The problem with "Epcot" as I see it

[MuRkErY]

Another Epcot thread, I know... There is a reason for the amount of threads and discussion this special place get's, it is simply because it means so much to so many of us, it inspired, it taught, it brought us as a race together and in doing so it also entertained. We want, we need, Epcot to keep these core philosophies, it could be argued that more than anytime ever, with the issues we all now face, Epcot can be, and should be more relevant than it ever has been to all of us.

How-ever it is plain to see what is happening to Epcot, I won’t bore you with all the details, we all know them, Gran Fiesta tour taking over El Rio, Nemo and Friends taking over The Living Seas, Princess meals in Norway, Pirates merchandise in places it does not belong, the SSE descent, this is without even getting into the older issues such as the JII refurb, Horizons etc…

Some of us have no qualms with the “cartoonization” of Epcot. I ask you this. To read the last paragraph on the Epcot dedication plaque. I’ll post it up here for you.

“May EPCOT Center entertain, inform and inspire, and above all, may it instil a new sense of belief and pride in mans ability to shape a world that offers hope to people everywhere”

Jeremy Irons old narration on SSE did this, Horizons did this, the old JII did this, EPCOT Center as a whole did this.

I guess where this thread has came from more than anything is my opinion on the recent refurb of SSE, it encapsulates in my eyes everything that is going wrong with Epcot. Yes hopefully the Descent might still be salvaged somehow (I think how-ever that it will take some sizeable work). How-ever one of the things that has irked me more than anything is the new script, it is such a watered down version of the Irons script that it is criminal. Many people I see praise it as more light and breezy, more care-free but when has that ever been Epcots purpose, the same thing can be said of the many things I listed above such as The Seas with Nemo and Friends etc… Where is the majesty, where is the inspiration, where is it, where has it gone ???

The arguments that most people come out with are that the old EPCOT Center was a failure (Which it was not in my eyes) so the direction of the park must be changed. This is the basis of my argument which can simply be summed up with this.

The problem with Epcot currently (Maybe the WDC as a whole) is not that it is aiming to high and failing, it is that it is aiming to low and succeeding. At a time more than ever where we could do with a shining beacon for the world too look too, a place of light for all the worlds people, a place of hope for humanity to encourage us too do better, the WDC is turning its back…and following the crowd. Personally I think this is a tragedy.

 

[mlayton14]

You are right on the mark .. Epcot has lost its inspiration for cheaper brand of fun. There is really little left relating to inspiration other than Living with the Land and I believe its only a matter of time before we see Mickey or Stitch in there. Its really a shame.

 

[joshwill]

i love epcot, but after reading what you said, i think i know now why some people i know dont go to epcot.

face it, most people who go there are there for a vacation. they want to be entertained, by disney. they dont want "a shining beacon for the world too look too, a place of light for all the worlds people, a place of hope for humanity to encourage us too do better", they want mickey and friends.

 

[tomm4004]

Where is the majesty, where is the inspiration, where is it, where has it gone ???

I completely agree with your post. But isn't this true of all entertainment? Look at TV - mindless reality shows and copycat dramas that are mostly dead-body-of-the-week shows.

And is Disney to blame or are the guests? Didn't I read many posts that EPCOT was boring, that people didn't want to sit through slow rides like Horizons and some dumb thing on the history of transportation? That they didn't want to stand for 18 minutes and listen to some unknown Chinese poet ramble on and on (so they cut it to 12 minutes). And now we get Martin Short and cartoons for Mexico - far more entertaining than the stodgy old shows, right? Didn't guests cry for Disney characters in EPCOT?

Again, while I agree with your lament on EPCOT (and I share it), I wonder if it's just not a reflection of culture in general. Everything is becoming generic. Disney sees EPCOT as a marketing arm as much as a product in itself. That's why you saw The Incredibles DVD (a couple years ago) for sale at the American Adventure. That's why while watching CHUCK the other night on NBC they had a logo for a new show in the corner of the screen throughout the entire show (I put tape over it!). One show is just a marketing arm for another show - and so on...

I think if Disney thought guests wanted 20-minute cerebral attractions, we would not have gotten M:S and TT. It would be fascinating to read guest surveys conducted over the years.

On a similar topic: Many posters wonder why Disney doesn't build more attractions in World Showcase. Why? Because the restaurants are full. Le Cellier is booked out months in advance. Why build attractions to lure people to the money-making spots when they're already full? Someone lamented that Disney treats WS as if it's a glorified shopping mall, but that is how guests treat it. They book Le Cellier months in advance, show up right at ADR time, eat then leave. They probably don't even see the movie. Disney knows this. Look at Japan. The store is packed (it recently expanded) and both eateries are lined up. So you need an attraction why?

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

First and foremost we must remember that Epcot is a theme park run by the mouse to make money. (Wannabe@dis and I agree on this! :lol

Things must change at WDW, like at any other vacation resort that offers theme parks. Some things stay, some things go. I understand all of that and agree with it on general terms, it's just that some things I agree changed for the better and others didn't. It's a matter of opinion, and everyone has one. It just comes down on these boards is if someone's opinion as actually "right".

While Epcot....is just a theme park......really thats what it is.....it's just another theme park with a slight world's fair overlay.

One could say that EPCOT Center was just a theme park and etc etc, BUT I truly feel that there were way too many people behind EPCOT Center....it meant alot of things....growth, expansion, money!!!, a new era, a new branch of entertainment.

But for the designers and imagineers who now in interviews speak of their work with fond memories, it really seems that alot of people were dedicated and behind the message of EPCOT Center: Entertain, Inform, Inspire

It really is all in a name. Epcot means nothing, it is just another (disney) theme park that sells princess, pirate merchandise, and offers characters and thrills and what-not.

The Animal Kingdom and some of DHS are the only real unique things I can find at WDW.

The magic kingdom and future world of Epcot are so similar in my eyes in terms of what they offer.....not in literal terms, but in theoretical terms...that future world in Epcot is no different than tomorrowland at the magic kingdom.

World Showcase is still holding onto its uniqueness.

EPCOT Center........I am SOOOOOOOO GLAD they never made EPCOT a city. People here say EPCOT Center has nothing to do with EPCOT (the city).....but it does......parts of what became EPCOT Center, even areas of WDW, and Celebration, FL take its queue from EPCOT the city.

EPCOT Center.....it really should be called "The EPCOT Center" just like we call it "The Magic Kingdom"

The Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow serving as a Center for technological and cultural achievement

What a great phrase, and a true story behind a name.

People say, "why can't they rename the park"

I really don't see why they don't on the count of numerous people that still call it EPCOT Center, whether they are thinking "Epcot Center" is beyond me, but it does roll nicely on the tongue and it does mean something.

It's just that we must be realistic and know that EPCOT Center or even Epcot Center....is not the one we remember or know of from 1982-1993.

In my next post I will discuss this further.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

EPCOT Center failed because we failed.

I don't what statistics or figures Card Walker was looking at, but it was pretty obvious that when EPCOT Center opened, even though people were coming in, many of them left thinking " was this?!"

WDI and other managment must have felt passionate behind EPCOT Center if they truly though it would click with guests and thus make money.

I agree with adding in Disney characters past and present, I agree with adding Disney merchandise, but only in certain spots.

Each country in world showcase should only have appropriate items for both children and adults. This is done for the most part.

There should not be merchandise and castmembers in the innoventions breezways.

Gateway Gifts and The Photo Center should also have appropriate merch.....not the same thing that can be found elsewhere around the park.

Mouse Gear can be the epicenter of merch like it is, but there's so much unique world showcase stuff that you think they could make some more future world items.

The DVC units everywhere is insane!!!!!!!! INSANE!!!!!!!!!

Disney's worst kept secret.

One DVC for each park pleeeease.

Merchandise on the pathway between future world and world showcase....nah uh.....it's amazing the money disney would save by not having to hire CM's for all the DVC booths, innoventions breezway booths, and future world to world showcase walkway booths.

Let alone paying the money to have they built.

The area music needs to be much more appropriate.

A new musical score should be written for the entrance that blends all the rides together like the old score did.

Hearing american spread your golden wings at the entrance to future world is very innapropriate considering that song is from a world showcase attraction and Epcot is not about America but about everyone and everything.

The ghosts of EPCOT Center is bothersome.

The ununsed Imageworks.....and they want to do a kim possible make over?! Maybe in DHS that would be appropriate, but my God, stop turning Epcot into universal studios where everything from TV and Film comes to life.

That was what was so great about WDI back then. They offered us UNIQUE attractions that for the majority...had nothing to do with disney television or films, especially in tomorrowland....and since half of epcot is future world...this should still hold true.

Mickey and Friends wearing new futuristic costumes in futureworld in a futuristic character spot...I'm all for it! Kim Possible adventure between future world and world showcase....err no.

The other ghosts of EPCOT Center....the world key touch screens.

Well damn, considering SSE's entire ending rely's on touch screens....why should I have to go and wait for a CM to type in my dinner reservation when they can just get us some brand new 21st century world keys that don't rely on laserdiscs so I can check the park information whenever.

They should demolish the old worldkey booth infront of guest relations.

But you know that sweet pin booth right behind SSE? They could be a sweet new world key booth....on the count of Disney has enough pin trading going on to begin with.

WorldKey in world showcase could also be better strategized.

The abandonded booths on the walkway to world showcase should be demoed.

What is with these random water jets? Fun for kids on a hot summer day...sure, but they could use some work.

Ok rant number three will deal with the cosmetics and attractions of Epcot

 

[ZapperZ]

When Epcot opens every morning at 9:00 am, where do you think almost 100% of the guests rush to? Innoventions? Or Soarin'/Test Track? I will bet dinner at Marrekesh that it is Soarin'/Test Track.

