The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

The plethora of DVC sales kiosks throughout the property are pretty good evidence to any of us that don't have any statistics that DVC has a whole lot of impulse shoppers. If my company had the type of impulse buyers that Disney has with DVC, then I'd not only be living on an island, I'd own it as well by now.

I'm sure that is 100% true. We ended up at a DVC sales pitch. My Dfi is an impulse buyer, I am not.

After the pitch, I told him that I thought DVC was interesting and the rooms were nice. He started whipping out paperwork to continue with the purchase. When I stopped him and told him I wasn't committing to DVC and that I needed time to think about it and really run our finances... He went from friendly to pushy salesman real quick.

He said "What is there to think about? If you don't buy now, you will spend more money in the long run. You just spent about $1,200 at POR so why can't you afford $250 a month for 50 years of memories? ( yes, he really tried the memory thing.) So here, just fill out there paperwork and we will go ahead and approve you."

I kept insisting that I wasn't interested in buying into DVC right now. He basically turned away from me and began to speak to my Dfi, completely ignoring me.
My Dfi pointed out that he would like to join but I manage our finances so it was really up to me.

He kept asking why and I told him I wasn't going to drop that kind of money without even seeing what the resort was like in person (AKL), I wanted to see what the transportation was like before committing and etc.

The salesman just rolled his eye and eventually he gave up and ushered us out the door quickly.

He didn't seem used to people telling him no. We saw 3 other couples filling out the paperwork to join DVC on our way out.

 

[mgpan]

You forgot to add "For Me" to that sentence. You don't think AKL is worth staying at so of course you wouldn't think buying into DVC there would be a good deal. I know people get frustrated when someone says DVC doesn't work for everyone, but it is true. If @DisneyDenis thinks the AKL is worth staying at and wants to stay there anyway then to him he got a good deal by avoiding paying the cash rates. He didn't say he got a good deal compared to the motel 6 on International Drive.

Anyway, there are hundreds of threads already on whether DVC is worth buying into. This one shouldn't be turned into that.

Reread my post more carefully and you'll see a boatload of "For Me", "To Me", " I feel" and "in my opinions." You'll also see that I stated I like AKL and have no problem with the accommodations except it's price point as stated ($500+).

The point of the post is not whether DVC is worth buying into, that's for each person including DisneyDenis to decide, and he can spend his money as he wishes and on what makes him happy. My point is how an overpriced non-points cash stay can be utilized to justify and sell DVC because of "savings". With current plans stated in the original post and therefore topic of this thread, more regular rooms are to be converted to DVC which will reduce non-DVC availability. Artificially inflated demand may then be used to justify further price increases to rack rates and to limit discounting. These higher rack rate prices can then be used as a sales tactic to further justify DVC purchases. It's a vicious cycle. Not saying this is what will happen, but it's sets it up nicely don't you think?

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

This got me thinking (scary, I know).

I wonder how many DVC members are actually likely to spend less time in the parks than other guests? Or, at the very least, maybe they'd be less likely to spend on souvenirs, etc. After all, if they know they have prepaid or are mortgaging their trip(s), they most likely know that they will be back in the next year or two (aside from people who resell or rent out points, obviously). I would *think* they would generally be the guests with more of the attitude of, "if we don't get to do something this trip, there's always next time." Therefore, they might be more likely to forego that extra day on their ticket to go do other things offsite.

I have seen on other threads where DVC'ers have talked about using a DVC room for their trip and not going to the parks at all. I'm not claiming to have any idea how often that happens, but on some level, remarks of that kind only add to the idea that the parks feed the resorts and DVC, as @Lee has said, and not the other way around.

I was/am considering a DVC resale contract. I can you tell that it already crossed my mind to use the room and take trips to the other parks like Busch Gardens, SeaWorld, and Discovery Cove that we can never seem to fit into our WDW trips. Or just go and relax, maybe take advantage of the recreational activities and water parks.
Rent the points out and take a cruise. Or visit DL.
I could easily go to Orlando and just relax.

Being able to visit WDW parks wasn't even in my top 3 thoughts on why I should buy resale.

 

[cw1982]

I was/am considering a DVC resale contract. I can you tell that it already crossed my mind to use the room and take trips to the other parks like Busch Gardens, SeaWorld, and Discovery Cove that we can never seem to fit into our WDW trips. Or just go and relax, maybe take advantage of the recreational activities and water parks.
Rent the points out and take a cruise. Or visit DL.
I could easily go to Orlando and just relax.

Being able to visit WDW parks wasn't even in my top 3 thoughts on why I should buy resale.

I would wager that you're probably not alone in that thought process. To me, this shows two things:

1) DVC does not drive up WDW park admissions; if anything, it might actually be giving the rest of Orlando an economic boost.
2) It further proves that Disney investing in DVC is not going to promote the improvements that the parks need (after all, if increasing their most reliable customer base does not mean increasing park admission sales, and a good chunk of the other visitors don't come often enough to know how the parks used to be for a comparison point, then why should they bother spending a dime?)

I'm not saying I like that mentality, but on some level I can see how that discussion would occur.

 

[BernardandBianca]

Been wanting to pop in with this awhile ago, but by the time I had the opportunity it was five pages later, and the topic had moved on.

We bought DVC (Old Key West, still the best) in the first year it was available for non-Florida residents. Bought minimum points, and added on a couple of years later when they went on sale. These were the days when you were given length of stay passes for the parks with each stay. By the time Disney stopped providing the passes, we had done the calculation and determined that we had already received as much in returns as we had in payments, including maintenance fees, up through that time. So we figured we were golden at that point. All we had left were the maintenance fees.

Then work mandated a move to Central Florida, not Orlando but about one hour away. That changed the dynamic significantly. We no longer needed to stay at WDW; we just drove up for the day. After a couple of years of that, we were realizing that we took a couple of DCL cruises solely because we needed to use points or lose them. (Before we knew about renting the points.) That's when we decided that the ongoing and increasing maintenance fees were no longer justification for staying with DVC. So we opted to sell our points. (And the same decision for the Marriott Vacation Club weeks we also had.) Thankfully, we made money on our sales. Who would've thunk, we always heard that timeshares were losing propositions if selling.

Are we sorry we bought? Absolutely not, we really made them pay off for us. Are we sorry we sold? Absolutely not, glad we got out before the downward trend began. Now we go to DVC rooms when our friends visit, and are extremely disappointed with how DVC does their refurbishing. We saw the new Old Key West redo, and the immediate thought was that DVC cheaped out for no good reason (since the members paid for the refurb anyway via maintenance fees), and have devalued the look and feel of the resort. So if this is how DVC treats dedicated resorts, I wonder how badly they're going to treat those that are part of a "deluxe" hotel. I also am looking forward to seeing the point differences at the Poly between staying at the on-water bungalow, and a ground floor room facing the water - that ought to be good. Wonder how many points will be needed for a week's stay at the bungalow.

 

[flyerjab]

No doubt about it, I enjoy staying at Deluxe resorts. The proximity and old-school Disney charm (meaning no overdone plastic "theming") are great. I'm just saying the rack rates are ridiculous.

GF and Poly are fine if they aren't priced like a Ritz in Paris.

Agreed, and I did forget to add the price part at the end. For my family, this is what our big expense is each year. We live in Pennsylvania and the winters stink, especially as I get older. We like going to WDW because there is so much to do in terms of variety. But yes, it is crazy expensive to stay there.

It would appear, however, that the public is finally saying that they have had enough of the cost to stay in the Disney deluxe resorts. If what Spirit says is true, the conversion from regular hotel rooms to DVC is a sure sign of that.

 

[Bolna]

I would wager that you're probably not alone in that thought process. To me, this shows two things:

1) DVC does not drive up WDW park admissions; if anything, it might actually be giving the rest of Orlando an economic boost.
2) It further proves that Disney investing in DVC is not going to promote the improvements that the parks need (after all, if increasing their most reliable customer base does not mean increasing park admission sales, and a good chunk of the other visitors don't come often enough to know how the parks used to be for a comparison point, then why should they bother spending a dime?)

I'm not saying I like that mentality, but on some level I can see how that discussion would occur.

One of the indicators that DVC members don't visit the parks as much as Disney would like them to do is that twice in recent years Disney offered heavily discounted Premium APs for DVC members. To me this showed that they wanted to get those DVC members inside the parks where they most likely will end up spending more money on Disney property than if they spend their day offsite.

The other reason I see is that there could have been a large backlog of banked points that Disney wanted to clear out of the system. DVC members can bank current years points to use them in the coming year. They equally can borrow from next years allotment. If you have an AP it really makes sense to try to spend a lot of time at WDW while you have the AP, so you are likely to clear out any banked points you are carrying around with you, might even get a bit into borrowing. If a lot of members bank a lot of points the risk of them all wanting to use their points at the same time could create situations when it is very difficult to find a room and that makes members unhappy and then they complain to potential buyers. So it might have been in DVC's interest to get rid of the many banked points. I do think from what I have read that during the time when people could use the first AP offer it had indeed become more difficult to get a room.

 

[Cesar R M]

Even with 30% off, Disney's site (and Orbitz) still says $300+tax. Where did you see that price?

probably a private consolidator like GOGLOBAL or HOTELSPRO.

they sometimes drop the prices A LOT.

 

[COProgressFan]

Coming in to this thread late, but I was just thinking about the larger picture here -- that Disney can't sell deluxe hotel rooms anymore.

I believe someone referenced lower occupancy at the Contemporary during 4th of July week, like 60 or 70% or something like that. Now just stop and think about that. During one of the historically busiest periods of the year, with 50k+ guests per day visiting the MK a few hundred yards away, Walt Disney World (of all places!) can't sell the rooms.

If that doesn't spell management ineptitude I can't imagine what does. When the closest hotels to the MK, which hosts 17 or 18 million guests per year, can't fill rooms, you know there is some kind of fundamental problem. Disney likely sees it, but doesn't want to actually do anything about it, other than reduce inventory of those rooms that "can't sell".

There are literally thousands of guests every day who pass by the Contemp, Poly, and GF every day and think "How awesome would it be to stay there tonight" but never actually would because the pricing is so outrageous. But if rates were in line with what visitors were actually willing to pay, Disney wouldn't be in this boat to begin with.

Can you imagine how many international hotel chains would kill to have hotels in the locations of monorail resorts? I think it's a given that if Starwood or Hilton ran the Contemporary or Poly, there would be no need to convert to time shares, because they would make a killing from regular rooms. They certainly wouldn't let more than 20% of their rooms sit empty most nights.

But Disney does just that. It really boggles the mind.

 

[Mike S]

Yep, impulse indeed.
A lot of people still get the impression it is some kind of 'savings club'.
They are attracted to that without even realizing they are being netted into a time share racket.

I remember some years ago when DVC was starting out and really pushing that 'savings club' vibe in it's marketing.
I used to have friends ask me every so often if i 'joined that new club' since at that time i visited WDW a couple of times a year.
Back then it was hard to get straight answers as to what it was really all about...it was a bit vague from what i remember.
I can easily see how someone could be tricked into thinking this is some type of 'frequent shoppers' club, especially back then.

Today it is a little clearer as to what the real deal is, but most Guest Average visitors probably still get roped in and don't realize exactly what they are about to get themselves into.


Now if only Disney REALLY had something like a 'frequent visitors' club with benefits ( AP's don't count, especially in FL )
That would be great!

I wonder what kind of benefits I would get for visiting almost all my life. Would be nice to have discounts on my AP.

 

[stevehousse]

Coming in to this thread late, but I was just thinking about the larger picture here -- that Disney can't sell deluxe hotel rooms anymore.

I believe someone referenced lower occupancy at the Contemporary during 4th of July week, like 60 or 70% or something like that. Now just stop and think about that. During one of the historically busiest periods of the year, with 50k+ guests per day visiting the MK a few hundred yards away, Walt Disney World (of all places!) can't sell the rooms.

If that doesn't spell management ineptitude I can't imagine what does. When the closest hotels to the MK, which hosts 17 or 18 million guests per year, can't fill rooms, you know there is some kind of fundamental problem. Disney likely sees it, but doesn't want to actually do anything about it, other than reduce inventory of those rooms that "can't sell".

There are literally thousands of guests every day who pass by the Contemp, Poly, and GF every day and think "How awesome would it be to stay there tonight" but never actually would because the pricing is so outrageous. But if rates were in line with what visitors were actually willing to pay, Disney wouldn't be in this boat to begin with.

Can you imagine how many international hotel chains would kill to have hotels in the locations of monorail resorts? I think it's a given that if Starwood or Hilton ran the Contemporary or Poly, there would be no need to convert to time shares, because they would make a killing from regular rooms. They certainly wouldn't let more than 20% of their rooms sit empty most nights.

But Disney does just that. It really boggles the mind.

Wow how accurate is this post!!! Totally agree with what u say.

It's a shame though because those resorts back in the day, even though they were priced higher, were still in economic reach of most middle class America. My family used to always stay at Grand Flo when I was a kid, but once they reached $300 and more a night we started going mod and even value because as nice as the hotel was, it just wasn't worth it. It's crazy that they r up to what, $5-600 a night! And what's funny is that most "upper class" donnt even bother going to Disney world, as they would rather spend their money elsewhere. Who r these rooms catering to if the people u are trying to cater to don't even want to vacation there? You have to be a fool to actually stay there and pay those prices. For that price u can get a bubgalo style suite on the ocean in an exotic location for less...

 

[PhotoDave219]

If this is going to have to watch resorts then that means they're going to need deluxe amenities and to maintain their rooms with deluxe standard.

All of that costs more money than they are willing to spend.

 

[tirian]

There's another point we haven't mentioned: the majority of Deluxe rooms are sold at some sort of discount. Few GF and Poly rooms are actually sold at rack rate. When you need to discount to sell something, your prices are too high.

Coming in to this thread late, but I was just thinking about the larger picture here -- that Disney can't sell deluxe hotel rooms anymore.

I believe someone referenced lower occupancy at the Contemporary during 4th of July week, like 60 or 70% or something like that. Now just stop and think about that. During one of the historically busiest periods of the year, with 50k+ guests per day visiting the MK a few hundred yards away, Walt Disney World (of all places!) can't sell the rooms.

If that doesn't spell management ineptitude I can't imagine what does. When the closest hotels to the MK, which hosts 17 or 18 million guests per year, can't fill rooms, you know there is some kind of fundamental problem. Disney likely sees it, but doesn't want to actually do anything about it, other than reduce inventory of those rooms that "can't sell".

There are literally thousands of guests every day who pass by the Contemp, Poly, and GF every day and think "How awesome would it be to stay there tonight" but never actually would because the pricing is so outrageous. But if rates were in line with what visitors were actually willing to pay, Disney wouldn't be in this boat to begin with.

Can you imagine how many international hotel chains would kill to have hotels in the locations of monorail resorts? I think it's a given that if Starwood or Hilton ran the Contemporary or Poly, there would be no need to convert to time shares, because they would make a killing from regular rooms. They certainly wouldn't let more than 20% of their rooms sit empty most nights.

But Disney does just that. It really boggles the mind.

 

[Nemo14]

There's another point we haven't mentioned: the majority of Deluxe rooms are sold at some sort of discount. Few GF and Poly rooms are actually sold at rack rate. When you need to discount to sell something, your prices are too high.

It's the Disney way though. Jack up the room prices, then slightly discount them so people think they're getting a great deal. It's the same thing they did to food prices in order to sell the Dining Plan.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

It's the Disney way though. Jack up the room prices, then slightly discount them so people think they're getting a great deal. It's the same thing they did to food prices in order to sell the Dining Plan.

You got that right!
They reap the benefits of this twice.
DVC looks like a better deal when the nightly rate is $500 - $800.
And like you said, they offer discounts that make cash guest think they are getting a deal.

When I seen the GF going for $311 a night on Orbitz, I thought mmm that's what it should be PERIOD.
If I ever pay over $400 a night for any hotel, someone stop me! Please cut up all my credit & debit cards!

 

[COProgressFan]

It's the Disney way though. Jack up the room prices, then slightly discount them so people think they're getting a great deal. It's the same thing they did to food prices in order to sell the Dining Plan.

The Kohl's "always on sale" mentality must be doing great things to the supposed premium Disney brand. I'm sure they have metrics on that sort of thing. Did Spirit coin the term "Walt Discount World" or someone else?

Nothing like buying socks and a pair of pants and the receipt touts "You saved $87!" Really not much different from Disney's resort pricing. The numbers are meaningless.

 

[Funmeister]

@WDW1974 and @ParentsOf4

How close is DVC to a saturation point? Once it does reach critical mass....then what? I mean you can't easily convert those rooms back to hotel rooms. I would assume there would be contracts DIsney would have to buy out to get the rights back?
Is this truly a ticking time bomb?

 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

Just reading this, seems confusing. Glad I never stayed at a Disney resort. Seems I've saved myself trouble.

 

[Mike S]

dont think that way..

staying on disney property is still one of my fav things to do...

Yeah I've stayed at the values many times and will continue to do so. I do stay offsite sometimes too.

 

[tirian]

Just reading this, seems confusing. Glad I never stayed at a Disney resort. Seems I've saved myself trouble.

There are still good times and prices available. You just have to watch for the discounts at the moderates.