Theme Park Think Tank with Len

skypilot2922

Well-Known Member
The thing is a lot of us have gotten to a point (me included) - where we still love the place - but we aren’t particularly fond of the company who is running it.

Its kinda like being a diehard fan of a particular sports team - and recognizing the owner, GM, and coach are absolutely worthless. But you still wear the colors on game day. Then curse at all the bad decisions the day after

You nailed it, Disney now is like the Red Sox in the Dan Duquette years. You love the team but the owner and management only care about extracting money from the fans. And you long for an owner who loves the team as much as you do.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
Look at a majority of corporations and businesses and you can see a deterioration of how not only customers but staff are treated. Its all about the bottom line and bringing in the dollars.
Exactly. It's mostly about the CEO doing whatever they need to do for their own pocket book with very little concern for the future. It's all about the now. Let someone else deal with the fallout in the future.
I don't think this is fair. Unless we are choosing to ignore RotR, Guardians, Remi, Runaway Railroad and Tron (plus Avengers Campus).
But ya, F all that, right?

Edit: Sure, MMRR, Galaxy's edge and Guardians replaced(ish) existing attractions, and Tron removed a couple hundred feet of Speedway, but still...
I would hardly commend Disney for what they have been building lately. First, like you said, most of what they are doing is at the expense of another attraction. And second, they went around a decade doing almost NOTHING. All while jacking up prices, removing entertainment and reducing hours for paid hard ticket events... So yes I think it's plenty fair to call them out.
 

Doberge

True Bayou Magic
Premium Member
it was in reference to Len‘s comments in the podcast that if wait times are monetized there would be less incentive to build new attractions in the future.
If they monetize attraction wait lists the incentive to a new attraction is new (or better) revenue from monetizing that attraction's wait time. I think the more apt issues are 1) there becomes less incentive to refurbish and/or take an attraction offline to give the attention it needs (and that's already a problem) because each day offline is unrealized revenue, and 2) increased manipulation of standby waits because it literally makes money to have longer waits --> more paid fast passes at higher costs (more want to buy and Disney can, in demand theory, charge more the longer the standby wait).
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Bring Me A Shrubbery
Premium Member
I agree, and we are super excited about the new attractions. I didn’t word it properly - it was in reference to Len‘s comments in the podcast that if wait times are monetized there would be less incentive to build new attractions in the future.

They have to build new attractions and entertainment options. There’s no way around that. So does Uni. So does SeaWorld And so does Orlando.

If they don’t - their addressable market doesn’t grow. What all Orlando theme parks, the city of Orlando (yes, LBV) and the state of Florida want - is more people visiting Orlando.

More people came when Potter opened. More people came when Avatar opened. Diagon Alley. SWGE. The Fantasyland Expansion. On and on.

The addressable market gets bigger and the theme parks compete to shift market share. That’s the game. There were people that went to Orlando specifically for Potter that also ended up in the MK. And there are people that went specifically for SWGE that ended up in Diagon Alley.

if the parks don’t evolve the addressable market doesn’t grow (could possibly shrink).

I’m not so concerned with the incentive. I’m more worried about the vision and execution.
 

Model3 McQueen

Well-Known Member
In the Parks
No
Curious as to what all of you would consider the reason(s) as to why Disney is becoming the way it is. My reasons may differ from yours.

-is it the entertainment budget cuts?
-maintenance budget cuts?
-yearly price raises?
-no more original IP implementations? Too much SW, Marvel, Pixar, etc.?
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
Curious as to what all of you would consider the reason(s) as to why Disney is becoming the way it is.

The people in charge do not respect or have any career background in hospitality or theme parks.

They are continuously amazed that people pay money to see them.

They have a vague understanding of the various things people do at the parks within a day, and are looking to find ways to monetize every step and choice you make, along with looking for ways to reduce operating costs.

This, to them, is an easier, faster way to grow profits (or stop the bleed) than investing in new experiences whose costs have spiraled out of control, in part due to Disney's inability to make decisions or understand their own business. They keep firing the people who do.

Despite all of this, Disney gets by thanks to decades worth of investments, brand recognition and public good will built up long before the people in charge rose to those positions.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Bring Me A Shrubbery
Premium Member
Curious as to what all of you would consider the reason(s) as to why Disney is becoming the way it is. My reasons may differ from yours.

-is it the entertainment budget cuts?
-maintenance budget cuts?
-yearly price raises?
-no more original IP implementations? Too much SW, Marvel, Pixar, etc.?
Cuts have a lot to do with it - across the board. The experience isn’t what it once was. IMO it’s a shift from exceeding expectations to now just meeting them (barely)

I look at it this way.

You want raise the price of a burger. Okay. Then give me a better burger. Want to increase ticket prices. I’m fine with that - give me a better experience. Want to jack up room rates. Sure, I’ll still go - just give me a better quality room

Disney’s price increases routinely outpace CPI (well don’t know about this year). So the basis of the increase is more than just higher costs. You can’t tell me that what used to be a $12 burger combo is a few short years later now over $17 - because of solely increased costs. Especially when the burger has gone down in quality.

