The Shanghai Disneyland effect on our 3.5 billion

doctornick

Well-Known Member
But how long did it take for earth to start being shovelled on Avatar? Two years? Three? We haven't even had the announcement of anything yet, so if we're a couple of years away from construction starting, Shanghai will be long open before the first digger arrives.

The plans for DHS are surely much further along than the Avatar ones were when they were announced. WDI has already been working on plans for any DHS additions for a while now -- for Avatar, they found out at the same time as the rest of us.
 

Captain Neo

Well-Known Member
Uh, money will already be allocated and dirt will have moved....

Companies can still slash budgets long after funds have been allocated and dirt has been moved. Just look at some of the rides at Shanghai that have had this problem (Like the lost river rapids ride). I'm not saying its going to happen but if Shanghai is a disaster than the company will be looking for everywhere they can cut costs to try and nullify the impact on the bottom line.
 

RR 88

Member
Though I'm pretty knowledgable in economics and the other social sciences, I've never taken an official accounting or finance course and have spent my entire working life in education; so feel free rip my take on this issue:

I see this huge capex expenditure as a realization/confirmation that some in the upper levels of Disney management realize that they've leveraged WDW as much as they can through cost cutting, price increases, and attempts to manipulate consumer behavior. In order to get a better ROI, they've decided to actually allocate significant resources to increase revenue at WDW, and DHS in particular, through building new attractions. If this budget has truly been approved, it shows that Disney believes the new projects will bring a significant ROI, and it must be pretty significant if Bob I hate spending $ on WDW Iger felt comfortable bringing it to the Board. Therefore, even if Shanghai does flounder in its opening years, I don't see Disney pulling money away from the projects at WDW, as each dollar pulled from WDW would need to go somewhere with a higher ROI in order to make financial sense for the company. And it typically is not wise to throw good money after bad.

To make matters worse, WDW has stagnated so long, especially DHS, that a half baked Star Wars land or Pixar land could have a very negative impact on Disney's public image and by extension, bottom line. There are already enough people who are upset that the DHS they once loved is a shell of its former self. Hopefully, a well executed Pixar and Star Wars land will win those guests back, or at least be offset by a larger increase in Star Wars/Pixar fanatics. However, each hypothetical dollar that Disney pulls from the redo, would be one dollar closer to Disney Jar-Jar'ing themselves and creating a hollow and soulless Pixar/Star Wars experience. This would not only lead to poor PR, but would result in being despised by former Hollywood Studios fans and rabid Star Wars fans alike.

Finally, if Shanghai does struggle, I think that Disney would want to hide its struggles as much as possible to prevent embarrassment and actual difficult questioning from shareholders (which is one thing it seems very capable of...) Slashing the budget of what I'm sure will be a highly anticipated and publicized Star Wars/Pixar expansion, would reek too much of desperation, weakness,and admittance of failure.

For these reasons, I think the budget will be pretty safe. The real test will be how efficiently the massive budget will be put to use.

Again, I'm no business wiz kid (not everyone can be a Tom Staggs), but those are my thoughts.
 

Goofnut1980

Well-Known Member
Begin rant: (which is rare for me) The thing that irritates me with TDO of late is they hire 4 workers to complete an attraction or land. I mean seriously it took them 3 years for Mine Train but they built all of the Magic Kingdom in less than 2 years. Yes they had to work around an open park but dang... Plus look how long the hub has taken.

By the time the expansions they do are complete, Uni's Harry Potterland will be demolished and turned into something else that is the new fad. They hire people that get the job done. I can say from seeing both of the HP lands - impressive.

Now with that said, it sort of makes me mad to see the technology and imaginations they have when they want them for SDL. Watching the videos on YouTube that Disney posted this week was sort of a slap in the face... like - we can do this if we want to... I don't think they duplicated one thing from a domestic park. But here in the good ol USA, east coast and west coast receive duplicates when they need to add a quick attraction. For example - Soarin'. The only reason we may see a new movie 11-12 years later is because the newest park is getting it. Which mind you, other than rumors, Disney has not said a word of it actually happening. Have they even mentioned the addition of a 3rd theatre to enhance the experience for more guests.

I understand Disney only has a 44% stake in SDL but they have pulled out all of the stops. We just want to have some empty buildings filled with something. Even a store would be better than nothing at all. They own 44 square miles (prob less now with annexes) Something should always be in the works. It becomes stagnant for folks. They know most Americans will not travel all the way to SDL but if you don't create new experiences and happenings right here at home, people will stop going.

I love going to DL and WDW but seeing new things is always a plus. That is why the trip we took in May, we went to Uni and dropped $500 for 2 people for one day at their parks.. and took that money away from Disney. We wanted to experience something different. I will say, it wasn't breathtaking but it was nice to try something new. It also took $500 out of Disney's pocket.

If whatever secrets Disney is holding onto, they need to get some things in motion. Do it now and do it right. If the money needs spent to make the wow factor, please don't hold back. :end rant :)
 

bakntime

Well-Known Member
Begin rant: (which is rare for me) The thing that irritates me with TDO of late is they hire 4 workers to complete an attraction or land. I mean seriously it took them 3 years for Mine Train but they built all of the Magic Kingdom in less than 2 years. Yes they had to work around an open park but dang... Plus look how long the hub has taken.

By the time the expansions they do are complete, Uni's Harry Potterland will be demolished and turned into something else that is the new fad. They hire people that get the job done. I can say from seeing both of the HP lands - impressive.
New Fantasyland sort of went in phases, I think because the Seven Dwarfs was a later addition to the plans. The originally released plans included more of a Pixie-based area, with a spinner ride similar to the Mater ride at DCA. That portion was scrapped in favor of Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. Little Mermaid and Be Our Guest ended up opening in 2012, at which time Seven Dwarfs had barely broken ground. Upward construction began quite late in 2012 and it opened in May 2014, so it took under two years to complete.

