]

We're seeing an awful lot of and from Baxter for someone supposedly officially divorced from the project. He's certainly not publicly disavowing himself from it on social media.

Does Tony have any social media? As far as I know he has no public online presence.

Unless there's a more reliable source, this smells of someone not happy with the overlay engaging in a whisper campaign.

Nothing Disney has shared about this feels like a Baxter attraction.

 

[Californian Elitist]

Tony Baxter doesn’t need to be attached to this project for it to be good.

We shall see.

 

[MisterPenguin]

Nothing Disney has shared about this feels like a Baxter attraction.

He was a consultant, not the lead imagineer.

And even if he were the lead, people can create projects with a varied styles, or is Baxter a one-trick pony?

 

[TP2000]

Her background is as a person of limited means. Her family is poor.

Once again, the movie focuses on wealth and power disparity free from any racial issues. If other themes of race were present, I'd support your interpretation, however Disney chose to not have any characters' racial identity inform their actions and character nor the way the other characters and society interacted with them. If this indeed is the Fenners being racist, it is the sole moment in the entire film. OR, its another moment that plays into the very present themes of perception of wealth and power.

This is a perfect summary of this film. You are absolutely correct.

The way they wrote and staged the Tiana movie was in such a way that her race was never the issue, it was all about her class designation.

All of your succinct summaries and examples of how race was handled, or actually not handled, in the movie are spot on. And anyone who owns the DVD or rents it online can see for themselves that you aren't making this up. It's actually how the Princess and The Frog movie is handled and how the source material for Tiana's Bayou Adventure is laid out for Imagineers to use for the ride retheme.

I'm amused at how a few folks here don't want to admit how correct you are, when the evidence is clear as day and available on DVD and Blu-Ray and Disney+ 4k streaming. But, such is life.

 

[TP2000]

Tony Baxter doesn’t need to be attached to this project for it to be good.

We shall see.

I'm actually more concerned that the lead Imagineer for this Tiana's Bayou Adventure project started their career as an accountant, and has apparently had no formal training in art or design. Looking at her own Linkedin page and WDI career, after earning an accounting degree and starting in accounting for other firms, she eventually moved to WDI as an accountant and evolved from WDI accounting then to WDI finance management then to WDI project management and then last year she was christened a "Executive Creative Producer" and was put in charge of re-theming a log ride?

The only college degree she holds, according to her LinkedIn, is a Bachelors in Accounting from Cal State Northridge (Go Matadors!) She has no formal training in arts or design or engineering, apparently. Or at least none she wants us to know about.

I don't get that career progression. Do you?

I suppose there could be some licensed accountant staring at financial spreadsheets all day who longs to draw and paint and create and make robot chickens sing. But it seems unlikely. How many other accountants has WDI moved into executive creative roles, I wonder?

 

[LittleBuford]

I don't get that career progression. Do you?

You can read all about it here:

Meet Charita Carter, The First African-American Woman Executive Producer Of Walt Disney Imagineering

Before embarking on the pathway to an Imagineering career, Carter served as a senior accountant.

www.forbes.com

 

[TP2000]

You can read all about it here:

Meet Charita Carter, The First African-American Woman Executive Producer Of Walt Disney Imagineering

Before embarking on the pathway to an Imagineering career, Carter served as a senior accountant.

www.forbes.com

I subscribe to Forbes. I vaguely remember reading that puff piece on her last year when it came out. I remember it being a bit inaccurate with its puffery, like downplaying the role Kevin Rafferty had with creating and producing Mickey's Runaway Railway and saying instead that "She also produced the critically-acclaimed Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway..."

But such is the state of modern "journalism" today. Much of it is inaccurate, or misleading, or purposely ignores facts to shill a narrative.

That said... I still don't get the career progression from accountant to lead Imagineer on an E Ticket attraction for both coasts.

I can't think of any of the key Imagineers who created the E Tickets of the last 60 years who started as accountants. Can you?

 

[LittleBuford]

I subscribe to Forbes. I vaguely remember reading that puff piece on her last year when it came out. I remember it being a bit inaccurate with its puffery, like downplaying the role Kevin Rafferty had with creating and producing Mickey's Runaway Railway and saying instead that "She also produced the critically-acclaimed Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway..."

But such is the state of modern "journalism" today. Much of it is inaccurate, or misleading, or purposely ignores facts to shill a narrative.

That said... I still don't get the career progression from accountant to lead Imagineer on an E Ticket attraction for both coasts.

I can't think of any of the key Imagineers who created the E Tickets of the last 60 years who started as accountants. Can you?

The piece is largely an interview, with Carter describing her career progression—which she herself acknowledges as surprising—in her own words. You should reread it if you’re genuinely interested. Or perhaps you were merely being rhetorical in your earlier post.

 

[TP2000]

The piece is largely an interview, with Carter describing her career progression—which she herself acknowledges as surprising—in her own words. You should reread it if you’re genuinely interested. Or perhaps you were merely being rhetorical in your earlier post.

I scanned it again, and then I stopped at the part where "She also produced the critically-acclaimed Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway" because I know for a personally confirmed fact that Kevin Rafferty created and produced that attraction for both coasts and had been working on it since the mid 2010's. Not to say her team didn't have an impact on the ride's development or tech, but she wasn't the producer of that ride. Mr. Rafferty was. I will assume that was Forbes' own mistake, an example of today's sloppy journalism, and that she didn't willfully misrepresent herself and her resume' to the Forbes writer.

And then I remembered that Forbes article was basically a puff piece designed to please Disney.

No harm there, industries do that all the time in trade publications, and likely always will.

But I still can't think of any Imagineer that was ever publicly touted in the media who started their career as an accountant. Imagineers were always creative types; designers, artists, engineers, musicians, architects, etc.

I also still can't think of any trained accountant that ever produced a ride for a Disney theme park. Can you?

 

[SuddenStorm]

I'm actually more concerned that the lead Imagineer for this Tiana's Bayou Adventure project started their career as an accountant, and has apparently had no formal training in art or design. Looking at her own Linkedin page and WDI career, after earning an accounting degree and starting in accounting for other firms, she eventually moved to WDI as an accountant and evolved from WDI accounting then to WDI finance management then to WDI project management and then last year she was christened a "Executive Creative Producer" and was put in charge of re-theming a log ride?

The only college degree she holds, according to her LinkedIn, is a Bachelors in Accounting from Cal State Northridge (Go Matadors!) She has no formal training in arts or design or engineering, apparently. Or at least none she wants us to know about.

I don't get that career progression. Do you?

I suppose there could be some licensed accountant staring at financial spreadsheets all day who longs to draw and paint and create and make robot chickens sing. But it seems unlikely. How many other accountants has WDI moved into executive creative roles, I wonder?

It becomes only more terrifying when we consider the resumes and lives of Baxter and Gordon. Lifelong Disneyland fans and both had a history developing attractions/theme park lands before creating Splash.

But I doubt there's been very many people with such a genuine love for the place like Baxter and Gordon- but who also had such a thorough understanding of why Disneyland worked as well as it did.

In the case of Baxter, not many could lead a redo of Walt Disney's Fantasyland and have it mostly meet expectations (with the only loss being the Pirate Ship).

 

[LittleBuford]

I scanned it again, and then I stopped at the part where "She also produced the critically-acclaimed Mickey and Minnie's Runaway Railway" because I know for a personally confirmed fact that Kevin Rafferty created and produced that attraction for both coasts and had been working on it since the mid 2010's. Not to say her team didn't have an impact on the ride's development or tech, but she wasn't the producer of that ride. Mr. Rafferty was.

And then I remembered that Forbes article was basically a puff piece designed to please Disney.

No harm there, industries do that all the time in trade publications, and likely always will.

But I still can't think of any Imagineer that was ever publicly touted in the media who started their career as an accountant. Imagineers were always creative types; designers, artists, engineers, musicians, etc.

I can't think of any trained accountant that ever produced a ride for a Disney theme park. Can you?

Then you were—and are—being merely rhetorical. Got it.

As for Rafferty, I suppose he too must be lying about Carter in the following interview:

“I also have to say Charita Carter … the great Charita Carter, who was the producer of Mickey & Minnie’s Runaway Railway. I didn’t really work with her on an attraction or related things over the years, until our experience on Mickey & Minnie’s.​

“She’s a great producer and a great friend and a great colleague who has great instincts and was another big influence on my career.”​

​

Kevin Rafferty Pumps the Brakes on His Illustrious Imagineer Career

On April 1, Kevin Rafferty – one of the most prolific members of Walt Disney Imagineering – pumped the brakes on his daily trek, as well as his heralded Disney career, leaving behind a legacy that few, if any, will ever match.

allears.net

 

[TP2000]

Then you were—and are—being merely rhetorical. Got it.

