The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[GoofGoof]

True, but DVC owners only want to pay for maintaining a resort to a point. My SO, 'Angie M.', and I were discussing the WLV redo and how I thought 14 years for the first top to bottom redo was an obscene amount of time. She said she wouldn't want her maintenance fees to go up a dollar or two a point so the resort got a hard goods redo every 5-7 years, which is what I believe they need, especially when running at DVC occupancy levels.

I don't think much funding goes to common area rehabs at all. I do know that every deluxe resort winds up showing much worse wear and tear as soon as DVC becomes part of it. And it never goes back to the way it was before.

There is some money set aside for common areas for furniture and carpets and stuff like that, but areas at a shared resort would need to be split some way with the resort itself. What I think we are seeing with both Poly and now WL is a major refurb of common areas before DVC is sold. I am assuming that a portion of the point sales will be paying for the pool refurbs and the updates to the lobby areas of both resorts. It's a way for Disney to get DVC owners to front the bill for needed refurbs.

 

[Funmeister]

When the dust settles it seems regular resort guests will be on the outside looking in and the parks will be a shell of what they used to be.

To me the solution of building attendance at the resorts is to give them quality entertainment to justify staying on property.

 

[WDW1974]

Long-time lurker/reader here, and I just have a simple, perhaps stupid, but none the less a honest question:

Why is it that the DVC conversion "dumbs down" the hotels? Reading through a lot of the posts here, I get that there is negativity surrounding the DVC conversions, but I still fail to understand why it actually makes the specific hotels worse to stay at and make the Deluxe resorts less deluxe.

Have you read the 70-plus pages? People, including myself, have explained quite eloquently why this is the case.

Do I need to bring out my 375-pound bimbo wearing underwear and bra into a jacuzzi at the BC with tatts everywhere lighting up her Marlboro's as an example of some (notice I said 'some') of the folks who went from staying at Days Inn to WDW deluxes when timeshare was added.

To be fair, I've just been waiting to drop her (she was very heavy, after all) into the thread at some point.

 

[WDW1974]

But does that have anything to do with DVC? Couldn't or wouldn't maintenance issues like that happen anyway?

My question is; why is there, according to a lot of people here, a direct correlation between DVC and lowered resort quality? Does the DVC program provide less incentive for Disney to keep up the hotel standards somehow?

I would argue that Disney will never tell a DVC guest that they can't do anything, including using racks from dishwashers as hallway rides.

DVC had wonderful African-inspired dishware at DAK Lodge Villas. Guess what? Many guests (again, timeshare mentality of many -NOT ALL!) decided these were so nice and they were 'owners' that they simply walked out with them. Did Disney charge them? Accuse them of theft with police? Of course not. They simply put basic white plates in the units and sold the remainder at Property Control.

 

[TP2000]

Do I need to bring out my 375-pound bimbo wearing underwear and bra into a jacuzzi at the BC with tatts everywhere lighting up her Marlboro's as an example of some (notice I said 'some') of the folks who went from staying at Days Inn to WDW deluxes when timeshare was added.

To be fair, I've just been waiting to drop her (she was very heavy, after all) into the thread at some point.

Well, thanks for introducing us to her.

Which brings me back to Tokyo Disneyland. It's against the rules to swim in a Tokyo Disney Resort hotel pool with exposed tattoos. The Japanese feel tattoos denote lower class and suggests a connection to organized crime or prison sentences. It's forbidden to show your tattoos at the pool in Tokyo.

Can you imagine the uproar from all those flabby "hip" Americans with tattoos if WDW tried to implement that policy to keep things classy around the pools?

 

[Cesar R M]

@ParentsOf4

Wouldn't a more accurate accounting of the DVC cost per night figures look something like this?

Round #s for ease of use, and let's use the Wilderness Lodge. Let's say you paid $150 per point, for 150 points per year, and you bought in 1998. So, gorilla math time..

