-
Welcome to the WDWMAGIC.COM Forums!
Please take a look around, and feel free to sign up and join the community.
Tiana's Bayou Adventure: Disneyland Watch & Discussion
- Thread starter Californian Elitist
- Start date
Midwest Elitist
Well-Known Member
Turkey in the Straw seems more like carnival music and frantic, whereas Zip is more "uplifting" and slow.
zip-a-duden-duden-duden zip-a-duden-day
zip-a-dee-doo-da, zip-a-dee-ay
Lyrics close, so inspired is a possibility. The actual song structure and score is completely different.
zip-a-duden-duden-duden zip-a-duden-day
zip-a-dee-doo-da, zip-a-dee-ay
Lyrics close, so inspired is a possibility. The actual song structure and score is completely different.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
His entire appearance is rooted in minstrelsy, as are most cartoons until rather recently, unfortunately.
You are allowed to move forward with the good of the world without always being haunted and looking for negative connections. You can be aware of them and separate intentions.
Almost all of our modern medicine and surgery now comes from terrible concentration camp roots.
We can use the knowledge without being evil.
Almost all of our modern medicine and surgery now comes from terrible concentration camp roots.
We can use the knowledge without being evil.
Practical Pig
Well-Known Member
It seems to me that Zip a Dee Doo Dah shares a parallel relationship to its source of inspiration, Zip C***, as Splash Mountain does with its source of inspiration, Song of the South. Both reflect the strongest, bounciest elements of their root sources while surgically removing the racism of the originals. I've said long ago here that I understand why this retheme is happening in today's climate, but neither song nor ride should need to be cancelled.
_caleb
Well-Known Member
I know that a WDW fan message board probably isn’t the place for an in-depth discussion of the subject, but there has been a LOT of academic research and analysis of issues of race in Song of the South (the film), its source material (Joel Chandler Harris’ “Uncle Remus” stories), JCH’s source material (African American folk tales), and Disney’s interpretation of the Br’er characters.
One excellent academic journal article I’ve come across in my dissertation research: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24898783. The author explores a couple things relevent to recent discussion in this thread:
Joel Chandler Harris appropriated the original stories. He—a pro-slavery White man—wrote in an exaggerated caricature of African American Vernacular English designed to emphasize the exotic otherness of his Black protagonist. When he wrote “Br’er,” he was making fun of Black people. Harris wrote for White families to read these tales to their children, and he tried to write the dialog such that parents could read it in ”the black accent“ (hence, “Br’er”). The author of the essay calls it “linguistic blackface.”
That was Walt’s source material for the film we all agree was terrible. And while Disney tried to extract the characters from the film and redeeming them for the ride, they do seem to retain the roots of minstrelsy and caricature of enslaved people.
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah was an attempt to remediate “Zip-” and “Turkey in the Straw.” In the process, they created an iconic song that people love. But why go to a minstrel anthem for source material for a sound trask of a film set on a plantation? Disney went on to make the song into a classic—not only a theme for Splash Mountain, but for the Parks. Nevertheless, YouTube and clickbait articles won’t let people forget the song’s relationship to racist entertainment of the past.
This does not mean that the ride (or anyone who love it or its characters) or the song is racist! It just means that these things will always have some connection to the source material. I believe this is whey Disney has decided not to promote the film, and not to further try to remediate the characters.
For anyone interested in further reading on Harris, I recommend Hugh Keenan’s chapter, “Joel Chandler Harris and the Legitimacy of the Reteller of Folktales” in the 1992 book, Sitting at the Feet of the Past: Retelling the North American Folktale for Children. For more about Song of the South, I’d point you to Disney’s Most Notorious Film, by Jason Sperb from Oklahoma State University.
One excellent academic journal article I’ve come across in my dissertation research: https://www.jstor.org/stable/24898783. The author explores a couple things relevent to recent discussion in this thread:
Joel Chandler Harris appropriated the original stories. He—a pro-slavery White man—wrote in an exaggerated caricature of African American Vernacular English designed to emphasize the exotic otherness of his Black protagonist. When he wrote “Br’er,” he was making fun of Black people. Harris wrote for White families to read these tales to their children, and he tried to write the dialog such that parents could read it in ”the black accent“ (hence, “Br’er”). The author of the essay calls it “linguistic blackface.”
That was Walt’s source material for the film we all agree was terrible. And while Disney tried to extract the characters from the film and redeeming them for the ride, they do seem to retain the roots of minstrelsy and caricature of enslaved people.
Zip-a-dee-doo-dah was an attempt to remediate “Zip-” and “Turkey in the Straw.” In the process, they created an iconic song that people love. But why go to a minstrel anthem for source material for a sound trask of a film set on a plantation? Disney went on to make the song into a classic—not only a theme for Splash Mountain, but for the Parks. Nevertheless, YouTube and clickbait articles won’t let people forget the song’s relationship to racist entertainment of the past.
This does not mean that the ride (or anyone who love it or its characters) or the song is racist! It just means that these things will always have some connection to the source material. I believe this is whey Disney has decided not to promote the film, and not to further try to remediate the characters.
For anyone interested in further reading on Harris, I recommend Hugh Keenan’s chapter, “Joel Chandler Harris and the Legitimacy of the Reteller of Folktales” in the 1992 book, Sitting at the Feet of the Past: Retelling the North American Folktale for Children. For more about Song of the South, I’d point you to Disney’s Most Notorious Film, by Jason Sperb from Oklahoma State University.
Midwest Elitist
Well-Known Member
If I recall though, Harris was anti-slavery and was praised by many prominent black abolitionists at the time such as Booker T Washington. Everything else in these academic articles are just speculation. Also, I only agree SotS as being a garbage movie for the plot and development, not that it is racist (how dare I as a progressive! D: ).
