The Spirited Back Nine ...

misterID

Well-Known Member
I want to feel that way, but I just don't. By all accounts the film is a piece of junk, anyway. Sony is already facing lawsuits from affected employees, if something really happened "bad" related to the film (actual violence) Sony would be out of business with liability lawsuits.

While again, on principle, I want to say - "Heck yeah!" to releasing the film - I don't think it's something enough to go to war over. It should have never been made in the first place. I'd fire everyone involved in approving it to begin with.

Not a week goes by that I don't hear about some school being evacuated and classes cancelled for a day or two because some idiot kid called in a threat or left a note, they are "giving in" as well to the demands. I don't blame theaters at all for not wanting to show this film, with threats from some entity that has already shown they are capable of damage - and if you can't book a film in major chains, there is no reason to release it financially, at least for now. It would cost more to ship the prints than they would get from the comparably scant few "independent" theaters that still exist even if they wanted to take the risk.

There was no good answer to this situation, except for them never being stupid enough to make the film in the first place.

That's been the real eye opener to our current cultural state, to be honest - because we view NK as a "bad guy" it's ok and folks say this film is "freedom of speech, man!" (even though as I am sure you know, it has nothing at all to do with freedom of speech, one of the most misunderstood rights ever). If this had been about...another topic, something we are supposed to be "culturally sensitive" to - it never would have been made in the first place, and if someone dared, it would have been condemned immediately as "insensitive" and meant to "incite".
Whether it's a bad film or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. They caved to (cyber) terrorist demands, one that had no merit they would commit violence. Maybe they had something else that Sony was afraid of, who knows. But nothing was going to make the company go out of business. That's not what matters here anyway. This sets a terrible precedent for some mindless group of losers to make demands thinking they'll get what they want by hacking.

And yes, the Jennifer Lawrence thing IS comparable because the hackers illegally HACKED into a secured network and stole property that didn't belong to them and used it against them. It was not a public email, no matter if it was corporate.

And sophomoric jokes are little reason to be upset. Pascal is very talented and is a flawed human like anyone else. That's life. The total lack of privacy and reality of how vulnerable security is now is way more frightening.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
It's easy to lose the larger point when you use so many air quotes.

Do you have anything to actually "contribute"? So far, you've assured me who the "really bad guys" are, because none of us would know that, and you've critiqued my writing style.

I just want to know if I should just "ignore" you, or if you actually have something to "say".

Whether it's a bad film or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. They caved to (cyber) terrorist demands, one that had no merit they would commit violence. Maybe they had something else that Sony was afraid of, who knows. But nothing was going to make the company go out of business. That's not what matters here anyway. This sets a terrible precedent for some mindless group of losers to make demands thinking they'll get what they want by hacking.

No merit? You haven't been following the story. You do realize who perpetrated this, right? And that someone got inside to make it happen? Like, actually in the Sony offices?

It had a lot more merit than some kid calling in a threat to a school to get out of a test, which we "cave to" all the time.

But as has been explained yet folks simply do not comprehend, there simply was no choice - all the major chains refused to show it (which make up almost the entirety of screens in America, very, very few independents are left because the digital divide has put them out of business). Studios have nothing to do with theaters - that's actually by law. They have no control and cannot force them to show anything. If no one is going to show it, the decision was kind of made for them. The same would be done for any film that failed to get theaters to show it.

Regardless, if you think that wasn't it and it was simply all about the threat - how would YOU react if a foreign country had possession of all your personal data, names of your children, their medical histories, untold amounts of personal information about you and yours - and specifically threatened them with harm - would you be so quick to put your family at risk for a piece of garbage film that probably would have flopped in the first place? Think real hard before you answer that one, if you want to be honest.

And yes, the Jennifer Lawrence thing IS comparable because the hackers illegally HACKED into a secured network and stole property that didn't belong to them and used it against them. It was not a public email, no matter if it was corporate.

I specifically addressed that. No, they were not public, but as a corporate record they weren't private, either. They are property of the corporation. A publicly held corporation, which has very specific standards for information retention. The computers it was written on were owned by Sony, by Sony employees, on Sony company time. As such, it was especially stupid of them to say the things they did.