Wizarding World at IOA took 2.5 years to complete after ground broke. The Diagon Alley construction took a full two years to complete even after Jaws had been leveled.

There seems to be this notion that Universal completes things in record-breaking time, but I think it's an exaggeration. They might be slightly faster than WDW, but looking at the numbers there aren't many comparable projects in recent history to make much of a conclusion. The scope and size of the Avatar project (from a construction/landscaping/rockwork point of view) is definitely larger than either of the Potter expansions. We'll see how long it takes from groundbreaking to finish, but it's expected to be a total of perhaps just a bit over 3 years. In comparison to Wizarding World's 2.5 years, that's pretty reasonable.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
Well everything we're hearing is that DHS will be done in phases with Star Wars being last. We saw what Paris did to spending. And what the Magic Bands did to spending. Shanghai opens next year and they will just be starting DHS expansion and will be how many years out from completion. If Shanghai opens as a failure I could definitely see us getting budget cuts to ease some of the stock holders pain.

Oh yeah if SDL flops TWDC will redirect all its efforts and cash to SDL, In the end I think this 'expansion budget' is just a huge head fake so that there are contingency funds to bail out SDL without actually tagging them as such.

Biggest indicator is no permits have been pulled even for demolition at DHS other than the 'announced' closings - there is lot's of stuff backstage to be demo'ed and since no action has been taken even for THAT stuff, Connect the dots and see what you come up with.
 

ford91exploder

Resident Curmudgeon
New Fantasyland sort of went in phases, I think because the Seven Dwarfs was a later addition to the plans. The originally released plans included more of a Pixie-based area, with a spinner ride similar to the Mater ride at DCA. That portion was scrapped in favor of Seven Dwarfs Mine Train. Little Mermaid and Be Our Guest ended up opening in 2012, at which time Seven Dwarfs had barely broken ground. Upward construction began quite late in 2012 and it opened in May 2014, so it took under two years to complete.

Wizarding World at IOA took 2.5 years to complete after ground broke. The Diagon Alley construction took a full two years to complete even after Jaws had been leveled.

There seems to be this notion that Universal completes things in record-breaking time, but I think it's an exaggeration. They might be slightly faster than WDW, but looking at the numbers there aren't many comparable projects in recent history to make much of a conclusion. The scope and size of the Avatar project (from a construction/landscaping/rockwork point of view) is definitely larger than either of the Potter expansions. We'll see how long it takes from groundbreaking to finish, but it's expected to be a total of perhaps just a bit over 3 years. In comparison to Wizarding World's 2.5 years, that's pretty reasonable.

Hmm 5 years for the kiddie coaster in NFL... I think you are being generous on Disney's construction speed, Kong is going to be 18 months from announce to open.
 

Piebald

Well-Known Member
Budgets, how do they work?

On a side note, just returned from China for work and realize why my workers live off protein bars when they're there. And I thought they were ignorant sissies and I could eat the food. To say the food is atrocious is an understatement.
 

Goofyernmost

Well-Known Member
Seriously, are you folks not aware of politics at all. This Disney project is mostly owned, operated and backed by the Chinese Government. If the Government tells them to go, they will go. There isn't a possibility that it won't be successful. That is the least of Disney's worries. Now if China says to big Bob, hey, thanks for your help, we've got this, bu-bye, write if you get work, etc. then Disney will have to suck it up, but, it will only affect money that has already been spent, which has no direct, legitimate, bearing on what is being spent and will be spent in the future.
 

Matt7187

Well-Known Member
Hmm 5 years for the kiddie coaster in NFL... I think you are being generous on Disney's construction speed, Kong is going to be 18 months from announce to open.
But how long was Kong under development/construction before the official announcement? Disney just announces things the second they decide to do it, whether they know what exactly they are going to build or not (Avatar). Universal waits until they are already 1/3 done with construction before they announce, so obviously the from announcement to completion time will be shorter for Universal than Disney. And I'm pretty sure that the "kiddie coaster" wasn't even part of the plan until around 2012, so it wasn't 5 years.
 

bakntime

Well-Known Member
Hmm 5 years for the kiddie coaster in NFL... I think you are being generous on Disney's construction speed, Kong is going to be 18 months from announce to open.
Do you simply not read the posts you quote? I gave the timeline in my post: Seven Dwarfs mine train started building the framework (vertical construction of track supports -- there's a video on youtube of December 2012 showing the very beginnings of steel supports in the ground) in late 2012 (I think it might have been November-ish), and the ride opened in May of 2014. That's around a year and a half.
 
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bakntime

Well-Known Member
Land was being cleared for Kong in Feb of 2014. The skeleton of the show building was done some time around Oct 2014. It's scheduled to open in "Summer" of 2016, which if that holds, is anywhere from June to September. That's a total of over two years since groundbreaking, possibly 2.5 years or more depending on when it actually opens.
 
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Skooterkid

Well-Known Member
I've been living here in Shanghai for 6 months and there's a kind of implicit excitement around the whole thing. It's definitely not advertised or spoken about much but everyone is aware it's happening. When the Disney Store first opened it was very popular, and I lined up for around 10 minutes to get in. Now the lines are diminishing, though it is still popular. There are also about 20 cashiers, though last time I visited only about 4 of them were in operation. But I think the Shanghainese are excited about the park opening, though park numbers may indeed drop after the initial opening, as in DLP and DLHK (which are both very pleasant to visit most days considering the low crowds, though it is selfish of me to hope happens here in DLS!)
 

brb1006

Well-Known Member
I just hope once the park finally opens. They fake Disney park somewhere in China might finally lose some visitors.
 

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