You paid $22,500 for your point allotment. You get 44 years worth of usage and a total of 6600 points. Each point is worth $3.50 approx. If a studio room is running you an average of 110 points for a week, that leaves you with $385 per week for your points. Right now maintenance there is around $6 per point, so that's $660. Add those two numbers together, and you get $1045 for the week, or $149 per night. So for 2014 a studio room at VWL is running a DVC member $149 per night.

Right now, September 10th-16th at WL is running about $250.

So, yes, there is a difference. But it is not quite as dramatic as you were implying. Unless a member got his/her points for free upfront, I think this is a better comparison then simply using the maintenance fees.

what about the difference in mousekeeping and maintenance?

 

[GoofGoof]

I would argue that Disney will never tell a DVC guest that they can't do anything, including using racks from dishwashers as hallway rides.

DVC had wonderful African-inspired dishware at DAK Lodge Villas. Guess what? Many guests (again, timeshare mentality of many -NOT ALL!) decided these were so nice and they were 'owners' that they simply walked out with them. Did Disney charge them? Accuse them of theft with police? Of course not. They simply put basic white plates in the units and sold the remainder at Property Control.

These are probably the same people who steal soda from the drink stations

 

[Mike S]

Yeah, but not entirely. TDS cost far more than the project Disney wanted to build: The Disney-MGM Studios-Japan.

So, it's a constant tug of war really (even between factions in TWDC).

Are you kidding? Who saved us from that and pushed that beautiful park we have today?

 

[WDW1974]

Right. DVC is a symptom, not the root of the problem.

I think what @NeXuS1000 asked though is valid. People seem to blame DVC and those that buy into it for WDW's "problems" but it isn't really the root cause. It's not like the company would be investing billions of dollars in the parks to build new attractions if they weren't building DVC.

True. But the point of this thread isn't to make DVCers feel better about themselves or where they fit in the WDW Circle of Life. ... It's to look at WDW's business model and TDO execs mindsets and how that impacts the resort and visitors as a whole.

DVC isn't the problem or the solution, but it factors into both greatly.

 

[cw1982]

Well, thanks for introducing us to her.

Which brings me back to Tokyo Disneyland. It's against the rules to swim in a Tokyo Disney Resort hotel pool with exposed tattoos. The Japanese feel tattoos denote lower class and suggests a connection to organized crime or prison sentences. It's forbidden to show your tattoos at the pool in Tokyo.

Can you imagine the uproar from all those flabby "hip" Americans with tattoos if WDW tried to implement that policy to keep things classy around the pools?

1) How are all Americans with tattoos "flabby"? I happen to have two of them, and I'm definitely not "flabby" by most standards.
2) IMO, WDW wouldn't be able to implement that as successfully as Tokyo Disneyland did because American culture is so different in that regard. Tattoos are not only for the racy and the rebellious, as some of previous generations seem to think. I would argue that in American culture, tattoos at a pool are not necessarily seen as taboo. At certain other environments, arguably yes, depending on the place and the tattoo to a degree... but at a pool?

As much as I dislike your example here, however, I do have to agree with your idea that some of the standards at WDW could be higher in certain areas. We see posts here all the time about people going to the signature restaurants in the same gym shorts and t shirt that they have been sweating in all day or about people who take their children to these places and then don't try to teach them how to behave in such an environment. To me, that's regrettable at best.

Interesting parallel, though... other recent posts in this thread discuss how the cruise lines still reward frequent visitors, while the hotels fail to do such a thing. Don't the cruise lines also require certain attire during certain meals? If so, it seems like the highest tier of classy restaurants would be able to do something similar, to a point.

 

[WDW1974]

Comments on how Tokyo Disneyland is more "Disney" than Disneyland and Walt Disney World go all the way back to the mid-1980s.

That is true. And I had family visit in 1986 (BTMRR was under construction as the first MAJOR new addition) and they said the same.