That is far different than a private citizen's privately owned cell phone.

And sophomoric jokes are little reason to be upset. Pascal is very talented and is a flawed human like anyone else. That's life. The total lack of privacy and reality of how vulnerable security is now is way more frightening.

Again, don't think you have been following the story. When it comes to Pascal, it's extremely disappointing that she was stupid enough to say those things on corporate email. Hopefully this is a wake-up call that email does not equal "water cooler". (Not that those things were appropriate even for that. If you have never worked in a corporate environment, you may not understand that.)

We are also talking about far more than sophomoric jokes, we are talking about things that were said that will affect careers and livelihoods of many folks who they derided, judged, and otherwise maligned. If you don't think their "sophomoric jokes" are going to cost them big time for years to come, you didn't read or understand what was said.
 

misterID

Well-Known Member
Do you have anything to actually "contribute"? So far, you've assured me who the "really bad guys" are, because none of us would know that, and you've critiqued my writing style.

I just want to know if I should just "ignore" you, or if you actually have something to "say".



No merit? You haven't been following the story. You do realize who perpetrated this, right? And that someone got inside to make it happen? Like, actually in the Sony offices?

It had a lot more merit than some kid calling in a threat to a school to get out of a test, which we "cave to" all the time.

But as has been explained yet folks simply do not comprehend, there simply was no choice - all the major chains refused to show it (which make up almost the entirety of screens in America, very, very few independents are left because the digital divide has put them out of business). Studios have nothing to do with theaters - that's actually by law. They have no control and cannot force them to show anything. If no one is going to show it, the decision was kind of made for them. The same would be done for any film that failed to get theaters to show it.

Regardless, if you think that wasn't it and it was simply all about the threat - how would YOU react if a foreign country had possession of all your personal data, names of your children, their medical histories, untold amounts of personal information about you and yours - and specifically threatened them with harm - would you be so quick to put your family at risk for a piece of garbage film that probably would have flopped in the first place? Think real hard before you answer that one, if you want to be honest.



I specifically addressed that. No, they were not public, but as a corporate record they weren't private, either. They are property of the corporation. A publicly held corporation, which has very specific standards for information retention. The computers it was written on were owned by Sony, by Sony employees, on Sony company time. As such, it was especially stupid of them to say the things they did.

That is far different than a private citizen's privately owned cell phone.



Again, don't think you have been following the story. When it comes to Pascal, it's extremely disappointing that she was stupid enough to say those things on corporate email. Hopefully this is a wake-up call that email does not equal "water cooler". (Not that those things were appropriate even for that. If you have never worked in a corporate environment, you may not understand that.)

We are also talking about far more than sophomoric jokes, we are talking about things that were said that will affect careers and livelihoods of many folks who they derided, judged, and otherwise maligned. If you don't think their "sophomoric jokes" are going to cost them big time for years to come, you didn't read or understand what was said.
The FBI said there was no merit there would be violence at movie theaters.

And you don't seem to realize that they could have put it out on VOD. Nothing stopped them.

You're getting bent out of shape over gossip and simple water cooler chatter. It will mean nothing in the scheme of things. Nothing. Yes, talk like that happens in corporate America too. I know that for a fact.

And this was far from a bomb threat. This caused one of the largest companies in the world to drop to their knees. Copycats will follow.

Someone hacked the cloud, got the pictures. Someone hacked the email security, got the emails. Same thing. Illegally obtaining things that don't belong to you for nefarious purposes. Simple.
 
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MarkTwain

Well-Known Member
But big hero 6 is doing alright! Darn I am so upset that yet another film starring a person of color from disney underperforms to their expectations again. Isn't the film still not out in a lot of good foreign markets? Like japan and the uk? :'( This sucks.

It seems like Disney always compares everything to their biggest successes. It isn't performing "well" because its success isn't matching Frozen's, even though it's already doing as well as Tangled did just a few years ago. Frozen has redefined the standard for success for them, but they won't acknowledge that the film was something of a rarity and that every future movie won't be like Frozen.