If they would put some of that money into a delivering a better product. Yeah. We’re good. But they don’t. Then they wonder why all guests don’t eat on property or why Restaurant chains are lining up on 535, Turkey Lake Road, and IDrive.

I’ve done a few surveys where they’ve asked about food. But it’s always been along the lines of options rather than quality. They could introduce 20 new options of food - but if of the same quality of the existing options. Well, not exactly a win.
 

britain

Well-Known Member
Did anyone read/hear Cory Doctorow's analysis of the current changes in pricing/queuing/ticketing? Among many other interesting things, he's saying that there is an argument that Paid Fastpass would thwart Anti-Trust laws because once you're in the park, there's no way for non-Disney entities to offer "competitively priced" paid fastpasses for the same attractions that Disney sells their high priced fastpasses for. You're essentially in Monopolyland. The only competition is the stand-by line, which Disney controls and manipulates.

Sigh... I'm thinking of changing plans from a WDW trip to Ghibli Park when it opens next year. No rides, but as Linus Van Pelt said, "Nothing but sincerity as far as the eye can see!"
 
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Jon81uk

Well-Known Member
Among many other interesting things, he's saying that there is an argument that Paid Fastpass would thwart Anti-Trust laws because once you're in the park, there's no way for non-Disney entities to offer "competitively priced" paid fastpasses for the same attractions that Disney sells their high priced fastpasses for. You're essentially in Monopolyland. The only competition is the stand-by line, which Disney controls and manipulates.
Almost every other theme park offers paid queue jump tickets.
If it was a monopoly issue then surely someone would have gone after Six Flags, Universal, Merlin and the others by now?
 
I'm going to repost something I posted on another site's forum about monetizing fastpass. I think it applies to this conversation as well.

"This is about making money. And before we hate on Chapek for doing this (and trust me I HATE THIS), we're really all to blame, not him. Two points.

First, I don't think Disney should only pursue $$$$. They *should* pursue money to some extent -- it's a private business after all. But I think it's fair for us to say that as between "6 Bentleys" or "5 Bentleys plus preserving the Disney Magic" the second is the better choice. In other words, you can make a ton of money and still preserve what makes Disney special.

Unfortunately and sadly, as far as I understand it, "maximize profit and the legacy be damned" is a natural result of the way our system is set up. Look, I'm a free market capitalist. It's the best system, IMO. But like all systems, it has flaws. One of the flaws is exactly what we see here. We may hate Chapek, but what is he supposed to do? If he can bring in more $$$ the shareholders keep him. If not, he's out. If he says, "I'm leaving money on the table to preserve magic," he'll be out in a hot minute.

And who are these evil shareholders making these demands? Largely you and me. When I go talk to my financial planner, I get whiny and angry if my stock portfolio is down and happy when it's up. (FWIW, this is a hypothetical portfolio :) ) So my hypothetical financial planner moves my money to where I get a better return, because that's what I demand, and it's what you demand, too.

So we're effectively, all of us, telling Chapek to maximize profits. When you look for a return on your 401k, are you really asking about whether ACME, Inc. in Bubaville, Indiana is upholding its founders dedication to preserving beaver habitats? Nope. You're asking "why is my stock portfolio down this month?" And if the answer is "ACME stock is down" you say "sell the ACME" and ACME's CEO gets the message loud and clear - forget the beavers, maximize the profits.

So while we're all correct in saying that Bob Chapek can make a ton while also preserving what we most value about Disney, ultimately Chapek is doing what the system demands, and it's a system we all participate in and create.

Which brings me to my second point - short term thinking. Our system isn't set up to reward long-term thinking. I think monetizing Fastpass stinks. I think it sends the wrong message, creates even more marked tiers of guests, and really ruins some of the egalitarian magic that we can at least pretend to have inside the parks. Over the long term, I think that degrades the experience and will make Disney less profitable than it could have been.

But long-term thinking is a really hard thing for a CEO to do when he or she will be judged on profits earned in the next quarter or year. Can Iger or Chapek plant trees that will bear fruit in 20 years? Not if they want a job. They can probably push for mid-term thinking - a few years down the road. But really making subtle, subjective choices to "preserve the magic" for decades-long improvement in profits simply makes no sense. Instead, the incentive (as explained above) is to chop down trees, sell the wood, and make a good profit this quarter.

As far as I can see, that's kind of the nature of publicly traded companies. Private companies can think long-term. Make investments for the grandkids. Disneyland was created a few years *before* Disney went public. Could that vision have been created otherwise? I have my doubts.

From a fan perspective, I hate monetized fastpass. Hate it.

But unless we go back to a pre-publicly traded Disney that can really be a family or one-man vision, this is the way it's going to be, for better or worse.