As for Rafferty, I suppose he too must be lying about Carter in the following interview:

“I also have to say Charita Carter … the great Charita Carter, who was the producer of Mickey & Minnie’s Runaway Railway. I didn’t really work with her on an attraction or related things over the years, until our experience on Mickey & Minnie’s.​

“She’s a great producer and a great friend and a great colleague who has great instincts and was another big influence on my career.”​

​

Kevin Rafferty Pumps the Brakes on His Illustrious Imagineer Career

On April 1, Kevin Rafferty – one of the most prolific members of Walt Disney Imagineering – pumped the brakes on his daily trek, as well as his heralded Disney career, leaving behind a legacy that few, if any, will ever match.

allears.net

Then this log ride redo should turn out great. Sunshine and blue sky, guaranteed.

But if so, why do they keep telling us about stuff in the line that mentions WWI and non-profit dressmaking instead of the actual ride?

 

[TP2000]

It becomes only more terrifying when we consider the resumes and lives of Baxter and Gordon. Lifelong Disneyland fans and both had a history developing attractions/theme park lands before creating Splash.

But I doubt there's been very many people with such a genuine love for the place like Baxter and Gordon- but who also had such a thorough understanding of why Disneyland worked as well as it did.

There will likely never be another generation like them, I'm afraid.

In the case of Baxter, not many could lead a redo of Walt Disney's Fantasyland and have it mostly meet expectations (with the only loss being the Pirate Ship).

I forget where I read it (probably not Forbes), but there was an interview with Baxter where he talked about the pirate ship. They had every intention of saving it for New Fantasyland '83, and moving it to a new location northeast of Storybookland where the parade bypass walkway got built for Light Magic in '97. They had dismantled a lot of the rigging and trimmings, but the when the crane went to pick up the main ship it shattered into a million wood-rotted pieces and was unsalvageable. They didn't have the money to rebuild, so it just got forgotten.

To this day I always feel a little bit guilty for buying my preferred Bumblebee tuna instead of Chicken-of-the-Sea.

 

[SuddenStorm]

There will likely never be another generation like them, I'm afraid.

In a way, it's almost lucky DCA tanked initially, as it took the spotlight off of Disneyland and saved it from major changes until after Disney dumped billions trying to fix DCA.

I forget where I read it (probably not Forbes), but there was an interview with Baxter where he talked about the pirate ship. They had every intention of saving it for New Fantasyland '83, and moving it to a new location northeast of Storybookland where the parade bypass walkway got built for Light Magic in '97. They had dismantled a lot of the rigging and trimmings, but the when the crane went to pick up the main ship it shattered into a million wood-rotted pieces and was unsalvageable. They didn't have the money to rebuild, so it just got forgotten.

To this day I always feel a little bit guilty for buying my preferred Bumblebee tuna instead of Chicken-of-the-Sea.

Yes, this is a story he tells- and that they recreated the original ship over at Disneyland Paris. And, some of the fixtures of the boat were used in Peter Pan's Flight.

But I would hate to see what they'd do to Fantasyland if it were redone today. Disney hasn't shown they're able to capture that kind of charm in years. For all of it's quirks, the character design in Splash was top notch (thanks to reusing Marc Davis designs), and the sets were beautifully constructed. The entire facade was a work of art- it managed to look natural enough to be believable but also distinct and profound. WDI has their work cut out trying to top that.

 

[BrerFoxesBayouAdventure]

But I would hate to see what they'd do to Fantasyland if it were redone today. Disney hasn't shown they're able to capture that kind of charm in years. For all of it's quirks, the character design in Splash was top notch (thanks to reusing Marc Davis designs), and the sets were beautifully constructed. The entire facade was a work of art- it managed to look natural enough to be believable but also distinct and profound. WDI has their work cut out trying to top that.

We got hints of it when New Fantasyland was built and they tore out Scary Adventures for....a meet and greet space.

 

[Communicora]

Yes, agreed, especially your last sentence. I don’t see the correlation between putting in extra details and a terrible attraction here.

We’ve been praising all the details in MMRR for the last few months, mind you, details that didn’t need to be included.

But they didn't share blog posts and videos focusing on these details rather than glimpses of the actual ride a year ahead of its opening. The details are fun to ponder after you've experienced an entertaining ride.