I hope the ramifications for this won't be negative, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are. It's refreshing when Disney steps outside their traditional fairytale genre, and I hope this doesn't mean we we'll be stuck with more princess films from here on out.
 

PhotoDave219

Well-Known Member
I want to feel that way, but I just don't. By all accounts the film is a piece of junk, anyway. Sony is already facing lawsuits from affected employees, if something really happened "bad" related to the film (actual violence) Sony would be out of business with liability lawsuits.

While again, on principle, I want to say - "Heck yeah!" to releasing the film - I don't think it's something enough to go to war over. It should have never been made in the first place. I'd fire everyone involved in approving it to begin with.

Not a week goes by that I don't hear about some school being evacuated and classes cancelled for a day or two because some idiot kid called in a threat or left a note, they are "giving in" as well to the demands. I don't blame theaters at all for not wanting to show this film, with threats from some entity that has already shown they are capable of damage - and if you can't book a film in major chains, there is no reason to release it financially, at least for now. It would cost more to ship the prints than they would get from the comparably scant few "independent" theaters that still exist even if they wanted to take the risk.

There was no good answer to this situation, except for them never being stupid enough to make the film in the first place.

That's been the real eye opener to our current cultural state, to be honest - because we view NK as a "bad guy" it's ok and folks say this film is "freedom of speech, man!" (even though as I am sure you know, it has nothing at all to do with freedom of speech, one of the most misunderstood rights ever). If this had been about...another topic, something we are supposed to be "culturally sensitive" to - it never would have been made in the first place, and if someone dared, it would have been condemned immediately as "insensitive" and meant to "incite".

Couple of thoughts… We both agree that it's not a free speech issue. This is a case of a private entity choosing not to exhibit their own movie which they are within every right to do that. United States government is actually saying to release it… Which might be a first.

So what's the situation in my opinion…? We have a nameless, faceless's group of criminals using the Internet to spread fear. Our government says it's North Korea. Private technology says it may not be. Either way it's an entire group of individuals hell-bent on just watching bought entertainment world burn…

Someone else had brought up the concept that Sony is not afraid of repercussions beyond the rest of their data and emails of being dumped to the world. The problem with that is there is an extreme likelihood that this Shadowy group well most likely dump those documents anyways.

What's apply this chaos to the Disney paradigm… Let's say some Shadoway group has a problem with how psychotic killer robots are portrayed & have issue with the avengers two. Let's say they decide that they're going to do something similar and threatens release documents unless the studio pulls the film… or a bunch of Epcot fanbois threatening to do something if their demands for maelstrom are not met. Slightly extreme in one case and slightly crazy in the other case but they are examples number last saw of what could happen. It's a slippery slope and you just can't give into this.

It's been interesting to see how Hollywood actually works when the Val is been lifted. Idris Elba as James Bond? Where do I sign up, that's going to be fantastic.

I think we are coming at this from two different directions. I really don't believe it was North Korea. I really don't think they have that kind of technical prowess.... And apparently Sony doesn't have much in the way of technical prowess in the ability to keep their own information safe. An entire redesign of how corporations protect their information will be completely redesigned after this.... Because it's a precedent to extort the company has been set. I don't see it as an act of war… And I really don't see this is something that involves nationstates. This is a group of people who are hell-bent on causing corporate chaos. I don't even see this as being about the movie, I've heard it's a total piece of pooh.

Copycats will try.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
It seems like Disney always compares everything to their biggest successes. It isn't performing "well" because its success isn't matching Frozen's, even though it's already doing as well as Tangled did just a few years ago. Frozen has redefined the standard for success for them, but they won't acknowledge that the film was something of a rarity and that every future movie won't be like Frozen.

