News The Seas pavilion new color scheme

[Animaniac93-98]

I was hoping for a new sign that would match the newer EPCOT graphics.

 

[flyerjab]

it is nice to see that element return...now if they could just bring back the Sea Cabs and send Nemo and his crowd back to the reef....

I know that Imagination is the Pavilion most people complain about regarding the current status of the attraction. But I put the Nemo ride at the same level of dissatisfaction. When we go to Epcot, we ride everything but those two attractions. I think that the Nemo ride is so underwhelming. I wouldn’t mind if they use Nemo as the IP, but it would be so easy to make it a more educational experience, and a much better dark ride.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

I know that Imagination is the Pavilion most people complain about regarding the current status of the attraction. But I put the Nemo ride at the same level of dissatisfaction. When we go to Epcot, we ride everything but those two attractions. I think that the Nemo ride is so underwhelming. I wouldn’t mind if they use Nemo as the IP, but it would be so easy to make it a more educational experience, and a much better dark ride.

Yes, The Seas needs help. Basically no one cares about Nemo anymore, and the fact it’s a lazy retread of the movie doesn’t help.

What they should do is build the Poseidon dark ride concept from the early 80s. With todays screen and projection mapping tech, it could be a real stunner of an experience, not to mention more appropriate for EPCOT.

 

[flyerjab]

Yes, The Seas needs help. Basically no one cares about Nemo anymore, and the fact it’s a lazy retread of the movie doesn’t help.

What they should do is build the Poseidon dark ride concept from the early 80s. With todays screen and projection mapping tech, it could be a real stunner of an experience, not to mention more appropriate for EPCOT.

I never experienced 80’s or 90’s Epcot. Honestly, the first trip to WDW was 2009, so I apparently missed quite a bit. Aside from the aquarium I don’t even know what else was in this Pavilion. I hear people reference the hydrolators and Sea Base Alpha. What was this Pavilion like before Nemo?

 

[_caleb]

I never experienced 80’s or 90’s Epcot. Honestly, the first trip to WDW was 2009, so I apparently missed quite a bit. Aside from the aquarium I don’t even know what else was in this Pavilion. I hear people reference the hydrolators and Sea Base Alpha. What was this Pavilion like before Nemo?

 

[Bocabear]

There was something compelling and wonderful about the original iteration of this pavilion... the short film about the formation of the seas was great, informative, and was a real teaching moment...
Try to Imagine...Just for a moment... A future of amazing technological creativity...A future of incredible adventure and discovery... A future of remarkable awareness and understanding...Try to imagine...for we welcome you now to take the first steps into that future....We welcome you to the Living Seas... We welcome you... to Seabase Alpha.
What a moment! Thrilling...goosebumps.....Dramatic, beautifully written and planned... now replaced by cartoon fish... Don't imagine anything... just look for Nemo and move on to the next pavilion...
so very sad...

 

[Haymarket2008]

I know that Imagination is the Pavilion most people complain about regarding the current status of the attraction. But I put the Nemo ride at the same level of dissatisfaction. When we go to Epcot, we ride everything but those two attractions. I think that the Nemo ride is so underwhelming. I wouldn’t mind if they use Nemo as the IP, but it would be so easy to make it a more educational experience, and a much better dark ride.

Agreed. I brought my friends to WDW this year (they haven’t been in 20+ years) and they said that Nemo was in their top 2 worst attractions they experienced. I’m not as big of a hater, but the pavilion as a whole needs a major refresh. The ride is very quickly turning into a pass for me.

 

[_caleb]

There was something compelling and wonderful about the original iteration of this pavilion... the short film about the formation of the seas was great, informative, and was a real teaching moment...
Try to Imagine...Just for a moment... A future of amazing technological creativity...A future of incredible adventure and discovery... A future of remarkable awareness and understanding...Try to imagine...for we welcome you now to take the first steps into that future....We welcome you to the Living Seas... We welcome you... to Seabase Alpha.
What a moment! Thrilling...goosebumps.....Dramatic, beautifully written and planned... now replaced by cartoon fish... Don't imagine anything... just look for Nemo and move on to the next pavilion...
so very sad...

Except it did sort of lose its luster over the years. As attention spans got shorter, people didn't want to wait to watch the (standard definition) video, which felt aged. They started letting people skip the video, which led to lines at the fake elevators, which everyone realized did not actually go anywhere. The big reveal was lost in rush to see the fish. The whole place was left to become a bit shabby and worn, with that classic Orlando mildew smell dialed up by the moisture from the aquarium's leaky seams.