If I were in Disney's company shoes and I see this very obvious thing, it is a no brainer that this is something the guests want. Yet, I also have this "mission" that I would like to adhere to that may, in fact, be the opposite of what the guests want. What do I do? I have to make a compromise somehow. It would be best that those two can merge together, but in most cases, they can't or simply the opposite of the other.

Given that fact, I think Epcot/Disney is doing quite well in balancing the two. It is very difficult to keep up with all the development in science and technology, and I say that as someone who works in science. Can they do better? Sure they can! One can say that about every Disney theme parks. What I do see is that Epcot continues to maintain its uniqueness among all Disney theme parks. Heck, it is even unique among all theme parks in existence. There's nothing quite like it!

There has been at least one study that considers Epcot as a "Science Center" back in 1998. It clearly discussed the problem in trying to get guests who are there for a vacation and fun to be involved in something with educational content. It is a very difficult task. Add to that the glaring fact that the general public simply tend to have very little interest in science/technology content, it is admirable that Disney simply hasn't turned Epcot completely over to thrill rides.

Zz.

 

[Kingdom WDW]

I agree basically with all of you.

First off, I did not go to WDW until the Millennium Celebration. That was post-Horizons and post-EPCOT Center.

However, every thing I hear regarding EPCOT Center is marvelous! Every time I listen to Horizons on my iPod I wonder, "Why?" When I hear about the success of Captain EO, I am scared to think what went through the minds of the Suits when they wanted to replace it with a franchise.

Speaking of franchises, The Seas with Nemo and Friends ride SUCKS. The only good thing about it is the queue. The rest of the show building I do not have a problem with. I've never been on such a cheap ride. The Marlin-impersonator really needs to slow down his speaking. When I was on the ride, I heard: NemoNemoWhere'sNemoIneedtofindmysonWho'sNemo?Ohthere'sNemo

The projections weren't that good either. It was fine the way it was before. Quintessential EPCOT Center. While Disney thinks that they are reaching out to a larger crowd with these franchises, most people over 10 think the franchisement is too juvenile. The only possible exception to this would be the Gran Fiesta Tour. There, you are bringing back a great movie, and not shoving it down your throat.

Back in the 80's, the general opinion about EPCOT Center was that it was too bland. So, lumberjack Mickey goes up in Canada. Belle and Cinderella go to Scandinavia. What the audience really needed was thrill. If Test Track wasn't a thrill ride, it would be, at most, interesting. There is really nothing to look at. Now that we bring those cars up to 65 mph, people started to like the pavilion. Thrill is starting to get the message across, not characters.

Even with all of these "improvements", EPCOT Center remains a shadow of what it once was. When I hear those retrospectives about EPCOT Center on WDWRadio, I am almost jealous of what resort guests had back then. Adding franchises wasn't the answer.

Up until the Millennium, EPCOT Center was forward thinking. Then, we could "Celebrate the future" and "Go on to discover new frontiers" but that cause has been lost.

 

[epcot85]

I think Disney is to ultimately blame, they did make the changes, however they are somewhat governed by sponsors and general guest reactions. I am willing to bet that over half of the general public didn't even know that Epcot Center was a Disney park, I know that sounds crazy but I have heard from many people that thought this. I have always thought that this was the reason for the wand, guest see Mickey's hand and they instantly knew that Epcot was Disney. So IMO we can blame the general public almost as much as we can blame Disney for losing the core feeling of Epcot Center. And sometimes pavilion changes are a result of Sponsor demands....something that Walt wouldn't have gone for, at least not to the exteme.

 

[Expo_Seeker40]

The one thing that always intrigued me about EPCOT Center...were its cosmetics.

Sleek, clean, not in your face.

There is a big discussion about leave a legacy....

Well look at the current Epcot entrance

The brand new, but oh so temporary looking metal gates that are all over the Epcot entrance to prevent us from the terrorists *shivers and shakes* has got to one helluva an ugly entrance. Walt Disney didn't always care if guests didn't care or notice something.i.e. the details...he wanted it to look good because it had to be good...it was Disney.

They could do a real nice set of new planters and more solid rockwork and walls that people can walk past. Even set up some lights, benches, and trashcans into nooks in these walls that people can sit in.

New pavement, colors, etc would create a fresh new approach to the park's entrance.

As guests then merge into what should be a permanent looking security booth, then they merge into a brand new built ticket booth and entrance plaza.

The old purples and yellows are literally faded memories of EPCOT Center.

The overgrown exotic plants are no longer small like they were from the 1980s.

The color scheme they should use is black, white, grey, and different blues and silvers.

Very now, contemporary, and clean.

As we enter the entrance to EPCOT Center 2.0.......

SSE has brand new powder blue painted legs. The mirror column is still there, but now has flowers and plants beneath it with a fence so people can't get it finger print infested. The scars where the old SSE logos are, would have new SSE logos on them.