The current generation of Imagineers have things backward. They focus on details and back story instead of creating a fun attraction. We see this over and over again. Maybe it's because we don't have as many Imagineers coming with experience in film. Now it's all people who grew up wanting to become an Imagineer (outlier accountant excepted). I blame those Discovery channel documentaries we all obsessively watched back in the day. Haha!

I'm still trying to keep an open mind about it, but the more they release, the less excited I am. At least the queue music will be good.

 

[Californian Elitist]

But they didn't share blog posts and videos focusing on these details rather than glimpses of the actual ride a year ahead of its opening. The details are fun to ponder after you've experienced an entertaining ride.

The current generation of Imagineers have things backward. They focus on details and back story instead of creating a fun attraction. We see this over and over again. Maybe it's because we don't have as many Imagineers coming with experience in film. Now it's all people who grew up wanting to become an Imagineer (outlier accountant excepted). I blame those Discovery channel documentaries we all obsessively watched back in the day. Haha!

I'm still trying to keep an open mind about it, but the more they release, the less excited I am. At least the queue music will be good.

Just to make sure I understand you, because the plethora of details in MMRR weren’t shared in blog posts, they are acceptable? The details being put into TBA aren’t acceptable because they are being shared before the attraction opens. Is that what you’re saying?

I would argue that Disney’s different approach with this attraction clearly stems from how it came to be. They are trying to prove themselves by sharing that they’re doing their homework and putting effort into the ride that is replacing the one that is based on a racist Disney movie, but was iconic and a mega fan attraction. The removal of Splash is a very big deal, and they know this. This isn’t like the removal of ToT. To me, it’s very obvious what they’re trying to accomplish and do by sharing tidbits. Instead of getting upset/worked up/angry/whatever other negative feeling, I’m going to sit back and see if they can and will prove themselves with Tiana and fix the mistake of using SotS for inspiration for its predecessor. What they’ve shared so far is not personally concerning, but I’m aware it’s different for many others.

Disneyland fans get stuck on the past waaaayyyyy too much. I used to do this myself. The past is gone. Things have changed and they will most likely never go back to the way they were. Yes, the original way Imagineers designed and went about things was arguably better. But, many of them are gone now and that way of going about creating new attractions is now gone. It hasn’t been the same for many, many years. It’s the same thing with the current conversation about Tony Baxter. I don’t understand why some fans are/were banking on him to be heavily involved in this attraction when he retired a decade ago. He’s been a consultant, but the man is no longer doing what he used to do. He is retired.

Many Disneyland fans get caught in this never-ending cycle of wishing for the way things were done before, even wishing for blog posts to contain certain information, over and over and over again, and yet will STILL buy tickets and passes and go to the parks. Fans who do this will NEVER be satisfied, but, somehow, make their way down Main Street every year, sometimes multiple times per year. If you’re still going to go to the parks regardless, let this stuff go, for the love of God. What is the point of being upset with Disney’s choices, and rightfully so (sometimes), if you’re still going to plan to walk through the gates over and over again? And we all know Disney is well aware of this behavior. This is partially why they don’t care, because they know even the biggest traditionalist will still hand over their money. Disneyland fans talk, but can’t walk.

If you’re not going to walk, then why talk so much, especially if you know things aren’t going to change? Disneyland will continue to make big changes as time passes on. You either mentally prepare for whatever changes come our way, understand that you can’t do anything about them, enjoy yourself regardless and still go, or you choose to continue wishing for something that will never be and get stuck in the same cycle of never-ending complaining…and yet, still go (that option makes no sense to me, personally).

This isn’t directed towards you, by the way.

One more thing, how can you be sure the queue music will be good if you haven’t heard it yet?

 

[BrerFoxesBayouAdventure]

I really hope the queue loop is longer than 20 minutes.

 

[Communicora]

One more thing, how can you be sure the queue music will be good if you haven’t heard it yet?

I don't have time to write a thoughtful reply to your post right now, but I wanted to respond to this bit. They are working with Terence Blanchard. His film scores are gorgeous and he was also involved with the original film. He is the perfect person to handle the queue music. I'm genuinely excited about this bit of news.

 

[Californian Elitist]

I don't have time to write a thoughtful reply to your post right now, but I wanted to respond to this bit. They are working with Terence Blanchard. His film scores are gorgeous and he was also involved with the original film. He is the perfect person to handle the queue music. I'm genuinely excited about this bit of news.

Okay.