Meanwhile, aquariums across the country stepped up their games (perhaps in response to Epcot). Baltimore's 5-story has an indoor rainforest at the top, with waterfalls feeding the tanks. Many added artificial tide pools and hands-on educational exhibits. Shark tunnels became pretty common, and Seattle and Monterey have aquariums that open to the sea.

I promise I'm not trying to yuck anyone's yum here, just pointing out that what many of use are nostalgic for was fleeting.

 

[hpyhnt 1000]

There was something compelling and wonderful about the original iteration of this pavilion... the short film about the formation of the seas was great, informative, and was a real teaching moment...
Try to Imagine...Just for a moment... A future of amazing technological creativity...A future of incredible adventure and discovery... A future of remarkable awareness and understanding...Try to imagine...for we welcome you now to take the first steps into that future....We welcome you to the Living Seas... We welcome you... to Seabase Alpha.
What a moment! Thrilling...goosebumps.....Dramatic, beautifully written and planned... now replaced by cartoon fish... Don't imagine anything... just look for Nemo and move on to the next pavilion...
so very sad...

Indeed. The Living Seas was WDI at the top of its game. It was a masterclass in crowd management, story pacing, and theming. And, as you point out, so many memorable lines from that opening film.

Also remember that, at the time, the pavilion was the largest saltwater aquarium in the world. Like much of early EPCOT, the building itself was designed to make a statement, to be an example of what the company was capable of creating.

The original pavilion was from an era when Disney was about more than just lazy IP overlays and franchise acquisitions and “synergy.”

 

[osian]

I never experienced 80’s or 90’s Epcot. Honestly, the first trip to WDW was 2009, so I apparently missed quite a bit. Aside from the aquarium I don’t even know what else was in this Pavilion. I hear people reference the hydrolators and Sea Base Alpha. What was this Pavilion like before Nemo?

Sea Base Alpha is the main pavilion inside, it's meant to be an actual research/exploration facility at the bottom of the ocean. You ride the "hydrolators" (sea elevators) from the entrance down to the sea floor then board the Sea Cabs which take you through a glass tunnel on the ocean floor out into the facility, where you can learn about ocean life.

Now you have an attraction that re-tells the story of the Disney cartoon Finding Nemo in a very abridged form, which ends in an aquarium where you can interact with a virtual character from the movie.

Which storytelling was more magic?

 

[Bocabear]

Except it did sort of lose its luster over the years. As attention spans got shorter, people didn't want to wait to watch the (standard definition) video, which felt aged. They started letting people skip the video, which led to lines at the fake elevators, which everyone realized did not actually go anywhere. The big reveal was lost in rush to see the fish. The whole place was left to become a bit shabby and worn, with that classic Orlando mildew smell dialed up by the moisture from the aquarium's leaky seams.

Meanwhile, aquariums across the country stepped up their games (perhaps in response to Epcot). Baltimore's 5-story has an indoor rainforest at the top, with waterfalls feeding the tanks. Many added artificial tide pools and hands-on educational exhibits. Shark tunnels became pretty common, and Seattle and Monterey have aquariums that open to the sea.

I promise I'm not trying to yuck anyone's yum here, just pointing out that what many of use are nostalgic for was fleeting.

So why not re-cut the film , change the narrator, freshen up the footage...The story is still compelling... it is just the way they are telling it... Add some in-theater effects, but that movie is the setup to the whole pavilion...
THe Hydrolators were an integral part of the story....and most people loved them...
When the Omnimover portion was shut down most of the time is when it seemed like they also started skipping the movie...
The Living Seas was one of my favorites...the most complete storytelling and most transportive of the early pavilions...
and the story is still relevant...
Nemo aged out way worse than the original concept did...

 

[_caleb]

Sea Base Alpha is the main pavilion inside, it's meant to be an actual research/exploration facility at the bottom of the ocean. You ride the "hydrolators" (sea elevators) from the entrance down to the sea floor then board the Sea Cabs which take you through a glass tunnel on the ocean floor out into the facility, where you can learn about ocean life.

Now you have an attraction that re-tells the story of the Disney cartoon Finding Nemo in a very abridged form, which ends in an aquarium where you can interact with a virtual character from the movie.

Which storytelling was more magic?

I'm not sure why, but I find myself reacting to posts like yours. I was lucky enough to have experienced The Living Seas and SeaBase Alpha. It was indeed awesome, and great immersive storytelling. At the time.

It was not timeless. You literally had to be there to get that feeling many of us feel so fondly of. But by "there," I don't mean The Living Seas Pavilion; I mean the 1980s and 90s. You had to live in a time where things took time, you did not have unlimited access to information, and society wasn't addicted to entertainment. Otherwise–and please do check out Martin's amazing video I shared above–it did not hold up as well against changes in society as other Imagineering efforts.