I believe much of that comes from the culture (Japanese and OLC corporate), no doubt. But does WDW even try?

 

[WDW1974]

Are you kidding? Who saved us from that and pushed that beautiful park we have today?

I never kid about theme parks. ... And largely folks who are no longer with the company today!

 

[omurice]

Not to mention I heard the Wedding Pavillion view was kind of destroyed due to where they located the VGF....

The view was totally destroyed at least in the direction looking toward LAND, especially in 2012 or 2013 during the construction. Now it looks like a vast white wall where the DVC flats are, it's just awful and sad.
And if you look out over the WATER, right now you have all the cranes refurbing the Poly.
Oh joy, to get hitched at Wedding Pavilion between 2012 and 2015... for the low low price of... WHAT?! (Faints)

 

[Mike S]

I never kid about theme parks. ... And largely folks who are no longer with the company today!

That is just sad on so many levels. Why does Disney seem to be hell bent on getting rid of the people who still understood 'it'? I wonder, have those people ended up where I think they did? Could explain those rumors about a certain third park being of that same quality.

 

[jlsHouston]

Can I ask (I will anyway) how much you paid just for the room (taxes too) for two weeks?

You can ask me. I booked using a PIN code they mistakenly sent in my grandson's name back in February for 8/17-8/24 garden view at GF. The rate is 317.20 per night for Sun-Thurs and 340.60 for Fri-Sat. The total for the 7 nights is 2550.66 tax in which is 364.38/night.
I don't think it's cheap or a deal but I am okay with the cost for the location. This is top amount I would pay for a deluxe room at WDW at this point, although I will admit I did pay rack rates to stay at the POLY 2 years ago over Thanksgiving and it was alot more than this for standard view.
I think there are some of us working class that stay deluxe, utilizing whatever discounts we can take advantage of for the dates we want to be on property for the following reasons:
We have found the deluxe resorts to provide a level of comfort and relaxation and amenities we are looking for on a brief vacation.
We may also travel with family members and the parks and other activities/attractions on property provide those family members with plenty of entertainment so we don't have to be the total vacation planner/coordinator all the time while on property.
We also like the parks and other attractions, though at a much less intense pace.
If you are going to spend high 4 figures on a 10 day family friendly resort experience, WDW deluxe is competitive with places like Atlantis or even staying at the lodge at Yellowstone or on a dude ranch....
And then for me personally, unless it's a weekend, I never take a real break from work at this point. So WDW with cell phone coverage and WiFi practically everywhere allows me to work while I am "vacationing".

 

[stevehousse]

Even with the pin code that still expensive...you can get a whole weeks vacation including 5/6 day park tickets for that price alone!

 

[asianway]

The loans are typically 10 years. Here's what I think is correct information, but I'm not 100% sure on all of it.

With any mortgage you have the originator, the servicing company and the owner of the note. When you first get a mortgage all 3 are the same company, but your loan is often sold to someone else. Whoever you make your payments to is the servicing company. The note itself is typically packaged together with similar loans and sold as a mortgage backed security to Fannie Mae or some other financial institution. You make your payment to the servicer, they take their cut off the top and then remit the principal and remaining interest to the note owner. For example if you are paying 5% interest on a 30 year mortgage the servicer may take 1% and remit the remaining 4% to the owner.

With a timeshare loan there is no government entity like Fannie Mae to buy the loans since they wouldn't qualify so they have to be packaged and sold to a bank. I'm pretty sure Disney is still servicing the loans so they make some money off of that, but the bulk of the interest goes to the bank that owns the loans. Back in 2008 Disney sold a large portion of their DVC loans to CitiGroup. I read an article somewhere that Citi owned over $500M in DVC loans at the time. Disney had to guarantee a certain portion of the loans since they are considered higher risk and unsecured. If owners defaulted, Disney would step in and swap out the loans with a new one in order to keep Citi happy and to make sure there wasn't a bank holding a fire sale on defaulted DVC points. When the credit market collapsed Citi cut back on what types of high risk loans they were buying so I'm not sure if the relationship even still exists. They are most likely still selling the loans to some financial institution.