The legs would be solid powder blue. Gone would be the leave a legacy painted legs. The bottom of SSE legs would be a series of blues, in the style of the 1982 EPCOT Center pattern, but using the color scheme currently at the entrance to SSE.

So no, I would not bring back the horrid reds and oranges of yesteryear. I am CHANGING the entrance but with inspiration taken from the past.

Interestingly enough....the two buildings that connect to SSE are not identical.

I would make them identical: Having gateway gifts and the camera center, but would then have guest relations east and guest relations west. There would be small merfcoves on each side, and then stroller, EVC, and wheelchair rentals, and then the same blue pait scheme would run down the walls admist smaller but colorful flowers and plants.

I would rip out the ugly overgrown trees at the front of SSE, and bring back the palm trees that gradually get taller as they work their way up to SSE.

The fountain itself is a joke. It is made to look natural looking when it clearly is surrounded by modern architecture. I would make the fountain look sleek and modern again and install a new prism sculpture.

SSE needs a new lighting pack...and it could rotate colors with the prism sculpture just like the old ones did back then.

As far as leave a legacy goes....I would put that on the walkway between world showcase and futureworld.

The new entrance to EPCOT Center 2.0 would once again be filled with benches and flowers and trees that make their way to the fountain like the old entrance did. An entrance that is colorful, and iniviting, not stale and harsh.

Innoventions...the buildings should also be painted with these metalics, and blues, and silvers. The salmon pink is hideous.

The whirley gigs, and tarps, is just too much clutter. There is way too much going on in Innoventions Plaza.

The rarely used stage that is built around the fountain of nations would also go.

As for the attractions themselves.....I enjoy project tomorrow, I've said enough times that the ending of SSE could use more...

UoE should be the serious attraction at EPCOT Center 2.0 This is where the whole EPCOT Center is relevant to our issues on things such as global warming etc.

The new UoE could entertain, inform, inspire, and be a great place for kids and people with short attentions spans to nap before they head to world showcase.

Wonders of Life is dead, but it doesn't mean the pavilion can't become a new weather pavilion, that can have a thrill ride in there, as well as fun interactive stuff.

You still have M:S and Test Track....I just think Test Track has way too much clutter everywhere.

Innoventions could be designed better I think, and seem much more inviting. Let there be light through those windows!

The Seas, I think could have been done more appropriately...sea base alpha, and the hydrolators all could have remained, but nemo and friends could have educated us on the sea cabs with information about the seas.

The land is nice. Soarin' is a nice touch that celebrates the diversity of the land. Living with the land is good. I think we could use a new symbiosis movie that didn't have characters from over 10 years ago narrating it ala circle of life.

Imagination could get an amazing overhaul. A brand new 21st century Journey Into Imagination, and a 3D movie where figment and dreamfinder take us into the virtual imagination. And new imageworks in the pyramids with new things to see and do but with a few old friends like the rainbow censor tunnel among others.

World showcase should get thrill rides, and some new countries.

It should not be limited to boats and movies.

Disney manageent seems to think that if someone likes something Disney created yesterday or today i.e. movie or tvshow than that most be impleneted into the theme parks to make them show up.....thats a scary and dangerous scenerio.

EPCOT Center 2.0 is not a place about robots and computers and AA rides everywhere...it is a disney theme park that does touch base with reality and the issues facing us. Not every single ride show or attraction would do it, but there would be an overall element of entertain, inform, inspire implemented in various ways into each attraction.

It would be my wish that everyone from EPCOT Center 2.0 can have fun while they are there, but my goal is that yes they spend money to go there, as well as on appropriate themed merchandise areas, and in restaurants, etc...but they hopefully can walk into the EPCOT Center entrance and can see those soaring palm trees, beautiful flowers, fountains, etc and go "Wow"



They can ride thrill rides like test track and mission:Space, can take a break and learn about our energy crisis and what we can do to help it on a revamped UoE....can laugh and feel relaxed at a revamped Imagination...can learn about living with the land while still having fun on soarin'....and can see new technology and studies beeing done at seabase alpha....while still smiling on how nemo and friends taught them a little something about the oceans when they just came off the seacabs before taking the hydrolators back to the "surface of future world".

They can easily get around future world because every pavilion will have a logo. All the signs would have it. They can even understand what the EPCOT Center flower logo is because it would be on future world merchandise sold at mousegears and an explanation could be found in their guidemap.

They can book a reservation at worldkey, they can walk to world showcase, see a movie, watch a performance, window shop, and even take a rollercoaster ride or other thrill ride.

By the time IllumiNations: Sky Dance rolls around, and then ends...the guest leaves EPCOT Center 2.0 admist a color changing SSE, and can say they surely had a good day....they were at Disney, saw some Disney characters, but entered a place that wasn't a spinoff of the magic kingdom, but was a world's fair styled into a theme park that could be executed and give a message that only Disney could do. :sohappy:

 

[cpeterstx]

The problem with Epcot currently (Maybe the WDC as a whole) is not that it is aiming to high and failing, it is that it is aiming to low and succeeding.

