The Tipping Point For Change

[Goofyernmost]

There are so many things in the area you really should experience, I even got a kick out of LEGOLand with the kids. I don't understand why with many Disney fans it has to be one or the other. The recent moves by the company say to me that they are at a place where they aren't concerned about 'losing attendance' to other attractions unless it gets dire.

I haven't been to LEGOland itself, but it is where Cyprus Gardens was (meant to mention that in my post but forgot). There wasn't a lot to see or do when I last went. It consisted of three major things back then. The water skiing show, which I understand is there now. The flowers and the live Southern Bells all posed for pictures and a mediocre ice show. I'm sure the LEGOland is an improvement but Cyprus Garden was a destination actually before my adult time. When I went there in my 30's I felt like I was visiting a nursing home. Now I am one of those more mature adults, but we are younger for our age. Not sure how that is possible, but I know it's true.

 

[tl77]

Nostalgia is a powerful thing. It's used against us on the daily to sell a wide variety of crap.

It's just up to middle America to be savvy enough to see through the smokescreen and not take it personally when they finally realize that -- GASP-- Disney is out for profit and has shareholders to tend to.

No major company is who they started off as. They all have dirty hands. This is life.

A lot of Disney fanatics need a reality check.

Something isn't "nostalgia" if it's still part of the popular culture... Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" maybe be 84 years old but it's still relevant and entertaining to people today... Mr Toad, Davy Crockett, and Song of the South on the other hand, are not really part of the popular culture anymore, so to people who remember them fondly they are "nostalgia"

Disney knows what they sell is popular, which is why they constantly raising the price on it, and are now also cutting corners on the quality of the product, but those kinds things that's not what the company was built on. They were always know as putting out a "top quality" product... here's an example of that

This is Morey's Pier in Wildwood New Jersey. Around the mid to late 70's/early 80's they made "knock off versions" of popular Disney World attractions, like their "Country Bear Jubilee: Continual Stage Show Direct From Orlando Florida" on the right, and the decrepit building in the center left was their "Haunted Mansion". Some people living in the North East enjoyed this stuff and remember it fondly, others of us drove 2 days to Florida to see Disney's superior versions of these attractions.

I'm not sure what Disney offers is still worth the trouble or the price anymore. I don't miss "Mr Toad's Wild Ride" or "Snow White's Scary Adventures" because "those the painted flats with black-lights, dark rides" were exactly like what you'd see at the Jersey Shore... and when they added Dinoland with all is Midway game I hated it because it was exactly like the Jersey Shore... There's a difference between a "luxury resort" and a "tourist trap" ...some of us know the difference.

Disney and their shareholders needs to realize that they the got where they are by tending to the public and the guests, and that arts, and entertainment, and hotels, are all "service industries"

 

[Kamikaze]

Something isn't "nostalgia" if it's still part of the popular culture... Disney's "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" maybe be 84 years old but it's still relevant and entertaining to people today... Mr Toad, Davy Crockett, and Song of the South on the other hand, are not really part of the popular culture anymore, so to people who remember them fondly they are "nostalgia"

Disney knows what they sell is popular, which is why they constantly raising the price on it, and are now also cutting corners on the quality of the product, but those kinds things that's not what the company was built on. They were always know as putting out a "top quality" product... here's an example of that

View attachment 575235

This is Morey's Pier in Wildwood New Jersey. Around the mid to late 70's/early 80's they made "knock off versions" of popular Disney World attractions, like their "Country Bear Jubilee: Continual Stage Show Direct From Orlando Florida" on the right, and the decrepit building in the center left was their "Haunted Mansion". Some people living in the North East enjoyed this stuff and remember it fondly, others of us drove 2 days to Florida to see Disney's superior versions of these attractions.

I'm not sure what Disney offers is still worth the trouble or the price anymore. I don't miss "Mr Toad's Wild Ride" or "Snow White's Scary Adventures" because "those the painted flats with black-lights, dark rides" were exactly like what you'd see at the Jersey Shore... and when they added Dinoland with all is Midway game I hated it because it was exactly like the Jersey Shore... There's a difference between a "luxury resort" and a "tourist trap" ...some of us know the difference.

Disney and their shareholders needs to realize that they the got where they are by tending to the public and the guests, and that arts, and entertainment, and hotels, are all "service industries"

Yeah, the bold isn't true.

For example: People have nostalgia for old video games when new ones of the same series are still being released.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

I think the true nostalgia and rose-colored glasses happen when we look back and think that Disney as a public company wasn’t about profit from the start. Visionaries we’re balanced by bean counters and it almost went sideways more than a few times even when Walt was alive.