Look, I understand the importance of academic research, I did some myself at university. But I honestly don't understand why in certain fields they basically go "I think this is the case, this is how it could be, therefore it is". It's so cringe. We don't fully know the intentions of the original writers anyways.
_caleb
Well-Known Member
Though he was a champion of Black education and suffrage, Harris was not an abolitionist. He was too poor to own slaves, but he idealized plantation life and The best insights into his beliefs can be found in his Saturday Eventing Post articles:
“And if there were ever human relations that were romantic and picturesque they were found on the old plantation in the days of slavery.” —“The Negro as the South Sees Him,” 1904
He was indeed praised by Booker T. Washington, but that was during reconstruction and because Harris promoted a separate-but-equal approach to education.
Academic research in peer-reviewed academic journals is more than speculation and personal opinions. History, ethnography, and literary studies involves real work and avoids speculation about an author’s intentions.
BTW, here’s another well-researched article by a Black scholar who is a fan of Joel Chandler Harris.
Brer Panther
Well-Known Member
This is the first I'm hearing that Joel Chandler Harris supported slavery. Wasn't his reasoning for writing down the stories and publishing them that he didn't want them to be forgotten? Or am I just mis-remembering?
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
There has been a lot of academic research done by BIPOC researchers and scholars. I am not a scholarship, but I have read the vast majority of these pieces and contributed articles to journals about it before. I am really glad you mentioned that so much out there, including a lot of "articles" falls under the realm to clickbait. My advice to folks is to focus on Black and Native voiced, because people like J@son Sp3,rb are still trying to capitalize on Black and Indigenous pain for their own gain.
Last edited:
jasminethecat
Well-Known Member
I profess to know a lot of things, but being a linguistics expert is not one of them. Try googling "zip a dee doo dah meaning" and the top result is from lexico which is an Oxford dictionary-powered website. But what do they know compared to y'all, amiright? I am sure it's a joint conspiracy between Disney and the Oxford Dictionary and it's extremely shady, not to mention 100% driven by profits and would support Nazi's if it had the chance to make a dollar more! Who knows what motives they might have? I mean, I haven't actually listened to it myself, but my heart tells me this is REALLY BAD.
Definition of zip-a-dee-doo-dah in English:
zip-a-dee-doo-dah
Pronunciation /ˌzɪpədɪˈduːdɑː/
exclamation
informal US- Expressing delight, excitement, elation, etc. Now often ironic.
First used as the title and refrain of a song featured in the Walt Disney film, Song of the South. The lyrics are based on those of the minstrel song Zip C o o n, and represent the speech of the African-American character Uncle Remus.
adjective
informal US- Causing or characterized by delight, excitement, elation, etc.; wonderful, fantastic, great. Now often ironic.
Origin
1940s. An arbitrary formation, based on the refrain from the minstrel song Zip C o o n.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
He later became an abolishionist and advocated for African American literacy, but he was largely paternalistic. The non-story parts of the Uncle Remus books are very questionable. Harris also saw a connection with Black people because of his own marginalized background, which is not even comparable and honestly wholly inappropriate. I am.glad his former home is now an oral literature preservation center for Black and Native people.
Booker T. Washington was the exact opposite of an abolitionist. He encouraged black people to NOT protest and fight for their freedoms and to essentially wait for their suffering to end naturally over time. He also championed blacks going to trade school over a university. There’s a reason why white people loved Booker T. Washington. A Classic Uncle Tom in his day, and considering that Remus is most definitely an Uncle Tom, if Washington enjoyed the Remus stories, then it makes sense. W.E.B. Du Bois was a prominent abolitionist of that time, along with Frederick Douglass, Ida B. Wells, and others. Washington was too busy kissing the feet of white people.
Academic research is about providing proof to support your case. Have you ever written a college paper or a thesis? You said you did your own research. Some things are factual. One can come to a conclusion based on evidence in a text, actual facts, etc.
In your opinion, why isn’t SotS racist?
And there was an article before of someone who wrote the Disney song lyrics stating that it was a nonsense phrase, in songs called Vocables such la la and na na. A phrase he mentioned his mother used to get the kids to hurry to dinner if my memory serves me correctly. So we would have to say the songwriter is lying as well.
At a certain point it is like the number 23 phenomenon. People will look for connections to find a way to find their bias.
Brer Panther
Well-Known Member
They probably got the information from Wikipedia, which in turn cites a book from 1997... and just before that claims - from the mouth of a Disney historian - that the phrase "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" was invented by Walt Disney. So which is it, Wikipedia?
Yeah, I've tried to read those versions of the stories and all the slang and dialect written for the characters made me a bit iffy. It didn't take away from my enjoyment of the ride, though.
You mean like how people have come to the conclusion that the ride is supposed to be a metaphor for "staying in your place" or whatever? There really does come a point where we're looking too far into things.
Dear Prudence
Well-Known Member
The "historian" in question does not cite his sources and uses a lot of confirmation bias.
Brer Panther
Well-Known Member
So... is "Zip-a-Dee-Doo-Dah" racist or is it not? I'm very confused.
I should have been more specific with Du Bois and Wells. They were both activists. Douglass was the abolitionist. Washington, Du Bois, and Wells were prominent post-Civil War. Wells in particular is known for her anti-lynching work.
GimpYancIent
Well-Known Member
It's a tune, good elevator music, parade background that is not exactly toe tapping and that's all. Nothing to be confused about.
This. I saw a poster here actually try and say the segue from hyper real to animation line of the human world and critter world were once closer than they are now was evidence to the stance that slavery was justified.
It can't just be a transition of storytelling line?
Last edited: