News The Seas pavilion new color scheme

[lazyboy97o]

Right. But the point is that the ability of attractions like Epcot's original lineup to inspire that curiosity dwindled with time. On the edutainment continuum, Disney shifted away from the educational side more squarely into the entertainment side. We can lament this change, but I think it's important to acknowledge that it was done in response to major shifts in society.

Because it wasn’t. It was changed because leadership increasingly held the view that theme parks exist merely as a marketing vehicle for the respectable studio business. The solution to Epcot becoming less unique and less special isn’t to copy other parks and become yet another place to ride the movies.

 

[JohnD]

I agree with this point. The willingness of people to wait through pre shows only gets shorter as time passes. The video of Martin’s is a classic for certain, but the short movies or whatever they were would get tedious over time. I liken this to the pre shows of modern WDW rides. Going on FoP the first time was incredible. The detail in the queue as you get to the first chamber to be linked to an avatar. The first few times we loved it. After the 20th time? Not so much.

And sorry, but I recall watching a video of the Energy Pavilion from when it first opened. Apologies to anyone that liked that entire thing but that one looked to be boring from day one. And to me, the conceit was the fact that they loaded that ride with dinosaurs. And I get where fossil fuels come from. But people were not riding it to learn all about energy and watch a film about off shore drilling. They wanted to see big dinosaur animatronics.

From what I have gleaned through videos, original Epcot was incredible - for that time. Because of the educational emphasis, Imagineers would need to have constantly updated those pavilions to keep the MAJORITY of park goers enthused and coming back. It’s my opinion, but seeing that same film and riding that same slow moving omnimover would get boring after repeated rides. I guess it comes down to what people will enjoy riding again and again. And with todays park goers carrying phones that can access pretty much anything at any time, I don’t see how today’s Epcot can compete using the original approach. There is no way that good old Bob would agree to spending money to constantly update educational based pavilions. That targets too small of a segment of the park faring population for it to be safely profitable.

Energy was going the way of the dinosaur anyway. Fossil fuels and offshore drilling are now frowned upon in certain circles. People can talk about how GOTG just doesn't fit Epcot but Energy was already doomed.

 

[_caleb]

Because it wasn’t. It was changed because leadership increasingly held the view that theme parks exist merely as a marketing vehicle for the respectable studio business. The solution to Epcot becoming less unique and less special isn’t to copy other parks and become yet another place to ride the movies.

I agree with you, so I think I worded my post poorly. I think the reason the original lineup became less and less compelling was changes to society. So Disney had to change them. But, as you mention, the direction Disney took was a deliberate choice to copy stuff from other parks and cram in IP. This was not the only (or, in my opinion the best) option they had, and I didn't mean to make it sound like it was.

 

[JohnD]

I see. Thanks. Yeah, I agree that pre-shows can/should be a key part of attractions. They just need to do it differently--less exposition, more subtlety, and keep things moving!

Pre shows also do another thing. They regulate guests going into the attraction. Like it or not, pre shows are here to stay.

 

[James Alucobond]

In my opinion, the core problem of former Future World is that the pavilions themselves are a central part of the experience, and when they feel tired, the whole concept no longer feels aspirational. Fundamentally, I don't have a problem with Nemo in The Seas. It's just that his incorporation is exceptionally lazy and did nothing to elevate the rest of the pavilion; if anything, it further diluted the theming instead of being used as an opportunity to refresh it. With The Seas, The Land, Imagination, and Wonders of Life, the pavilion hub really needs to be exquisite for everything to work, but they keep ignoring that part.

 

[flyerjab]

or knee-jerk reactions? Having access to information is not the same as being inspired to learn more and dig deeper...
Kids are not necessarily going to delve into information on the formation of the seas because they have a smart phone...nor is Finding Nemo necessarily going to motivate them to learn... but these pavilions inspired.
Adding cartoon IP is not the answer...it just seems to move people further from inspiration...
Disney has not cracked the code on what might be the answer... but I don't necessarily see them looking... Just a band-aid.
So basically you are saying that no one wants to learn and if they have to see a movie twice they are bored and want to just get to the ride.... Sounds like a classic Six Flags park is more for that sort of visitor...
people like different things... It is OK if you just want to go n a plain rollercoaster and a storyline is too much... Then what Disney Parks were, is not for you.
Sadly Disney is dumbing it down to meet the lowest common denominator...rather than find a way to inspire and push the envelope...