This thought alone sums it up, especially for EPCOT Center. EPCOT Center is the second most attended park, so, I'm sure Disney Execs consider it a success. From our perspective, though, it could be better. It could continue to evolve and inspire. I'm not saying we should go back to the EPCOT of 1982 with its dated views of the future but can't we at least have an inspired view of our future from today's perspective??? Is that too much to ask.

 

[marni1971]

A brave and honest post. And very true, as are a lot of the replys.

However - and this may surprise some people - I`m more confident about the future of the park than I was a few years ago.

Epcot from 1998 into the new century was a mess. It was a park with no cohesive direction, no identity, a collection of great and okay attractions that had no connection with eachother. The signature dark ride was still reletively new, but from a park full of its type to one of the few remaining it was curiously different from the others. Innoventions was becoming stale, Energy was only 2 years old but made scant use of the facility which housed it (still true to day, but I`ve said this enough elsewhere) and Horizons fate was sealed. Test Track was a headline event - as much for its amazing 18month overrun as for the attraction, a very good attraction albeit based on a curious, niche topic and perhaps a nod to a Discovery park as regards a theme park. Imagination - simply put, Epcot at its worst. Food Rocks was looking jaded, as all `hip` attractions do once they fall out of fashion, and The Living Seas was heading for a rough time. World Showcase was, well the same since 1988 and the Millenium entertainment justifiably kept this fact loosely hidden.

Into the new millenium, things got worse. The park itself underwent a retheme itself to try to be current and appealing - to a certain extent making the infrastructure itself less 80`s and more pop culture. The entrance, the wand, the fountain plaza - all continued to be decorated and redesigned to be more lively and more exciting, though the end result was more carnival than future-now (IMHO)

The attractions themselves though.. SSE was still talking about how the internet would reveloutionise our lifes and how being linked via the web was beginning to bring us all closer together. The Global Neighborhood had been updated once already, and would need another rehab - if it were to remain open and not become a walled off area.

Energy - same problem. I`m not saying it isn`t enjoyable or popular, it just falls far short of what was easily possible with the existing pavilion - in effect it was the first of the projection v's anything else direction WDI were taking.

With Horizons gone, and a new pavilion to replace it, Wonders of Life was next to see its writing on the wall. Like Horizons, lack of sponsor meant expensive upkeep and needed updates were more than the mouse was prepared to fork out itself.

Imagination received its 3rd incarnation - an admission (not publically) of how bad version 2 was. The 1998 Imagination Institute theme was falling apart but at least the attraction was a vast improvement on the should-be-ashamed-of-the-budget 1999 version. It still wasn`t a touch on the original (or as long). However, Horizons, Motion and JII had to go. Without a virtual show scene rebuild from scratch the park would have been so outdated Tomorrowland of 1993 would have seemed futuristic.

The Land had its major transformation with Soarin' - an out and out simple crowd puller. 3 minutes of thrill for todays information generation who don`t like to think on vacation. It dosn`t fit in Epcot. It dosn`t fit in futureworld or The Land. The format is disjointed, the storyline non-existant. It is nothing special, motion bases and Omnimax screens are decades old, but the bottom line is it works.Joe Public likes it - and so do I. This style of attraction should complement more immersive attractions, not replace them - and thankfully it looks that way too.

But The Living Seas... oh dear. Sponsorless. Dated. One preshow theatre gutted for the info gen guest who can`t be bothered to watch a film. A crucial part of the story and preshow closed and walled off. The entire theme concept of Alpha was ruined.

Showcase was also showing its age. The American Adventure was 1993 current. El Rio Del Tiempo, though charming, was still using 1972 film footage and it showed. Maelstrom received Fast Pass, appearing like some desperate plea that Showcase can be exciting. China, France and Canada were great research films for fashion and hairstyles from 1981. Tapesrty of Nations was dragged into a `almost but not quite new` format. Thankfully, RoE was so well designed and implemented Showcase still had a weenie, and a reason to stay in the park.

Fast forward to now. New management, new blood. New ideas. SSE is in the midst of its most complete overhaul, both on and offstage, since it was designed. It has a sponsor who cares, and the overhauled ascent scenes are in danger of placing the attraction at the forefront of the emmersive dark ride again. The descent - work in progress. Discussed elswehere. But at least issues raised - no matter by who - are known and taken seriously. The end result will be known soon. Even if the finale continues to be anything but, the other 75% of the attraction shows what can be done with the right resources.

The Seas with Nemo. Dumbed down? Yes. Appealing? Very - to all the family. Though it was a fight for a budget that should never have happened the end result isn`t staggering but does make use of the existing infrasturcture fully, and not only ressurected the ridethru it built on it. It isn`t an E Ride by any means, but it isn`t walled off either. The pavillion has a certain ammount of its format back again.