Not an excuse for every bad decision but they have a responsibility to the stockholders have and will always come first. And no offense to anyone, but as it should be for a public company.

 

[UNCgolf]

Not an excuse for every bad decision but they have a responsibility to the stockholders have and will always come first. And no offense to anyone, but as it should be for a public company.

This is true, but the problem is there's no definitive answer as to how to best serve the stockholders. A long-term stockholder has different priorities than a short-term one, as one example. If management makes a decision that increases profits over the next 3 years but results in a significant decline 15 years down the road, did they do the right thing? It depends on who you talk to.

There's certainly no obligation to maximize short-term profits at all costs.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

This is true, but the problem is there's no definitive answer to how to best serve the stockholders. A long-term stockholder has different priorities than a short-term one, as one example. If management makes a decision that increases profits over the next 3 years but results in a significant decline 15 years down the road, did they do the right thing? It depends on who you talk to.

There's certainly no obligation to maximize short-term profits at all costs.

No but for a traditional dividend company like Disney the lack increase in stock value creates capital and credit problems, so they do need a more than inflationary increase year over year. I would argue that many of the moves they are making including the Fox acquisition, refurbishments, closures due to COVID, and others are all budget eaters and that changes have to be made in the models across the company if those kids of massive outlays and shortfalls are to be absorbed by the stockholders. In essence, they are sacrificing some of what we talk about here to shift overall growth to the future. Very few CEOs hang their hats on short term growth unless they are running new or growth companies. And watching their recent EPS, there are certainly areas for concern.

 

[yensid67]

While I appreciate your opinion, personally, I find waiting on a bus to be frustrating. To me, driving is less stressful unless I'm like on I-4 stuck in a traffic jam.

If the bus doesn't arrive for 20 minutes, that's 20 minutes I could have been doing something else. Attraction queues are - generally - less annoying because they progress. I also don't mind the shuttle boats at Universal because the wait is usually less than 5 minutes.

I'm actually a little curious, how do people not get aggravated when they are trying to take a bus to an ADR, but the bus doesn't show, and that = (really) late to the ADR?

or they dont want to think about the outside world. For me personally i love getting on the magical express and being taken to my hotel, then not thinking about driving, or my car, or parking or getting lost. I can take a boat to disney springs, i can walk around the resort then get on a bus to the parks. ITs the least stress ive had since being an adult. And i love every second of it.

that being said the loss of the magical express is a huge bubble buster for me. So next year ill be renting a car and it will change that removal from the outside world... and ill lose a day or 2 of disney to go to legoland cape Canaveral and universal.. i kind of want to go to weeki wachi as well.

I think disney is making a mistake removing me.

WE NEED MORE GUESTS LIKE YOU TO PUT THEIR FOOT DOWN AND SAY ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!

 

[Ahsoka102]

There are so many things in the area you really should experience, I even got a kick out of LEGOLand with the kids. I don't understand why with many Disney fans it has to be one or the other. The recent moves by the company say to me that they are at a place where they aren't concerned about 'losing attendance' to other attractions unless it gets dire.

We really enjoyed LegoLand and the kids had a blast! We went at a time when my son was still too short for most rollercoasters at other amusment parks. It was amazing for him at LegoLand becuase he was tall enough for every rollercoaster and ride. Lines were short and the rides were pretty creative. I was actually impressed. It was great that they had a waterpark there too, so we could cool off during the hottest part of the day.

 

[skypilot2922]

I've been using Universal for awhile but it really is two completely different experiences.

And have they? Demand seems to still be strong despite the doom and gloom most social media people seem to throw out there for extra clicks. I'm not saying I'm a fan of everything being done, but the numbers seem like they're not struggling to fill space.

How much of the current demand is 'revenge travel' goldurnit We're going on vacation if it kills us... But how many of this year's visitors will make a visit next year or three years from now.

 

[skypilot2922]

I think the true nostalgia and rose-colored glasses happen when we look back and think that Disney as a public company wasn’t about profit from the start. Visionaries we’re balanced by bean counters and it almost went sideways more than a few times even when Walt was alive.

Not an excuse for every bad decision but they have a responsibility to the stockholders have and will always come first. And no offense to anyone, but as it should be for a public company.

Wrong yes the BoD has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of the company, That is to operate the company in the 'best interests' of the stockholders, However maximizing short term gain at the expense of the long term health of the company is not in the best interest of the majority of shareholders as it primarily benefits the executives of the company and not the larger community of shareholders.

Just ask Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk - both could have run their companies to generate short term profit yet instead they added products and services which increased the top line of the business. Much as Eisner did for Disney he did not mine short term profit he added products and services which diversified and increased the top line of the business.