To be clear, I never said everyone. And I don’t mind the approach of educating while entertaining. I LOVE a lot of what this company does. My favorite park is DAK and not for its rides per se. I love that park for its message, theming and transportive nature. I think that animals, conservation and the natural world are a little easier to digest.

Epcot is a more challenging park if you take the original intent. There were portions of some of the original ride lineup that leaned too far into the edutainment aspect. The majority - with emphasis on majority (not everyone) - of people that leave their real world behind don’t want to feel like they are sitting in a classroom…even a mobile one. I was listening to Tom Nabbe on a podcast a few years ago. I sort of agree with his views on Epcot. He saw it as a noble venture that was never sustainable after the first so many years of operation. It would become too expensive, especially knowing that a smaller target audience was the demographic that was enjoying it.

I would love it if they took Nemo out and went back to a more generic, non-IP approach. I think Nemo could be infused somehow, to draw in the younger crowd. That is what the company is aiming for nowadays. They want the largest audience possible. Everyone knows that Epcot was looked at as the adult park. Not that I am agreeing with what I am about to state, but why would a company looking to gain as much profit as possible limit the target audience? Eisner saw Epcot as a missed opportunity and moved to put IP in as soon as possible.

I am looking for a successful blending of both approaches. But it is difficult with Iger in charge. I would propose putting in a new omnimover attraction. Way more based on natural sciences. They can have a child section of Sea Base Alpha, keep Crush and a few more smaller marine exhibits that incorporate Nemo. But I do love the sea cabs and the hydrolators. They should have kept that.

 

[osian]

Energy was going the way of the dinosaur anyway. Fossil fuels and offshore drilling are now frowned upon in certain circles. People can talk about how GOTG just doesn't fit Epcot but Energy was already doomed.

UoE in that form was doomed. But we still have, like, energy in our world, it wasn't an 80s phenomenon that went of fashion that no-one uses now. We still generate it and we must look to the future and find new ways of generating it. Basically, the concept of Universe of Energy was sound. But rather than update it, they'd rather scrap it and convert it to be an advertisement for a movie franchise. Who knows, if they'd updated it instead, it might have inspired a young person to go into a energy-related research career.

Granted, Cosmic Rewind, behind the gloss, is about the Big Bang, the creation of the universe and all the energy in it (though of course it's no longer an energy pavilion). But how many people take that on board? It could easily have been (and could still be, if GotG ever goes out of fashion) exactly the same ride inside but a story about energy and our future instead. The GotG could even have been hosts.

You could argue that the attraction teaches maths, probability and the odds of which song out the six you're going to get, people are always discussing this...

 

[MisterPenguin]

Nemo as the IP for a Living Seas ride? Ok.

*That* Nemo ride? No thanks. It's complete garbage.


Just a pixie dusting shill checking in.

BTW, we can replace "Nemo" above with "Figment" and it would be the same.

 

[JohnD]

UoE in that form was doomed. But we still have, like, energy in our world, it wasn't an 80s phenomenon that went of fashion that no-one uses now. We still generate it and we must look to the future and find new ways of generating it. Basically, the concept of Universe of Energy was sound. But rather than update it, they'd rather scrap it and convert it to be an advertisement for a movie franchise. Who knows, if they'd updated it instead, it might have inspired a young person to go into a energy-related research career.

Granted, Cosmic Rewind, behind the gloss, is about the Big Bang, the creation of the universe and all the energy in it (though of course it's no longer an energy pavilion). But how many people take that on board? It could easily have been (and could still be, if GotG ever goes out of fashion) exactly the same ride inside but a story about energy and our future instead. The GotG could even have been hosts.