 

[_caleb]

So why not re-cut the film , change the narrator, freshen up the footage...The story is still compelling... it is just the way they are telling it... Add some in-theater effects, but that movie is the setup to the whole pavilion...
THe Hydrolators were an integral part of the story....and most people loved them...
When the Omnimover portion was shut down most of the time is when it seemed like they also started skipping the movie...
The Living Seas was one of my favorites...the most complete storytelling and most transportive of the early pavilions...
and the story is still relevant...
Nemo aged out way worse than the original concept did...

Yes, I think that would have been great! But an update like that seems like something they would've needed to do back in 1996 to have retained the magic. (And yes, this is my opinion about MOST of Epcot).

And I'm certainly no defender of the Nemo and Friends ride, which I've always found disappointing.

 

[JohnD]

Yes, The Seas needs help. Basically no one cares about Nemo anymore, and the fact it’s a lazy retread of the movie doesn’t help.

What they should do is build the Poseidon dark ride concept from the early 80s. With todays screen and projection mapping tech, it could be a real stunner of an experience, not to mention more appropriate for EPCOT.

What I honestly don't like is Nemo is an an a-hole in this attraction. His father already went through hell to find him. So what does Nemo do? He plays with him again forcing him to find him again. Structurally, it's just a ride with screens. It needs something else.

 

[flyerjab]

I'm not sure why, but I find myself reacting to posts like yours. I was lucky enough to have experienced The Living Seas and SeaBase Alpha. It was indeed awesome, and great immersive storytelling. At the time.

It was not timeless. You literally had to be there to get that feeling many of us feel so fondly of. But by "there," I don't mean The Living Seas Pavilion; I mean the 1980s and 90s. You had to live in a time where things took time, you did not have unlimited access to information, and society wasn't addicted to entertainment. Otherwise–and please do check out Martin's amazing video I shared above–it did not hold up as well against changes in society as other Imagineering efforts.

I agree with this point. The willingness of people to wait through pre shows only gets shorter as time passes. The video of Martin’s is a classic for certain, but the short movies or whatever they were would get tedious over time. I liken this to the pre shows of modern WDW rides. Going on FoP the first time was incredible. The detail in the queue as you get to the first chamber to be linked to an avatar. The first few times we loved it. After the 20th time? Not so much.

And sorry, but I recall watching a video of the Energy Pavilion from when it first opened. Apologies to anyone that liked that entire thing but that one looked to be boring from day one. And to me, the conceit was the fact that they loaded that ride with dinosaurs. And I get where fossil fuels come from. But people were not riding it to learn all about energy and watch a film about off shore drilling. They wanted to see big dinosaur animatronics.

From what I have gleaned through videos, original Epcot was incredible - for that time. Because of the educational emphasis, Imagineers would need to have constantly updated those pavilions to keep the MAJORITY of park goers enthused and coming back. It’s my opinion, but seeing that same film and riding that same slow moving omnimover would get boring after repeated rides. I guess it comes down to what people will enjoy riding again and again. And with todays park goers carrying phones that can access pretty much anything at any time, I don’t see how today’s Epcot can compete using the original approach. There is no way that good old Bob would agree to spending money to constantly update educational based pavilions. That targets too small of a segment of the park faring population for it to be safely profitable.

 

[osian]

I agree with this point. The willingness of people to wait through pre shows only gets shorter as time passes. The video of Martin’s is a classic for certain, but the short movies or whatever they were would get tedious over time. I liken this to the pre shows of modern WDW rides. Going on FoP the first time was incredible. The detail in the queue as you get to the first chamber to be linked to an avatar. The first few times we loved it. After the 20th time? Not so much.

Yes, the fact that people weren't fond of watching pre-show movies isn't actually a reason for scrapping the concept, it's an excuse. You mention FoP, yes the pre-show videos are tedious. And look at Cosmic Rewind, it has two of them and it wasn't very long before people got fed up. Shouting comic retorts at the first one, and ignoring the second and just piling over to the right hand side of the room because they just want to get on with the ride. And Rise...the Rey pre-show and the "transport" that takes you to the main ride, surely the direct equivalent of the Seas pre-show, hydrolators and sea cabs. Just get on with the ride already, in fact that's the main reasons why I don't find Rise particualrly re-rideable. It has too much preamble that is just not interesting after the first time and simply wastes time.

Does that mean that already these rides are outdated and need to be scrapped because of peoples' limited attention spans?

