The Spirited 8th Wonder (WDW's Future & You!)

[manutdfan1]

If people are insulted, maybe they should behave better. We'd all like to think that every guest at WDW is just like all the Herb Ryman concept art but thats far from the truth. People at Deluxe resorts don't behave very well and these are exactly who Disney markets & caters to, resulting in a domino effect of problems. I'm talking about the Grand Floridian. I'm talking about Walt Disney World. Hell, even the New York Rangers behaved better than most guests at the Grand Floridian. (@71jason was there, he can back me up on that)

If suddenly being critical of the behavior of guests who attend Deluxe hotels is suddenly a verboten topic, then what is the point of a conversation about Disney Deluxe hotels in the first place?

Every observation I've made is based in truth and if the truth offends people, they came to the wrong forums.

I don't understand in general why you and @WDW1974 harp so much about the type of guest at any resort. What does that even mean? In my personal opinion, there is nothing about a person's appearance or behavior (within certain boundaries) that makes someone better than another. You both have a tendency to act like you're better than other people based on trivialities. Honestly, on the surface, it's like you've bought into this white-washed, privileged view of suburban America that only exists in advertisements and not reality.

Sorry if this is off topic, but there's many great points to make about the quality of the resort. The "quality of guest" arguments is, in my opinion, bigoted and self-righteous and has not place in resort comparison.

I value 99% of each of your posts, but the snide remarks here and there about "guest quality" have really gotten under my skin.

 

[WDW1974]

Answering this out of order because I have to get back to work shortly and I saw it pop up:

This is not an attack on you, I'm trying to get to the heart of where this thesis of "DVC is destroying WDW" came from. Because I think it has a lot to do with this concept (or call to arms?) of not spending.

DVC isn't what is destroying WDW: Disney P&R management that only cares about short term profits and overbuilds DVC and overprices its resorts while letting parks rot and making CMs live in poverty is destroying WDW.

Better?

Where DVC comes in is very simple. Look at WDW before DVC and what was spent and what was added and plussed and the level of quality at both the resorts and the parks from 1971-1991. Then, look at WDW when DVC was at WDW, but largely a minor component (say 1991-2001). Again, look at what was added to the parks and resorts and look at how they were maintained, look at the level of guest service ... ever heard of ''Every Guest is a VIP'' or ''We want to exceed every guest's expectations.'' ? ...You don't hear that in PR spin in the 21st century.

Now, look at WDW since DVC has exploded at the resort. Quality across the board is down. Parks are stale and neglected (for the most part before someone tosses in New Fantasyland), when things are added they are cheap and are style over substance (New Fantasyland anyone?)

DVC is about two things: short term profits and trapping people. It has been amazingly successful at that, even after the 2007-08 financial crisis (one I'd argue is still going on, but that's another matter).

DVC largely (no, not everyone ... not most everyone ... not saying YOU) appeals to impulse buyers who aren't the smartest bulbs when making financial decisions.

These folks in large part never stayed at WDW deluxe resorts, let alone truly world-class deluxe resorts, because ... well, because they didn't feel they belonged and couldn't afford to. Suddenly, you add them to resorts that were built to be upscale and attract upper middle class and above and ... you Walmart them. Bottom line, DVC lowers quality across the board for both timeshare and hotel guests. It cheapens the experience for everyone. (No, in real 5-star hotels, you don't put your shoes or your children's on the lobby sofas and tables while camping out over chicken finger and fry baskets ... you just don't.)

That you don't spend at WDW, you're saying something there loud and clear, and you do repeat that from time to time. But what are you calling for and why do you suppose we should follow if you are calling for that?

I spend as little as possible at WDW because I feel they don't deserve more of my money.

I'm a bit confused, though. What do you think I'm calling for since I don't recall ever calling for anything? And I'm not Jim Jones or Lou Mongello here ... I'm not asking for anyone to follow me. Read me, sure. Think about what I am saying, sure. Follow me? Nope, I'm not going into battle and when I do (like our military) I'll use precision drone-like strikes to take out my targets!

Those of us who spend at Disney are doing wrong? I can't maingate into the park or stay for free, there's no morality decision for me at all. I can go there or I cannot go there is my decision.

I can't make spending decisions for anyone but myself. Unless you are asking for advice and I am always willing to give that. I don't get maingated into WDW. You may have missed it but I have had a WDW AP since they started selling them in late 1982 when EPCOT opened. I don't look at it as a morality decision, either. I enjoy going and can justify the price (even if it has gone up $125 in five years) And I don't generally 'stay for free' unless I am staying with friends in the area ... so not at all sure what you are driving at.

What's your point?

EDIT: Just saw that you added a PS about 30 minutes after posting ...

 

[PhotoDave219]

I don't understand in general why you and @WDW1974 harp so much about the type of guest at any resort. What does that even mean? In my personal opinion, there is nothing about a person's appearance or behavior (within certain boundaries) that makes someone better than another. You both have a tendency to act like you're better than other people based on trivialities. Honestly, on the surface, it's like you've bought into this white-washed, privileged view of suburban America that only exists in advertisements and not reality.

Sorry if this is off topic, but there's many great points to make about the quality of the resort. The "quality of guest" arguments is, in my opinion, bigoted and self-righteous and has not place in resort comparison.

I value 99% of each of your posts, but the snide remarks here and there about "guest quality" have really gotten under my skin.

Why? Because I have an issue with how guests behave In the parks and resorts. I find a general lack of respect in society, even of themselves.

Now you'll excuse me but it's past my bedtime and those kids are on my lawn again....

 

[asianway]

@WDW1974, you have done it again. Well done. You're the best. The Disney careers web site has a new posting for a V.P. of Deluxe Resorts.

https://sjobs.brassring.com/tgwebhost/jobdetails.aspx?partnerid=25348&siteid=5039&jobid=204925

Nice to know they can't even get the keys right in the job description

 

[WDW1974]

I don't understand in general why you and @WDW1974 harp so much about the type of guest at any resort. What does that even mean? In my personal opinion, there is nothing about a person's appearance or behavior (within certain boundaries) that makes someone better than another. You both have a tendency to act like you're better than other people based on trivialities. Honestly, on the surface, it's like you've bought into this white-washed, privileged view of suburban America that only exists in advertisements and not reality.

Sorry if this is off topic, but there's many great points to make about the quality of the resort. The "quality of guest" arguments is, in my opinion, bigoted and self-righteous and has not place in resort comparison.

I value 99% of each of your posts, but the snide remarks here and there about "guest quality" have really gotten under my skin.

Don't really want to go OT in this direction and people always feel like they are being singled out ... BUT in almost 40 years of visiting WDW, I feel pretty safe in saying that in my experiences guests have never been cruder, never baser, never more boorish, never trashier (regardless of how much money they have or level of resort they stay at) than they are right now. That's an opinion, and you may not like it but that is my experience. ... I'll also say flat out that UNI resorts TODAY attract a much higher level, more sophisticated and classier traveler than WDW resorts. Just observations ... but like I said, I have been visiting since 1974 and I do travel extensively, so I see a lot of good, bad and ugly.

And the WDW guest of 2014 isn't the WDW guest of 1974, 1984, 1994 ... WDW attracts a much lower element today than it once did.

 

[asianway]

I don't understand in general why you and @WDW1974 harp so much about the type of guest at any resort. What does that even mean? In my personal opinion, there is nothing about a person's appearance or behavior (within certain boundaries) that makes someone better than another. You both have a tendency to act like you're better than other people based on trivialities. Honestly, on the surface, it's like you've bought into this white-washed, privileged view of suburban America that only exists in advertisements and not reality.

Sorry if this is off topic, but there's many great points to make about the quality of the resort. The "quality of guest" arguments is, in my opinion, bigoted and self-righteous and has not place in resort comparison.

I value 99% of each of your posts, but the snide remarks here and there about "guest quality" have really gotten under my skin.

If the quality of guest were higher, Disney would not be allowed to get away with the lowering quality they have the past 20 years. Case closed

 

[Nemo14]

If the quality of guest were higher, Disney would not be allowed to get away with the lowering quality they have the past 20 years. Case closed

So which came first?

 

[CinematicFusion]

Don't really want to go OT in this direction and people always feel like they are being singled out ... BUT in almost 40 years of visiting WDW, I feel pretty safe in saying that in my experiences guests have never been cruder, never baser, never more boorish, never trashier (regardless of how much money they have or level of resort they stay at) than they are right now. That's an opinion, and you may not like it but that is my experience. ... I'll also say flat out that UNI resorts TODAY attract a much higher level, more sophisticated and classier traveler than WDW resorts. Just observations ... but like I said, I have been visiting since 1974 and I do travel extensively, so I see a lot of good, bad and ugly.

And the WDW guest of 2014 isn't the WDW guest of 1974, 1984, 1994 ... WDW attracts a much lower element today than it once did.

So what is your opinion as to why trashier less sophisticated people are visiting Disney and a more sophisticated higher class individual is visiting universal?

 

[cw1982]

I don't understand in general why you and @WDW1974 harp so much about the type of guest at any resort. What does that even mean? In my personal opinion, there is nothing about a person's appearance or behavior (within certain boundaries) that makes someone better than another. You both have a tendency to act like you're better than other people based on trivialities. Honestly, on the surface, it's like you've bought into this white-washed, privileged view of suburban America that only exists in advertisements and not reality.

Sorry if this is off topic, but there's many great points to make about the quality of the resort. The "quality of guest" arguments is, in my opinion, bigoted and self-righteous and has not place in resort comparison.

I value 99% of each of your posts, but the snide remarks here and there about "guest quality" have really gotten under my skin.

Maybe I'm missing something (wouldn't be the first time), but from the posts I've read, it sounded more like they were making generalized comments about guest behavior. If one's behavior doesn't define them, then what does?

I would be completely on board with you if they were saying that Disney should be outpricing the poor or making other status-related comments, but @PhotoDave219 even said the behavior of guests he was witnessing at the freaking Grand Floridian, one of the most uppity (and expensive) resorts on property, was atrocious. If the people who are paying to stay at GF are notably behaving poorly and acting classless, then this is clearly NOT a class/money issue... at least based on what I've read.

What makes this even more ironic is that @WDW1974 just noted that guest behavior is typically better at Universal, where admission (beyond the price of a one-day park hopper) costs less and the resorts are generally more affordable as well, at least in my experience. So again, I don't see either of them saying this is a status thing, nor do I think that was ever the intent from the discussion, even coming from the posts that were deleted earlier; this seems to be something that Disney is encouraging one way or the other, possibly without realizing it. Maybe it's the whole "sense of entitlement" thing?

ETA: as @PrincessNelly_NJ pointed out earlier, there are other threads that show that others feel that way; this idea is not limited to the people on this thread.

Try this one, for example:
http://forums.wdwmagic.com/threads/...de-guests-getting-their-just-desserts.277931/

 

[Disneyhead'71]

OK, so the big news is TDO is converting more "Deluxe" rooms to timeshares.

-_-

 

[omurice]

Answering this out of order because I have to get back to work shortly and I saw it pop up:



DVC isn't what is destroying WDW: Disney P&R management that only cares about short term profits and overbuilds DVC and overprices its resorts while letting parks rot and making CMs live in poverty is destroying WDW.

Better?

Where DVC comes in is very simple. Look at WDW before DVC and what was spent and what was added and plussed and the level of quality at both the resorts and the parks from 1971-1991. Then, look at WDW when DVC was at WDW, but largely a minor component (say 1991-2001). Again, look at what was added to the parks and resorts and look at how they were maintained, look at the level of guest service ... ever heard of ''Every Guest is a VIP'' or ''We want to exceed every guest's expectations.'' ? ...You don't hear that in PR spin in the 21st century.

Now, look at WDW since DVC has exploded at the resort. Quality across the board is down. Parks are stale and neglected (for the most part before someone tosses in New Fantasyland), when things are added they are cheap and are style over substance (New Fantasyland anyone?)

DVC is about two things: short term profits and trapping people. It has been amazingly successful at that, even after the 2007-08 financial crisis (one I'd argue is still going on, but that's another matter).

DVC largely (no, not everyone ... not most everyone ... not saying YOU) appeals to impulse buyers who aren't the smartest bulbs when making financial decisions.

These folks in large part never stayed at WDW deluxe resorts, let alone truly world-class deluxe resorts, because ... well, because they didn't feel they belonged and couldn't afford to. Suddenly, you add them to resorts that were built to be upscale and attract upper middle class and above and ... you Walmart them. Bottom line, DVC lowers quality across the board for both timeshare and hotel guests. It cheapens the experience for everyone. (No, in real 5-star hotels, you don't put your shoes or your children's on the lobby sofas and tables while camping out over chicken finger and fry baskets ... you just don't.)



I spend as little as possible at WDW because I feel they don't deserve more of my money.

I'm a bit confused, though. What do you think I'm calling for since I don't recall ever calling for anything? And I'm not Jim Jones or Lou Mongello here ... I'm not asking for anyone to follow me. Read me, sure. Think about what I am saying, sure. Follow me? Nope, I'm not going into battle and when I do (like our military) I'll use precision drone-like strikes to take out my targets!



I can't make spending decisions for anyone but myself. Unless you are asking for advice and I am always willing to give that. I don't get maingated into WDW. You may have missed it but I have had a WDW AP since they started selling them in late 1982 when EPCOT opened. I don't look at it as a morality decision, either. I enjoy going and can justify the price (even if it has gone up $125 in five years) And I don't generally 'stay for free' unless I am staying with friends in the area ... so not at all sure what you are driving at.

What's your point?

I was driving at, it seemed like the thesis of the thread is "DVC is destroying WDW", but was trying to figure out why. Or if that had anything to do with not giving Disney money, our own spending habits etc. These things seem related, because that money they're potentially mis-using, that's all from you and me...

Not saying you're wrong, really trying to grapple with it in my own head. I don't hate DVC, it seems like something to utilize, it's not always in our favor, but it is something terribly useful, and can save some cash if you go to WDW a lot.

It seemed like you were calling people to action, want people to stop spending on DVC, want the management to wake up and stop relying too much on DVC.

And whenever you say you spend as little as possible on Disney, my own personal hot button voice alarm inside me goes off "I'm spending too much on Disney!", so that riles me up a little.

But reporting all this news/rumor about DVC cannibalizing our resorts for better or worse, some of which are beloved...
That's NOT a call to action?

What should we do with the news of what is happening, if not get riled up and do something? At least write a strongly worded letter. What they did at GF is terrible, wedding pavillion backyard apartment tower, is what it looks like. Don't like what they're doing at Poly. I'm really not thrilled about what they might do to WL either.

Does TDO even read strongly worded letters, anymore?

 

[GoofGoof]

So what is your opinion as to why trashier less sophisticated people are visiting Disney and a more sophisticated higher class individual is visiting universal?

No DVC at Universal

 

[Rodan75]

I think the point a lot of people are ignoring is that the Deluxe Customers are the target DVC Customers. If you look at @ParentsOf4 analysis from the opposite perspective, Disney has to expand DVC to the Deluxe resorts if it continues to poach Deluxe customers and convert them to DVC.

I don't view this as a tragedy, this is simply adjusting their inventory to align with what the customers are doing. DVC is successful right now and they are rallying around that strategy. If this is the wrong strategy or if the market changes I expect that TWDC will adjust accordingly.

 

[flynnibus]

What makes this even more ironic is that @WDW1974 just noted that guest behavior is typically better at Universal, where admission (beyond the price of a one-day park hopper) costs less and the resorts are generally more affordable as well, at least in my experience

It's not about money IMO - but the fact Disney let's guests walk all over them. Combine that with the direction society is heading ("everyone owes me!!") and you can see which way the slide points.

Stuffy, proper places stay that way because of expectations.. expectations that are usually re-affirmed through constraints and enforcement. Two things Disney has been eager to reduce or eliminate entirely over the last 15 years.

 

[Disneyhead'71]

So what is your opinion as to why trashier less sophisticated people are visiting Disney and a more sophisticated higher class individual is visiting universal?

My guess is that a lot of Universal's current clientele were formerly WDW's. I know that I have jumped ship to Universal and I am a 50 year old who likes plush resorts, fine dining, great themeing, and most importantly when talking about a theme park resort vacation, state of the art compelling attractions. I have been going to WDW since '71 and to look at the place as it is today is saddening and for the extent of the upcoming additions, I see a lot more DVC and Shopping and not a lot of attractions. Therefore I have a one day trip to DAK penciled in sometime in 2017.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

So what is your opinion as to why trashier less sophisticated people are visiting Disney and a more sophisticated higher class individual is visiting universal?

Probably because WDW guest were priced out of Universal resorts. Until Cabana Bay, you only had the option of deluxe hotels. Most WDW visitors can't even afford discounted rates at the Disney Deluxe hotels, let alone a non discounted hotel at Universal.
We've often paid for an extra night at our disney hotel and just took a taxi to Universal because it was cheaper.
This year, I just paid $380 for one night at the Hard Rock at Universal. I wish it was cheaper but oh well....

 

[cw1982]

It's not about money IMO - but the fact Disney let's guests walk all over them. Combine that with the direction society is heading ("everyone owes me!!") and you can see which way the slide points.

Stuffy, proper places stay that way because of expectations.. expectations that are usually re-affirmed through constraints and enforcement. Two things Disney has been eager to reduce or eliminate entirely over the last 15 years.

The part I bolded in your post was exactly my point, especially it not being about money but rather about society feeling entitled or owed something. You just said it far more concisely than I did

On some level, I think we're all saying the same thing, just with different tones.

 

[PrincessNelly_NJ]

I think the point a lot of people are ignoring is that the Deluxe Customers are the target DVC Customers. If you look at @ParentsOf4 analysis from the opposite perspective, Disney has to expand DVC to the Deluxe resorts if it continues to poach Deluxe customers and convert them to DVC.

I don't view this as a tragedy, this is simply adjusting their inventory to align with what the customers are doing. DVC is successful right now and they are rallying around that strategy. If this is the wrong strategy or if the market changes I expect that TWDC will adjust accordingly.

That's not true. When we went to a DVC sales pitch back in May. They did nothing but push the attitude that you could stay Deluxe for less than what you paid for Port Orleans Riverside. That because we always stay in moderates, wouldn't it be nice to have an opportunity to stay Deluxe, not once but everytime we came to Disney parks.
They were trying to sell me the "opportunity" to stay somewhere we had only "dreamed" of staying.

 

[bhg469]

Hell, even the New York Rangers behaved better than most guests at the Grand Floridian. (@71jason was there, he can back me up on that)

Well obviously, they aren't the flyers!

 

[Brian Noble]

Just one last point on the UNI tidbit that I teased on the first page.

I'll go into depth more (likely over the weekend, but if I disappear for a few days ... please, don't fill this with BS and rants about be promising!) but have talked a lot to some friends who work for UNI and (this may or may not be a surprise ... folks here all have varying degrees of knowledge about the business of parks) and understand this: Disney, at the highest levels, knew exactly (and I do mean exactly) what UNI was building in Potter 2.0 when the shark was still lurking in Amity.

They knew. They were aware. They had chances to put things on a fast track. And what you have is New Fantasyland, new DVC and MM+ ... (please, I'm begging here, don't take this into a compare and contrast the companies deal ... we've done that in approximately 6,569,900 threads here!) ... But there are no secrets in the business at the highest levels and it was well known what would happen (probably well before I even put it out there).

Now that we've seen the new area open...I'm not sure that TWDC is wrong to play it soft. Hogsmeade is incredible. The only domestic land I would compare to it is Radiator Springs in DCA, which is also stunning. And, while I have not seen it yet, it looks like Diagon is even better. But....Diagon does not yet seem to be pulling in the people in huge numbers in the way that Hogsmeade did. Yes, EFG has an insane line, but some of that seems to be due to poor operations/uptime, and the rest of the land is not over-run. Granted, some of that is due to more foresight in planning for guest flow, etc., but Diagon does not seem to be the complete game-changer that Hogsmeade was.