M:S has settled into what it always will be - a cutting edge attraction that didn`t live up to previous managements ideals, but one that fits in with the new Epcot and can still be a crowd puller. Better it is there than not. Test Track is still immensly popular, and though as a topic is still dubious and more an excuse for a thrill ride - again, what the paying guest wanted - the attraction itself stays true to original EPCOT Centers innovative technical side of new ride systems and pushing the envelope for park attractions.

Showcase is undergoing a transformation. New restaurants. Updated attractions. Yes, Mexico has dumbed down as well, but The 3 Callebros makes great use of the best parts of the original installation to appeal to as wide a range of guest as possible. AmAd has been kept up to date, and continues to be plussed technically before it appears as old as it actually is. China has a wonderful update of its original CV film, new footage blending seamlessly with old, whilst publically acknowledging its roots. Canada, well the jurys still out on how well it will wear. O' Canada 2007 may fall into the pop-current trap of Food Rocks but only time will tell. Yes, the film isn`t as grand as Reflections of China technically or visually, but it is current, it is up to date, and money was spent.

It is plainly obvious Impressions de France - more than ever - needs similar treatment. I dare say we`ll see this sooner rather than later. The mouse also knows sooner rather than later WS will need a twelth pavilion - and a good one. Old ideas have been looked at, update proposals made, and new ideas tossed around. There is still plenty of space. It is more a case of when rather than if.

As Epcot enters its new beginning - its 3rd incarnation - I believe the future is very promissing. There is still a way to go though; Energy is past its sell by date and better use should and could be made of the existing building (with or without Ellen). Life is a disgrace and sadly appears to be in a Horizons-like state of limbo. Odyssey is still an Odyssey to the casual guest as to why it is shut, and Imagaintion v4 is still to materialise - as is the vast available space upstairs. HISTA, whilst still entertaining, is showing its age, and no doubt will close when the Imagination theme is replaced by a more back-to-the-original overhaul. With an appropiate budget too.

The park seems again to know where it is going. It isn`t a theme park anymore. It isn`t a worlds fair. It is a collection of attractions that a different to each other but somehow are once again complementing eachother. Perhaps the subject matter is stronger and more fresh - and made more apparent by impressive overhauls and not the stale attitude of `make do`.

There is still a problem with "Epcot", though one that isn`t nearly as bad as it was, and one that seems to be quickly being overcome. Purists and first-timers alike can enjoy the park together.

EPCOT Center is dead. Long live Epcot.

Just give it a new retro logo for its rebirth!

 

[tomm4004]

Soarin'... an out and out simple crowd puller. 3 minutes of thrill for todays information generation who don`t like to think on vacation. It dosn`t fit in Epcot. It dosn`t fit in futureworld or The Land. The format is disjointed, the storyline non-existant.

Excellent post.

I do think Soarin' fits into The Land. You are gliding over a variety of landscapes. What could be more land-ish than that? One reason it works could be the lack of a storyline. After being hit over the head at M:S and TT with exactly what's going to happen on the ride, it's nice to just sit and not have a narrator in your ear like on those two attractions or CTX (Dinosaur). And it 'does' have the sense of majesty that the original poster is looking for. Sometimes simple works.

 

[WDW Monorail]

Why go back to the original EPCOT? It requires thought, imagination, and wonder... which 95% of people these days don't want/know how to do. It has to be in front of them in order for them to grasp it. They want to feel it rather than think it.
It's very sad but it is true. Unfortunately, we will never have EPCOT Center back, as Martin stated. We must move on whether we like it or not. We can voice our opinions and they will be heard. But TWDC wants to please (aside from itself) Joe, Jane, Junior and little Amy, not a few thousand internet board members.

 

[GenerationX]

The park seems again to know where it is going. It isn`t a theme park anymore. It isn`t a worlds fair. It is a collection of attractions that are different to each other but somehow are once again complementing each other.

You make many excellent points throughout your post, this one in particular. Epcot is becoming a vibrant celebration of the beauty of the natural world and the ingenuity of its people. There are plenty of elements to entertain, inspire, and educate in the current Epcot incarnation.

 

[EPCOT Explorer]

The one thing that always intrigued me about EPCOT Center...were its cosmetics.

Sleek, clean, not in your face.

There is a big discussion about leave a legacy....

Well look at the current Epcot entrance

The brand new, but oh so temporary looking metal gates that are all over the Epcot entrance to prevent us from the terrorists *shivers and shakes* has got to one helluva an ugly entrance. Walt Disney didn't always care if guests didn't care or notice something.i.e. the details...he wanted it to look good because it had to be good...it was Disney.

They could do a real nice set of new planters and more solid rockwork and walls that people can walk past. Even set up some lights, benches, and trashcans into nooks in these walls that people can sit in.

New pavement, colors, etc would create a fresh new approach to the park's entrance.

As guests then merge into what should be a permanent looking security booth, then they merge into a brand new built ticket booth and entrance plaza.

The old purples and yellows are literally faded memories of EPCOT Center.

The overgrown exotic plants are no longer small like they were from the 1980s.