I don't disagree that attractions will need refurbishments, updating etc as the decades go by, but I do disagree with the premise that the best way to deal with that is to scrap the concept and replace it with a movie overlay. Disney can do better than that.

Yes, today with have all the knowledge in the world available on those devices that we use to book dining reservations with and stream Disney music and movies with. But where do you get the inspiration and inclination to actually look it all up? EPCOT was certianly a massive inspiration to me, even in my early 20s, and even if we didn't have the entire world at our fingertips then, it gave me the inspiration to look further into the subjects, particularly the countries that had never even crossed my mind before. And I don't think that changes through the decades, you still need that inspiration to look things up on our phones.

 

[_caleb]

Yes, the fact that people weren't fond of watching pre-show movies isn't actually a reason for scrapping the concept, it's an excuse. You mention FoP, yes the pre-show videos are tedious. And look at Cosmic Rewind, it has two of them and it wasn't very long before people got fed up. Shouting comic retorts at the first one, and ignoring the second and just piling over to the right hand side of the room because they just want to get on with the ride. And Rise...the Rey pre-show and the "transport" that takes you to the main ride, surely the direct equivalent of the Seas pre-show, hydrolators and sea cabs. Just get on with the ride already, in fact that's the main reasons why I don't find Rise particualrly re-rideable. It has too much preamble that is just not interesting after the first time and simply wastes time.

Does that mean that already these rides are outdated and need to be scrapped because of peoples' limited attention spans?

I don't disagree that attractions will need refurbishments, updating etc as the decades go by, but I do disagree with the premise that the best way to deal with that is to scrap the concept and replace it with a movie overlay. Disney can do better than that.

It seems like in one paragraph, you articulate all the reasons preambles/preshows are tedious/boring/frustrating, but then in the next you seem to be arguing against getting rid of them? Just trying to understand.

Yes, today with have all the knowledge in the world available on those devices that we use to book dining reservations with and stream Disney music and movies with. But where do you get the inspiration and inclination to actually look it all up? EPCOT was certianly a massive inspiration to me, even in my early 20s, and even if we didn't have the entire world at our fingertips then, it gave me the inspiration to look further into the subjects, particularly the countries that had never even crossed my mind before. And I don't think that changes through the decades, you still need that inspiration to look things up on our phones.

Right. But the point is that the ability of attractions like Epcot's original lineup to inspire that curiosity dwindled with time. On the edutainment continuum, Disney shifted away from the educational side more squarely into the entertainment side. We can lament this change, but I think it's important to acknowledge that it was done in response to major shifts in society.

 

[osian]

It seems like in one paragraph, you articulate all the reasons preambles/preshows are tedious/boring/frustrating, but then in the next you seem to be arguing against getting rid of them? Just trying to understand.

It's not complicated, I'm arguing that the "boring" pre-show wasn't a reason for scrapping the original concept for Seas because we have exactly the same sort of thing now that are still being done for new attractions and are not being used as reasons in calls for those rides to be scrapped. I was agreeing with flyerjab and making the same point, that the pre-shows get tedious after a while, including the modern attractions, but does that mean that the rides shouild be scrapped? No, of course not. Perhaps a bit of imagination should be used to fix the problem.

 

[_caleb]

It's not complicated, I'm arguing that the "boring" pre-show wasn't a reason for scrapping the original concept for Seas because we have exactly the same sort of thing now that are still being done for new attractions and are not being used as reasons in calls for those rides to be scrapped. I was agreeing with flyerjab and making the same point, that the pre-shows get tedious after a while, including the modern attractions, but does that mean that the rides shouild be scrapped? No, of course not.

I see. Thanks. Yeah, I agree that pre-shows can/should be a key part of attractions. They just need to do it differently--less exposition, more subtlety, and keep things moving!

 

[Bocabear]

or knee-jerk reactions? Having access to information is not the same as being inspired to learn more and dig deeper...
Kids are not necessarily going to delve into information on the formation of the seas because they have a smart phone...nor is Finding Nemo necessarily going to motivate them to learn... but these pavilions inspired.
Adding cartoon IP is not the answer...it just seems to move people further from inspiration...
Disney has not cracked the code on what might be the answer... but I don't necessarily see them looking... Just a band-aid.
So basically you are saying that no one wants to learn and if they have to see a movie twice they are bored and want to just get to the ride.... Sounds like a classic Six Flags park is more for that sort of visitor...
people like different things... It is OK if you just want to go n a plain rollercoaster and a storyline is too much... Then what Disney Parks were, is not for you.
Sadly Disney is dumbing it down to meet the lowest common denominator...rather than find a way to inspire and push the envelope...