I hope the ramifications for this won't be negative, but it wouldn't surprise me if they are. It's refreshing when Disney steps outside their traditional fairytale genre, and I hope this doesn't mean we we'll be stuck with more princess films from here on out.
TWDC is being run by numbers guys who have no understanding of the creative process, Under Eisner TWDC had the 'singles and doubles'' theory of moviemaking make a bunch of movies with moderate budgets promote heavily and some will flop, some will do well others will be blockbusters. But Iger has the tentpoles only strategy and each tentpole must do better than the last.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Whether it's a bad film or not has absolutely nothing to do with it. They caved to (cyber) terrorist demands, one that had no merit they would commit violence. Maybe they had something else that Sony was afraid of, who knows. But nothing was going to make the company go out of business. That's not what matters here anyway. This sets a terrible precedent for some mindless group of losers to make demands thinking they'll get what they want by hacking.

And yes, the Jennifer Lawrence thing IS comparable because the hackers illegally HACKED into a secured network and stole property that didn't belong to them and used it against them. It was not a public email, no matter if it was corporate.

And sophomoric jokes are little reason to be upset. Pascal is very talented and is a flawed human like anyone else. That's life. The total lack of privacy and reality of how vulnerable security is now is way more frightening.

This is why the NSA collecting all electronic communications is a bad idea because now if someone in power does not like you the government has all your communications which can be released selectively to do maximum damage. Not my definition of a 'free' country.

This time it was hackers, Next time it might be someone in government with hurt feelings effect will be the same. Food for thought
 
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Rodan75

Well-Known Member
Very curious about Spirit's comments on BH6 and DCL expansion.

BH6 is an excellent movie and if this was pre-Marvel there would already be a weekly cartoon in production and/or DisneyToon movies planned to expand the universe and generate a new consistent flow of consumer products revenue. Heck, if this was DWA there would already be two sequels in queue and a crappy Netflix toon in production.

They went with a more original ( I know it is 'based on...')tactic on this one and if the execs aren't happy we'll never see another original action adventure toon pic again.

Sad to see you pull back @WDW1974 , but totally understand.
 

bhg469

Well-Known Member
Couple of thoughts… We both agree that it's not a free speech issue. This is a case of a private entity choosing not to exhibit their own movie which they are within every right to do that. United States government is actually saying to release it… Which might be a first.

So what's the situation in my opinion…? We have a nameless, faceless's group of criminals using the Internet to spread fear. Our government says it's North Korea. Private technology says it may not be. Either way it's an entire group of individuals hell-bent on just watching bought entertainment world burn…

Someone else had brought up the concept that Sony is not afraid of repercussions beyond the rest of their data and emails of being dumped to the world. The problem with that is there is an extreme likelihood that this Shadowy group well most likely dump those documents anyways.

What's apply this chaos to the Disney paradigm… Let's say some Shadoway group has a problem with how psychotic killer robots are portrayed & have issue with the avengers two. Let's say they decide that they're going to do something similar and threatens release documents unless the studio pulls the film… or a bunch of Epcot fanbois threatening to do something if their demands for maelstrom are not met. Slightly extreme in one case and slightly crazy in the other case but they are examples number last saw of what could happen. It's a slippery slope and you just can't give into this.

It's been interesting to see how Hollywood actually works when the Val is been lifted. Idris Elba as James Bond? Where do I sign up, that's going to be fantastic.

I think we are coming at this from two different directions. I really don't believe it was North Korea. I really don't think they have that kind of technical prowess.... And apparently Sony doesn't have much in the way of technical prowess in the ability to keep their own information safe. An entire redesign of how corporations protect their information will be completely redesigned after this.... Because it's a precedent to extort the company has been set. I don't see it as an act of war… And I really don't see this is something that involves nationstates. This is a group of people who are hell-bent on causing corporate chaos. I don't even see this as being about the movie, I've heard it's a total piece of pooh.

Copycats will try.
I agree with the man with the camera. All great points Dave. You mentioned North Korea may not be behind the hacks and that could easily be true. It's difficult to believe that hackers so talented and focused on Fox could reside in a country with little connection to the rest of the world.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
To put things into perspective, Big Hero 6 has now made more than Wreck-It-Ralph in the US and will likely pass Tangled to become Disney's second biggest animated domestic released of the last 10+ years, even when adjusting for inflation. As for its foreign run, less than a dozen markets have seen the movie and many major ones (UK, Japan, China etc) are still weeks, if not months away. In other words, it's too early to judge on that front.