 

[skypilot2922]

This is true, but the problem is there's no definitive answer as to how to best serve the stockholders. A long-term stockholder has different priorities than a short-term one, as one example. If management makes a decision that increases profits over the next 3 years but results in a significant decline 15 years down the road, did they do the right thing? It depends on who you talk to.

There's certainly no obligation to maximize short-term profits at all costs.

Which is why executives have fought back hard against laws and regulations which would force them to hold stocks for 5-7 years and making performance bonuses contingent upon metrics which span multiple quarters. As measures like this would separate the wheat from the chaff rather quickly as you can't lay off 10,000 people for a quick boost in the quarterly EPS, they would horror of horrors actually have to manage the business instead of manage the stock price.

 

[skypilot2922]

No but for a traditional dividend company like Disney the lack increase in stock value creates capital and credit problems, so they do need a more than inflationary increase year over year. I would argue that many of the moves they are making including the Fox acquisition, refurbishments, closures due to COVID, and others are all budget eaters and that changes have to be made in the models across the company if those kids of massive outlays and shortfalls are to be absorbed by the stockholders. In essence, they are sacrificing some of what we talk about here to shift overall growth to the future. Very few CEOs hang their hats on short term growth unless they are running new or growth companies. And watching their recent EPS, there are certainly areas for concern.

For a dividend based company, consistent profitabiliy is more important than any other metric, in fact stock price is almost irrelevant because the stockholders receive value in the form of dividends the share value is not relevant (it is of course in the locker room talk of executives 'mine is bigger than yours'). as for credit well a consistent share price is better for credit as it means the share is likely to be worth at least what was paid for it 3 years from now.

All that gaming the share price just creates a casino atmosphere on wall st, with people's livelihoods as the casino chips.

 

[DisneyMusician2]

For a dividend based company, consistent profitabiliy is more important than any other metric, in fact stock price is almost irrelevant because the stockholders receive value in the form of dividends the share value is not relevant (it is of course in the locker room talk of executives 'mine is bigger than yours'). as for credit well a consistent share price is better for credit as it means the share is likely to be worth at least what was paid for it 3 years from now.

All that gaming the share price just creates a casino atmosphere on wall st, with people's livelihoods as the casino chips.

All I’m saying is the stock is most likely overvalued and the EPS is off for comparable companies so unless they do something it may see quite the correction…some of these measures are clearly directed to address that

 

[skypilot2922]

All I’m saying is the stock is most likely overvalued and the EPS is off for comparable companies so unless they do something it may see quite the correction…some of these measures are clearly directed to address that

Oh heck yes, Iger over the years bought back almost 1/4 of DIS outstanding shares to pump EPS.

The K factor for DIS is up in the stratosphere I long ago sold my DIS stock except for one symbolic share.

It’s due for a massive correction at some point. And the fact that Iger liquidated most of his holdings in DIS to me means that he has no faith in the company going forward.

Chapek could not manage a Starbucks much less DIS and without Zenia Mucha to manage messaging, Disney post Iger is gonna be ugly

 

[spock8113]

Based on my visitations below, I reached my tipping point in 2016, fell over and have yet to get back up even though I have a button pendant. "Step over me and save yourself!"

 

[skypilot2922]

Based on my visitations below, I reached my tipping point in 2016, fell over and have yet to get back up even though I have a button pendant. "Step over me and save yourself!"

My tipping point was Marathon Weekend 2018, when my DVC reservation was 'given away' supposedly 'by accident' but the answer after that was 'we cannot accomodate you, should have bought travel insurance - have a magical day' To top it off they wanted to charge the points for a 'no show' in what alternate universe is giving someone's room away before they arrive and not having backup accomodations a No Show since we were there at posted check in time ... Had a very spirited conversation with MS when we returned.

It took a great deal of self control not to channel my inner Hulk... My guess is they oversold and basically went down who paid the most and DVC'ers in a DVC room got cut in our case a 2 BR in GFV.

Fortunately I had platinum status at Marriott so was able to score a villa over at Grande Vista which was VERY nice. But after that I was VERY VERY VERY angry with Disney and have had no real desire to return.

(edit)
This made me angry and sad angry because it thoroughly screwed up my plans for weekend which did include all the races so staying off property was much less convenient.

Sad because this is not the Disney I used to know I'm not stomping my feet because no bonus fastpasses because Mickey did not visit my table, I just wanted what I had paid (dearly) for but if reservations become an auction I just dont wanna play that game. As WOPR said 'The only way to win is not to play".