This all stinks, of course. Private parties and deluxe resorts and expensive character meals are all things I can live with because the core Disney product is still open to everyone who is able to get into the park (which to be clear, is nowhere near everyone). But I felt slimey paying for express pass at Universal and I'd feel slimey (and impoverished) paying for it at Disney."
 

Joe

I'm only visiting this planet.
Premium Member
The real problem with SWL is twofold it was designed with interactive streetmosphere which of course the bobs stripped away, Second Batuu has no cultural resonance. I’m told the rides are great but i have no interest in visiting a bombed out wasteland.

Had they built Mos Eisley spaceport and a BIG cantina the noisier the better. They then could have say used the Star Tours sims for a trip to Batuu like the Hogwarts express between diagon alley and hogsmeade
Are you still counting cars in the parking lot to gauge attendance?
 

skypilot2922

Well-Known Member
Curious as to what all of you would consider the reason(s) as to why Disney is becoming the way it is. My reasons may differ from yours.

-is it the entertainment budget cuts?
-maintenance budget cuts?
-yearly price raises?
-no more original IP implementations? Too much SW, Marvel, Pixar, etc.?

None of the above they are all symptoms of Bob Iger's desire to reposition Disney from a 'Widows and Orphans' stock (makes a consistent profit and pays a dividend every quarter) to a Growth Stock, With that comes the need to increase margins every quarter, The fat at Disney is long gone now they are cutting into muscle and bone to 'make the numbers'
 

mysto

Well-Known Member
I feel like Disney has had Touring Plans in their sights for a long time. When FP+ was introduced, I noted that Disney would have easy access to a lot of the same data Len and crew have been collecting manually all this time. With Genie, they'll be using a similar predictive idea to help guests with planning, competing with yet another TP edge. I wouldn't be surprised if more copied services are to come.

I don't think executives are compensated for intelligent decision making or original thought anymore. They just instruct their leads to copy what others are doing and go back to their hobbies, back to their real interests. "Ken, we need a rewards program like <competitor>, make the cashiers ask for it every time." "Yes sir mr CEO sir right away."

I'm a long time TP fan, my first trip taken under their tutelage was 1998. If anyone can figure how to game the parks with Genie it's them.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I look at it this way.

You want raise the price of a burger. Okay. Then give me a better burger. Want to increase ticket prices. I’m fine with that - give me a better experience. Want to jack up room rates. Sure, I’ll still go - just give me a better quality room
This is at the heart of most doom and gloomers as we're called. I don't know too many people who have a problem with the idea of, better experience = increase in cost. The sad fact of the matter is, at this point, they are raising prices and taking away experiences. Not for any reason other than, they can. Disney is going to run this thing into the ground to see how much they can charge, and how much they can take away, and people still show up. Disney is in we're invincible mode. I'm sure the thought process is, push it until it breaks. When it does, we can just throw in a free cupcake party and give an extra fast pass at no charge and everyone will come running back.
 

"El Gran Magnifico"

Bring Me A Shrubbery
Premium Member
This is at the heart of most doom and gloomers as we're called. I don't know too many people who have a problem with the idea of, better experience = increase in cost. The sad fact of the matter is, at this point, they are raising prices and taking away experiences. Not for any reason other than, they can. Disney is going to run this thing into the ground to see how much they can charge, and how much they can take away, and people still show up. Disney is in we're invincible mode. I'm sure the thought process is, push it until it breaks. When it does, we can just throw in a free cupcake party and give an extra fast pass at no charge and everyone will come running back.
I wouldn’t categorize it as “doom and gloomer” although there are some. I very much enjoy Disney. But I also recognize that I don’t enjoy it as much as did. I’m not close to not going.

But where I am close to ( surpassed it ) is arbitrarily giving money to Disney just because it’s Disney. I eat off property more - and quite frankly that’s because the food is better. There are a few DS non Disney places (Polite Pig) that Are pretty good as well

I’ve migrated from the guest who will spend time exclusively on property to one that will venture out frequently for alternatives. The majority of my meal budget and entertainment budget is spent outside the gates.

This puts me in the “you’re the type of guest Disney dislikes because you don’t spend money in the park” category. But that’s on Disney. Give me better quality and value and I’d happily spend it with Disney. They haven’t taken me up on that offer - so I do not.
 

erasure fan1

Well-Known Member
I wouldn’t categorize it as “doom and gloomer”
Neither would I. But that is how this type of thinking is classified around here. Lol
But where I am close to ( surpassed it ) is arbitrarily giving money to Disney just because it’s Disney.
100%. We would spend our 8 or so days all in Disney, never wanting to leave the property. 2 of our last 4 vacations, we skipped Disney and the parks altogether. Like you said, it's not my fault. Disney is the one who pushed us to other things. I don't care how much history I have with Disney, or any other company, you still need to earn my money.
 

ChrisFL

Premium Member
This just feels like the late 90's/early 2000's Paul Pressler era again to me...something bad, but not something permanent.

Chapek is already having issues with others in the company if the rumors are to be believed (The knee jerk horrid response to the Scarlett Johansson lawsuit didn't help matters)
 

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