A recent Variety article mentioned the merch has been selling well and of course it's too early to know how well it will sell on video (a US release will likely come at the end of February) or what the long-term market value of this property will be.

I'm not surprised if Iger had higher expectations for this movie. This is the same company that demands regular growth in all divisions, but we know in cases like this it was never going to happen (or come close to matching) to whatever the immediate follow up to Frozen was from WDFA. It's not how movie business works in reality.

Big Hero 6 was an atypical Disney animated release that surprisingly managed to find financial and critical success and I am very happy for that. I'm just a little sad the man in charge can't see it like that.
 

doctornick

Well-Known Member
But big hero 6 is doing alright! Darn I am so upset that yet another film starring a person of color from disney underperforms to their expectations again. Isn't the film still not out in a lot of good foreign markets? Like japan and the uk? :'( This sucks.

It's made about $270M worldwide so far, which doesn't look that good, though as mentioned it has yet to open in a lot of key foreign markets. Plus holiday season is sometime big for family films, so it might get some domestic number boost in the next 2 weeks.

Still Wreck It, Ralph got $470M worldwide and Tangled got $590M. If BH6 doesn't hit at least $400-450M, I can understand how Disney would view it as a disappointment. Especially after a very good opening weekend domestically and some nice buzz.
 

GoofGoof

Premium Member
It's made about $270M worldwide so far, which doesn't look that good, though as mentioned it has yet to open in a lot of key foreign markets. Plus holiday season is sometime big for family films, so it might get some domestic number boost in the next 2 weeks.

Still Wreck It, Ralph got $470M worldwide and Tangled got $590M. If BH6 doesn't hit at least $400-450M, I can understand how Disney would view it as a disappointment. Especially after a very good opening weekend domestically and some nice buzz.
I think $400M should be doable. Through the holidays with all the kids off from school it's likely to pick up another $50M+ domestically. The rest of the foreign markets should push it over $400M. I doubt it gets close to Tangled, but has a shot to catch Wreck It Ralph. It's not a home run by any stretch, but I don't see how they could be disappointed. I think it cost something like $165M to make the movie plus the cost to market it. They should still make a decent profit.
 

Smiddimizer

Well-Known Member
As infuriated as I am with North Korea and Sony for caving ...it does make you think that it's high time for a palpable mainstream Hollywood movie that candidly depicts life within the borders of North Korea.

A satire like The Interview polarizes us because of how shocking the premise is, and people argue about whether it's sincere or not. A really good movie could have galvanized the whole public. Oh well.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
The FBI said there was no merit there would be violence at movie theaters.

And you don't seem to realize that they could have put it out on VOD. Nothing stopped them.

You're getting bent out of shape over gossip and simple water cooler chatter. It will mean nothing in the scheme of things. Nothing. Yes, talk like that happens in corporate America too. I know that for a fact.

And this was far from a bomb threat. This caused one of the largest companies in the world to drop to their knees. Copycats will follow.

Someone hacked the cloud, got the pictures. Someone hacked the email security, got the emails. Same thing. Illegally obtaining things that don't belong to you for nefarious purposes. Simple.

Again, you haven't followed this very closely. I'm not bent out of shape, but some of the actors/directors/producers etc. that were called "untalented", wastes of money, etc. are - if you think that is "gossip and water cooler chatter" you know nothing about Hollywood and deal making. To think it will have no impact is foolish.

And if you don't understand the difference between a private citizen's privately owned cell phone vs. corporate email, on corporate equipment, on corporate time - again, you don't know what you are talking about. You also can't selectively choose to believe the FBI on some things or others - they say they know who did it, the White House did as well - I'm going with them, for now. Sorry.

But I'm not going to argue back and forth with you, as you completely ignored the key question I asked you - as I thought you would. When people are grandstanding like they are on this issue, they don't want to look at the realities that the very real employees at Sony faced.

If you worked for Sony, and someone had all your personal information, the names of your children, your home address, social security number, medical records, access to untold amounts of your personal data, the US Government says that a foreign country is responsible, and they make SPECIFIC threats to your family and their safety multiple times - would YOU be so quick to put your family - and thousands of other employees families - at risk to put this garbage movie "on demand"?
 