DVD gets a servicing fee plus gets to keep the spread on the rate they loaned out and the rate they pay back to the bond holder. And they are going to be held responsible for all defaults like you said

 

[Fe Maiden]

Interesting parallel, though... other recent posts in this thread discuss how the cruise lines still reward frequent visitors, while the hotels fail to do such a thing. Don't the cruise lines also require certain attire during certain meals? If so, it seems like the highest tier of classy restaurants would be able to do something similar, to a point.

To me the problem is worse on cruise lines. I miss the old days of formal night when the majority of men were in tuxes and the rest were in suits including young men. But back then, you knew you were going to have a great meal in the main dining room. You didn't have to get upcharged at some specialty restaurant to get a good meal. And if steak wasn't on the menu that night just tell the staff and you can be sure one was prepared exactly how you like it.

 

[jlsHouston]

Even with the pin code that still expensive...you can get a whole weeks vacation including 5/6 day park tickets for that price alone!

Probably. But would I be happy with what I bought for $ 2550 elsewhere? No I would probably feel inconvenienced and irritable, I'm highly disagreeable when I don't have things the way I like them. I priced Hard Rock for that week and it was the same over at UNI and I would have to buy park tickets too and we have APs so I just have to pay for the room and the food and other misc stuff for 10 days. I can see where we are moving towards splitting these 10 days between WDW and UNI at some point. I really like Loews...
And I can tell you this, Orlando is not the spot I would ever vacation at if it weren't for WDW, and also I can't go blow off anywhere for 10 days without the 2 grandkids in tow because I am not just self employed but I am also the babysitter that single mother with children daughter relies upon.
WDW on property in a deluxe works really well for 10 day quasi breaks from reality...

 

[stlphil]

Since @ParentsOf4 and others have given the financial answers to the question, I would like to follow up with what I believe to be an example of the cosmetic, wal-mart style "dumb down" you get with DVC. Lets compare the original Grand Floridian with its DVC counterpart. Here is a picture of the original Grand Floridian. Its marvelous, exquisite, and extremely detail oriented. It is their "flagship resort", as they like to call it.


View attachment 60210


Now, lets take a look at the DVC version. I have placed arrows in areas that show the extreme LACK of detail when compared to the original GF design. Please keep in mind that this building is an addition to the most expensive and what Disney calls their "flagship resort". Also keep in mind the original was built decades ago when the compnay had less money to work with and technology and materials were not as advanced as today.


View attachment 60211

Lets go from top to bottom. Look at the spires on the DVC building. No windows, no layered roofing effect and much smaller. Also notice the roof is flat on DVC compared to the original which is layered. Now look at the covered windows on the roof (above the rooms) There isnt even a window on the DVC version, theyre not even sunk in and on the original building there is a window (on the roof) above EVERY room, on the DVC, there is just a few, and again, extremely less detailed. Next we move onto the side of buildings, IMO, the worst part. What were they thinking? Look at the sides of the original building, there are top to bottom bay window style towers with windows and coned rooftops. The side of DVC is just flat and white. They didnt even put faux windows in to create a decent look. Just a wall. It makes it look like a slightly upgraded
Red Roof Inn. Also notice the lack of trees. Theres very few compared to the original and the original has much better landscaping all around the resort, not just near the entrance. I will say that the rooms are excellent in both style and design, but that doesnt make up for the wal marting of the outside. Is this seriously the best they could do? Or is it the cheapest they could do while still maintaining somewhat of a resemblance to the original? I feel bad for all the people staying at the Poly who have to look at Disneys flagship pile of hot, steaming pooh (exterior wise).

Wow, I had no idea how horrible it is. The DVC add-on is just a parody of the original.