The color scheme they should use is black, white, grey, and different blues and silvers.

Very now, contemporary, and clean.

As we enter the entrance to EPCOT Center 2.0.......

SSE has brand new powder blue painted legs. The mirror column is still there, but now has flowers and plants beneath it with a fence so people can't get it finger print infested. The scars where the old SSE logos are, would have new SSE logos on them.

The legs would be solid powder blue. Gone would be the leave a legacy painted legs. The bottom of SSE legs would be a series of blues, in the style of the 1982 EPCOT Center pattern, but using the color scheme currently at the entrance to SSE.

So no, I would not bring back the horrid reds and oranges of yesteryear. I am CHANGING the entrance but with inspiration taken from the past.

Interestingly enough....the two buildings that connect to SSE are not identical.

I would make them identical: Having gateway gifts and the camera center, but would then have guest relations east and guest relations west. There would be small merfcoves on each side, and then stroller, EVC, and wheelchair rentals, and then the same blue pait scheme would run down the walls admist smaller but colorful flowers and plants.

I would rip out the ugly overgrown trees at the front of SSE, and bring back the palm trees that gradually get taller as they work their way up to SSE.

The fountain itself is a joke. It is made to look natural looking when it clearly is surrounded by modern architecture. I would make the fountain look sleek and modern again and install a new prism sculpture.

SSE needs a new lighting pack...and it could rotate colors with the prism sculpture just like the old ones did back then.

As far as leave a legacy goes....I would put that on the walkway between world showcase and futureworld.

The new entrance to EPCOT Center 2.0 would once again be filled with benches and flowers and trees that make their way to the fountain like the old entrance did. An entrance that is colorful, and iniviting, not stale and harsh.

Innoventions...the buildings should also be painted with these metalics, and blues, and silvers. The salmon pink is hideous.

The whirley gigs, and tarps, is just too much clutter. There is way too much going on in Innoventions Plaza.

The rarely used stage that is built around the fountain of nations would also go.

As for the attractions themselves.....I enjoy project tomorrow, I've said enough times that the ending of SSE could use more...

UoE should be the serious attraction at EPCOT Center 2.0 This is where the whole EPCOT Center is relevant to our issues on things such as global warming etc.

The new UoE could entertain, inform, inspire, and be a great place for kids and people with short attentions spans to nap before they head to world showcase.

Wonders of Life is dead, but it doesn't mean the pavilion can't become a new weather pavilion, that can have a thrill ride in there, as well as fun interactive stuff.

You still have M:S and Test Track....I just think Test Track has way too much clutter everywhere.

Innoventions could be designed better I think, and seem much more inviting. Let there be light through those windows!

The Seas, I think could have been done more appropriately...sea base alpha, and the hydrolators all could have remained, but nemo and friends could have educated us on the sea cabs with information about the seas.

The land is nice. Soarin' is a nice touch that celebrates the diversity of the land. Living with the land is good. I think we could use a new symbiosis movie that didn't have characters from over 10 years ago narrating it ala circle of life.

Imagination could get an amazing overhaul. A brand new 21st century Journey Into Imagination, and a 3D movie where figment and dreamfinder take us into the virtual imagination. And new imageworks in the pyramids with new things to see and do but with a few old friends like the rainbow censor tunnel among others.

World showcase should get thrill rides, and some new countries.

It should not be limited to boats and movies.

Disney manageent seems to think that if someone likes something Disney created yesterday or today i.e. movie or tvshow than that most be impleneted into the theme parks to make them show up.....thats a scary and dangerous scenerio.

EPCOT Center 2.0 is not a place about robots and computers and AA rides everywhere...it is a disney theme park that does touch base with reality and the issues facing us. Not every single ride show or attraction would do it, but there would be an overall element of entertain, inform, inspire implemented in various ways into each attraction.

It would be my wish that everyone from EPCOT Center 2.0 can have fun while they are there, but my goal is that yes they spend money to go there, as well as on appropriate themed merchandise areas, and in restaurants, etc...but they hopefully can walk into the EPCOT Center entrance and can see those soaring palm trees, beautiful flowers, fountains, etc and go "Wow"



They can ride thrill rides like test track and mission:Space, can take a break and learn about our energy crisis and what we can do to help it on a revamped UoE....can laugh and feel relaxed at a revamped Imagination...can learn about living with the land while still having fun on soarin'....and can see new technology and studies beeing done at seabase alpha....while still smiling on how nemo and friends taught them a little something about the oceans when they just came off the seacabs before taking the hydrolators back to the "surface of future world".

They can easily get around future world because every pavilion will have a logo. All the signs would have it. They can even understand what the EPCOT Center flower logo is because it would be on future world merchandise sold at mousegears and an explanation could be found in their guidemap.

They can book a reservation at worldkey, they can walk to world showcase, see a movie, watch a performance, window shop, and even take a rollercoaster ride or other thrill ride.