You could argue that the attraction teaches maths, probability and the odds of which song out the six you're going to get, people are always discussing this...

As was pointed out, most wanted to see the dinosaurs. Dinosaurs ARE today's fossil fuels. But by no longer focusing on fossil fuels, there are no dinosaurs. (I'm not anti-fossil fuels, mind you. It's just not "fashionable" anymore.) What else about energy are people going to want to see? Solar arrays? Windmills? Exciting (sarcasm). Whether GOTG belongs has been discussed ad nauseum so I won't further engage that. I'm just saying that the Universe of Energy and Ellen's Energy Adventure outlived its premise, sorry to say.

 

[Centauri Space Station]

Nemo replaced a pointless omnimover just going through the aquarium you’re about to see with no story what so ever. Atleast Nemo is longer and has a few impressive effects like the KUKA angler and the fish projected in the aquarium

 

[UNCgolf]

Nemo replaced a pointless omnimover just going through the aquarium you’re about to see with no story what so ever. Atleast Nemo is longer and has a few impressive effects like the KUKA angler and the fish projected in the aquarium

No it didn't.

That omnimover was part of the "story" of the pavilion and one of the reasons the Living Seas was among the best things Imagineering has ever done. It helped sell the concept that you had traveled to a base under the ocean.

The Nemo ride, on the other hand, is one of the worst rides they've ever built.

Even if you eliminated the whole Seabase Alpha concept so that the omnimovers actually were more or less pointless, they'd still be better than the current Nemo attraction because you'd at least get to see the actual animals in the aquarium from another perspective.

 

[Centauri Space Station]

No it didn't.

That omnimover was part of the "story" of the pavilion and one of the reasons the Living Seas was among the best things Imagineering has ever done. It helped sell the concept that you had traveled to a base under the ocean.

The Nemo ride, on the other hand, is one of the worst rides they've ever built.

Even if you eliminated the whole Seabase Alpha concept so that the omnimovers actually were more or less pointless, they'd still be better than the current Nemo attraction because you'd at least get to see the actual animals in the aquarium from another perspective.

Disagree, the star was always the aquarium. The concept was dying and the sea cabs didn’t even run in the last 4 years of its existence. Nemo isn’t the best ride but it’s not the worst either. The queue to Nemo transports you to a beach slowly descending to the ocean. The exit is what ruins the effect.

 

[osian]

Nemo replaced a pointless omnimover just going through the aquarium you’re about to see with no story what so ever.

It's the transport that takes you from land to the ocean-floor visitor centre. What do you mean by "aquarium"? It's literally the ocean. What part of that story did you miss?

Rise of the Resistance - the transport ship takes you from land up into space where you're hijacked and diverted to the First Order ship. Without that boring transport bit, you just end up in a warehouse with no story.

Space 220 - the transport takes you from land up to the unique restaurant in the sky. Without that boring transport bit, you're just climbing some stairs into a second floor dining room with a large projection screen and no story.

 

[Centauri Space Station]

It's the transport that takes you from land to the ocean-floor visitor centre. What do you mean by "aquarium"? It's literally the ocean. What part of that story did you miss?

Rise of the Resistance - the transport ship takes you from land up into space where you're hijacked and diverted to the First Order ship. Without that boring transport bit, you just end up in a warehouse with no story.

Space 220 - the transport takes you from land up to the unique restaurant in the sky. Without that boring transport bit, you're just climbing some stairs into a second floor dining room with a large projection screen and no story.

That was done by the hydrolaters, I was talking about the ride itself. It just seemed like it could've been alot more and didn't really add to it.

 

[ChrisFL]

I do think the omnimover in the original Living Seas was a bit redundant but knowing the history of the creation it seems it was the result of a lot of changes.

If I was "in charge" when the original Nemo changes were going to take place, I'd have kept the original opening film and hydrolators but had a separate entrance/ride for Nemo once you get down to Seabase Alpha.....realizing that structurally that might not have worked that well due to the layout of everything.