Tigger1988

Well-Known Member
To put things into perspective, Big Hero 6 has now made more than Wreck-It-Ralph in the US and will likely pass Tangled to become Disney's second biggest animated domestic released of the last 10+ years, even when adjusting for inflation. As for its foreign run, less than a dozen markets have seen the movie and many major ones (UK, Japan, China etc) are still weeks, if not months away. In other words, it's too early to judge on that front.

A recent Variety article mentioned the merch has been selling well and of course it's too early to know how well it will sell on video (a US release will likely come at the end of February) or what the long-term market value of this property will be.

I'm not surprised if Iger had higher expectations for this movie. This is the same company that demands regular growth in all divisions, but we know in cases like this it was never going to happen (or come close to matching) to whatever the immediate follow up to Frozen was from WDFA. It's not how movie business works in reality.

Big Hero 6 was an atypical Disney animated release that surprisingly managed to find financial and critical success and I am very happy for that. I'm just a little sad the man in charge can't see it like that.
I mentioned earlier in the post that BH6 merch is damn near impossible to find this Christmas season, save for a few items. Honey Lemon dolls are going for 3 times their original price (or more) on eBay and have been sold out on the Disney Store site for over a month.
 

AEfx

Well-Known Member
Some interesting reading this morning, especially for folks who doubt who the perpetrators were: North Korea denies Sony hack but warns US - Worse is coming.

Yeah, I'd really like to know who would claim that if they were in Sony's position, they would have done differently. It's very easy to say they "caved" when it's not you and your employees (the majority of whom are just lower-middle class office workers like anyone else) and their families being threatened by a foreign government with direct harm, who verifiability has every bit of your personal information, were able to perpetrate something even security experts say was unprecedented and had an agent on-site to facilitate the crime already.

Something tells me folks wouldn't be nearly so eager to put their own families at risk - especially over a project they didn't believe in to begin with. It's easy when it's thousands of nameless, faceless employees of a "big shot studio" to strut around and criticize them for not "standing their ground" - by far different when you put yourself in the position of having you and your family threatened.

The selective interpretations of this are fascinating to me - we "cave" all the time - basically consenting to a strip search just to enter a domestic flight, allow our government to strip us of privacy rights, etc. - but a movie studio not releasing a stupid stoner comedy that shouldn't have been made to begin with is somehow this big line we have suddenly crossed. As I said, if this had been about religion, or pretty much any other real world leader, we would be decrying it and saying it was "culturally insensitive" and "inciting". It wouldn't even have been made at all.
 

lazyboy97o

Well-Known Member
Some interesting reading this morning, especially for folks who doubt who the perpetrators were: North Korea denies Sony hack but warns US - Worse is coming.

Yeah, I'd really like to know who would claim that if they were in Sony's position, they would have done differently. It's very easy to say they "caved" when it's not you and your employees (the majority of whom are just lower-middle class office workers like anyone else) and their families being threatened by a foreign government with direct harm, who verifiability has every bit of your personal information, were able to perpetrate something even security experts say was unprecedented and had an agent on-site to facilitate the crime already.

Something tells me folks wouldn't be nearly so eager to put their own families at risk - especially over a project they didn't believe in to begin with. It's easy when it's thousands of nameless, faceless employees of a "big shot studio" to strut around and criticize them for not "standing their ground" - by far different when you put yourself in the position of having you and your family threatened.
This all assumes that the hackers will keep their word and can be negotiated with.
 

Animaniac93-98

Well-Known Member
To follow up on my last BH6 post (highlights are my own):

"Big Hero 6 continued its very slow roll-out this weekend by expanding in to three major markets. The most significant of these was Japan, where its $5.3 million haul ranks second all-time for Disney Animation (behind Frozen, of course). It also opened to $1.7 million in Spain and $1.4 million in Italy.

Big Hero 6 has now earned $81.6 million overseas. It reaches Brazil and Australia next weekend, then begins to expand to the rest of its major markets in late January."


- Box Office Mojo
 

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