By the time IllumiNations: Sky Dance rolls around, and then ends...the guest leaves EPCOT Center 2.0 admist a color changing SSE, and can say they surely had a good day....they were at Disney, saw some Disney characters, but entered a place that wasn't a spinoff of the magic kingdom, but was a world's fair styled into a theme park that could be executed and give a message that only Disney could do. :sohappy:

...Beautiful.I want to go to THAT Epcot.

Marni,you are absolutely right.Epcot is on the verge of a new era.We have had the "Center Era" the "Innoventions Era",the "Millenium Era" and "The Wand Era"Perhaps now we will go into a rededicated Era in which the old virtues and concepts of EPCOT Center will be reintroduced and seen again in a new updated venue.

We can only hope.

 

[Dragonrider1227]

I completely agree with your post. But isn't this true of all entertainment? Look at TV - mindless reality shows and copycat dramas that are mostly dead-body-of-the-week shows.

And is Disney to blame or are the guests? Didn't I read many posts that EPCOT was boring, that people didn't want to sit through slow rides like Horizons and some dumb thing on the history of transportation? That they didn't want to stand for 18 minutes and listen to some unknown Chinese poet ramble on and on (so they cut it to 12 minutes). And now we get Martin Short and cartoons for Mexico - far more entertaining than the stodgy old shows, right? Didn't guests cry for Disney characters in EPCOT?

Again, while I agree with your lament on EPCOT (and I share it), I wonder if it's just not a reflection of culture in general. Everything is becoming generic. Disney sees EPCOT as a marketing arm as much as a product in itself. That's why you saw The Incredibles DVD (a couple years ago) for sale at the American Adventure. That's why while watching CHUCK the other night on NBC they had a logo for a new show in the corner of the screen throughout the entire show (I put tape over it!). One show is just a marketing arm for another show - and so on...

I think if Disney thought guests wanted 20-minute cerebral attractions, we would not have gotten M:S and TT. It would be fascinating to read guest surveys conducted over the years.

On a similar topic: Many posters wonder why Disney doesn't build more attractions in World Showcase. Why? Because the restaurants are full. Le Cellier is booked out months in advance. Why build attractions to lure people to the money-making spots when they're already full? Someone lamented that Disney treats WS as if it's a glorified shopping mall, but that is how guests treat it. They book Le Cellier months in advance, show up right at ADR time, eat then leave. They probably don't even see the movie. Disney knows this. Look at Japan. The store is packed (it recently expanded) and both eateries are lined up. So you need an attraction why?

I think that's the reason right there. Disney quickly learned it's guests didn't want a theme park about well... reality XD Although, Disney (like many other companies today) have trouble finding a happy middle. It has to all appeal to one audience, or it all has to appeal to another.
and on WS, I agree with you there. If anything, I think more attractions would probably kinda cheapen it. the idea is to feel like you're in those countries and what do you do when you're in other countries? You view the sites, shop their shops, and eat their exotic foods. Why would WS need anything more?

 

[ChrisQ]

You are right on the mark .. Epcot has lost its inspiration for cheaper brand of fun. There is really little left relating to inspiration other than Living with the Land and I believe its only a matter of time before we see Mickey or Stitch in there. Its really a shame.

Oh no, please not Stitch! Anybody but Stitch!

 

[catne]

I love EPCOT, now & then

Sorry, I can't agree with negative comments about EPCOT. So far, I like all the changes, including rides like Soarin'...there's a reason there are long lines for that ride: it's worth it. And I think it fits the theme of the building perfectly. Yes, I saw EPCOT back when it was EPCOT Center, and the emphasis was still on brave-new-day storyline. Way back-in-the-day, before 1990 (even saw Captain EO...my 10 yr old son loved that 3-d movie so much we went back like 3 times in the same day to see it again. You know, Disney would have had to ditch that deal anyway--with Michael Jackson starring in it, once all the bad press starting on him & his antics, Disney couldn't continue to be associated with that.) One thing I noticed way back when was all the absolutely blatant "sponsored by" advertising which went with every single building/display/attraction. So what's the diff now if it's a Disney cartoon character doing the sponsoring instead? Actually, I enjoy the Diz characters popping up more than all the corporate sponsor junk that used to proliferate everything. Bottom line--I love the Mouse, & almost every other character Diz has ever come up with. So bring 'em on.

 

[JLW11Hi]

I think the biggest problem is how little people can look ahead to new and different kinds of entertainment. Epcot, as with all the parks, is there to entertain. But does that automatically mean adding Nemo and Martin Short?

There are many ways to entertain people. Look at Reflections of Earth. Pure entertainment, inspiring, and it does all this without any actors/characters. Yes, its a fireworks show, but its a good example of what kind of entertainment Epcot should strive for. It lifts the spirit, it tells a story, and it is fun.

The argument always seems to be between "boring, old animatronics dark rides" vs. "Cheap redos with Disney characters and no soul"

I think there should be more options...

Soarin' is a good example of a positive addition to Epcot. Fun and original