 

[Horizon1]

I'm not sure why, but I find myself reacting to posts like yours. I was lucky enough to have experienced The Living Seas and SeaBase Alpha. It was indeed awesome, and great immersive storytelling. At the time.

It was not timeless. You literally had to be there to get that feeling many of us feel so fondly of. But by "there," I don't mean The Living Seas Pavilion; I mean the 1980s and 90s. You had to live in a time where things took time, you did not have unlimited access to information, and society wasn't addicted to entertainment. Otherwise–and please do check out Martin's amazing video I shared above–it did not hold up as well against changes in society as other Imagineering efforts.

Kind of the issue with old Epcot. The technology was phased out or came to fruition and was no longer cool future tech.

That being said we know more about space then we do about the sea and the world beneath the surface, definitely something that could have been done to update the living seas and is probably in order as Nemo is aging.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

Kind of the issue with old Epcot. The technology was phased out or came to fruition and was no longer cool future tech.

That being said we know more about space then we do about the sea and the world beneath the surface, definitely something that could have been done to update the living seas and is probably in order as Nemo is aging.

The issue I have with this argument is that much of original Future World was designed to be updated - if it even needed to. Other than Energy, WoL and the Seas, very little of the time on the omnimover rides was focused on the future. It showcased the past in SSE, World of Motion and Horizons. Horizons was also an exception to this with it's second half, but it was so far in the future it still had relevancy (with updated effects, of course). LwtL certainly looked to the future - but in the most tangible way, as it still does today successfully. JII didn't need to, as it was all fantasy. They kept many of the attractions that were easier (cheaper) to simply update and took out those that could actually have become classics.

I'm not saying there weren't major dated things. And, I'm not saying updates weren't desperately needed. It's the lack of a cohesive focus and idea that causes the replacements to fail. Without it, the attractions are just standalone attractions. And, the park as a whole suffers because of it. Whether people care enough about that or not is another question. But, there is little doubt it played into the popularity of the park in the 80s and 90s along with the innovation being showcased. Believe it or not, a lot of people like to feel inspired. Before Disney was hyper branded, that was the audience EPCOT Center went after and grabbed successfully.

 

[Horizon1]

The issue I have with this argument is that much of original Future World was designed to be updated - if it even needed to. Other than Energy, WoL and the Seas, very little of the time on the omnimover rides was focused on the future. It showcased the past in SSE, World of Motion and Horizons. Horizons was also an exception to this with it's second half, but it was so far in the future it still had relevancy (with updated effects, of course).

I wish they would have done this instead of replacing things. All of those great attractions could have been updated and kept but I think they were viewed as being outdated and maybe more importantly no IP integration.

Horizons updated I think would have still been a popular attraction today. Beat the heat for a few, classic ride, and sort of a sequel to carousel of progress.

 

[Epcot82Guy]

I wish they would have done this instead of replacing things. All of those great attractions could have been updated and kept but I think they were viewed as being outdated and maybe more importantly no IP integration.

Horizons updated I think would have still been a popular attraction today. Beat the heat for a few, classic ride, and sort of a sequel to carousel of progress.

I totally agree. And, a lot of exciting rides could have been created based around sealife, health and energy. Or, even swapped the themes out for something else. I totally understand the cost of the high AA omnimovers and where they felt passe for a bit in the 90s. But, they have stood the test of time far better than some other things that have come and gone (if properly maintained and updated).

Water under Moana's bridge, sadly, at this point. But, maybe the idea could catch back on someday.

 

[Tegan pilots a chicken]

The video of Martin’s is a classic for certain, but the short movies or whatever they were would get tedious over time. I liken this to the pre shows of modern WDW rides. Going on FoP the first time was incredible. The detail in the queue as you get to the first chamber to be linked to an avatar. The first few times we loved it. After the 20th time? Not so much.

Most people don’t get to ride FoP 20 times in their lifetime.

I think in these discussions it’s always best to imagine the experience through the lens of first time visitors.