 

[lightguy]

I'm not sure there's really a tipping point, unfortunately. We live in a very large Country (It's a distant 3rd in population after India and China, but it's still the 3rd most populated county on the planet) with lots of people who have money. The number of people who can afford Disney far exceeds the annual capacity of WDW. With that said, I do think Disney is going to face a bit of a reckoning when Universals Epic Universe opens. With 3 gates, a waterpark, popular IP and the fact that it's MUCH more compact and easy to get around, they are going to push hard to get people to spend full 5 to 7 day vacations with just them. They certainly aren't Disney, but at this point, Disney isn't really the Disney people remember either. So come 2025 or so it's going to be very interesting to see what happens. We may take our 1st ever non-Disney trip to Orlando....and Disney should be terrified of that.

 

[Snake]

Wrong yes the BoD has a fiduciary duty to the shareholders of the company, That is to operate the company in the 'best interests' of the stockholders, However maximizing short term gain at the expense of the long term health of the company is not in the best interest of the majority of shareholders as it primarily benefits the executives of the company and not the larger community of shareholders.

Just ask Jeff Bezos and Elon Musk - both could have run their companies to generate short term profit yet instead they added products and services which increased the top line of the business. Much as Eisner did for Disney he did not mine short term profit he added products and services which diversified and increased the top line of the business.

The problem are CEO's like Iger that look for the short term to bump up for their golden parachute when they leave the company. An entertainment company is suppose to create new exciting properties to increase revenue, but that is hard and requires skill, talent, a bit of luck, but the most problematic for these CEO's, it REQUIRES RISK. Something most companies today try to avoid at all costs. The easy lazy thing to do, an most large companies are doing, buy up the competition. Boom, you increase company size, no risk because you are buy tried a true legit businesses that turn profits. Low an behold the CEO bumps his personal stakes with no risk. Look at the acquistions made before and after Iger. Acquistions look great on paper, but it means you no longer need to create something new, which I find problematic for a company that is supposed to be doing just that.

 

[kong1802]

My tipping point was Marathon Weekend 2018, when my DVC reservation was 'given away' supposedly 'by accident' but the answer after that was 'we cannot accomodate you, should have bought travel insurance - have a magical day' To top it off they wanted to charge the points for a 'no show' in what alternate universe is giving someone's room away before they arrive and not having backup accomodations a No Show since we were there at posted check in time ... Had a very spirited conversation with MS when we returned.

It took a great deal of self control not to channel my inner Hulk... My guess is they oversold and basically went down who paid the most and DVC'ers in a DVC room got cut in our case a 2 BR in GFV.

Fortunately I had platinum status at Marriott so was able to score a villa over at Grande Vista which was VERY nice. But after that I was VERY VERY VERY angry with Disney and have had no real desire to return.

(edit)
This made me angry and sad angry because it thoroughly screwed up my plans for weekend which did include all the races so staying off property was much less convenient.

Sad because this is not the Disney I used to know I'm not stomping my feet because no bonus fastpasses because Mickey did not visit my table, I just wanted what I had paid (dearly) for but if reservations become an auction I just dont wanna play that game. As WOPR said 'The only way to win is not to play".

This is my favorite FordExplorer post of all time.

Thanks for the memories!

 

[CastAStone]

My tipping point was Marathon Weekend 2018, when my DVC reservation was 'given away' supposedly 'by accident' but the answer after that was 'we cannot accomodate you, should have bought travel insurance - have a magical day' To top it off they wanted to charge the points for a 'no show' in what alternate universe is giving someone's room away before they arrive and not having backup accomodations a No Show since we were there at posted check in time ... Had a very spirited conversation with MS when we returned.

It took a great deal of self control not to channel my inner Hulk... My guess is they oversold and basically went down who paid the most and DVC'ers in a DVC room got cut in our case a 2 BR in GFV.

Fortunately I had platinum status at Marriott so was able to score a villa over at Grande Vista which was VERY nice. But after that I was VERY VERY VERY angry with Disney and have had no real desire to return.

(edit)
This made me angry and sad angry because it thoroughly screwed up my plans for weekend which did include all the races so staying off property was much less convenient.

Sad because this is not the Disney I used to know I'm not stomping my feet because no bonus fastpasses because Mickey did not visit my table, I just wanted what I had paid (dearly) for but if reservations become an auction I just dont wanna play that game. As WOPR said 'The only way to win is not to play".

I remember that story….

And now Riviera is mostly unavailable through the end of the year too... - Page 6 - The DVC Boards at MouseOwners.com - the place to talk DVC and Walt Disney World

And now Riviera is mostly unavailable through the end of the year too... Resorts

mouseowners.com

Reservations disappeared from dashboard

As with others on the thread, I saw similar weirdness with waitlist processing but I don't think it took this long to resolve. I would call MS as soon as you can. Wish they weren't having the staffing shortage at MS :(

www.disboards.com