The Muppets Present… Great Moments in American History'

[CanadianGordon]

Sigh.

 

[CanadianGordon]

If you don't like it stay out of the thread then, instead of continuing to come in here telling everyone they are wrong for liking something you don't.

Hear hear.

 

[Santa Raccoon 77]

 

[TabulaRasa]

I have said from the beginning that I don't like purchased IPs being pushed into areas of the parks where they don't belong. I don't like Star Wars being put into the back of Disneyland. I don't like Guardians of the Galaxy going into Epcot (or, heaven forbid, into DHS' Tower). That's it. The Muppet acquisition is an object lesson that buying something that used to be popular isn't always a wise move. People who say Disney hasn't tried hard enough with them, or just don't "get" them, are being ridiculous. Disney's done everything it could. Two movies, a strong online presence, a TV show...what else could it do to try to revive their popularity? Sometimes, what's dead is dead.

My issue with what you typically post is that you consistently state that the Muppets franchise is dead. It is not. There is a fanbase, as evidenced by the Jason Segel movie, and the pilot episode of the new TV show. I've said it before, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Disney has mishandled them with subpar writing and unwise creative direction. For example, the reason why Muppets Most Wanted wasn't as successful as it's predecessor is because, in my opinion, the concept never connected with audiences. Two Kermits wasn't a selling point to go and see the movie. Plus, it was released in March, which was a stupid move as well. Had it been released near the holidays, it would have done better. As for the TV show, it had a MASSIVE ratings turn out for the pilot, which just proves that people like the Muppets. Why did audiences dwindle? Overly competitive Tuesday nights, writing that needed time to develop, and by that time the show started getting better, the audience was gone. Had ABC placed this in the middle of their Wednesday comedy block, it would have done better and had more of a chance to grow.

 

[JohnD]

My issue with what you typically post is that you consistently state that the Muppets franchise is dead. It is not. There is a fanbase, as evidenced by the Jason Segel movie, and the pilot episode of the new TV show. I've said it before, but it ultimately comes down to the fact that Disney has mishandled them with subpar writing and unwise creative direction. For example, the reason why Muppets Most Wanted wasn't as successful as it's predecessor is because, in my opinion, the concept never connected with audiences. Two Kermits wasn't a selling point to go and see the movie. Plus, it was released in March, which stupid move as well. Had it been released near the holidays, it would have done better. As for the TV show, it had a MASSIVE ratings turn out for the pilot, which just proves that people like the Muppets. Why did audiences dwindle? Overly competitive Tuesday nights, writing that needed time to develop, and by that time the show started getting better, the audience was gone. Had ABC placed this in the middle of their Wednesday comedy block, it would have done better and had more of a chance to grow.

Agree with most. Disagree with "writing that needed time to develop". They intentionally went with a more "adult" direction which turned off the fan base and forced parents who grew up with it to turn it off so as not to expose their children to it. By the time of the mid-season opener where they intended to tone it down, it was too late. The damage had been done and they couldn't recover. It was cancelled. I don't enjoy saying this. I write this as a fan.

The WDW show is The Muppets that fans remember.

 

[AEfx]

I must say at first I had some doubts about the Muppets in Liberty Square. But now that I've watched them, I retract my words and say that this is a travesty, a further defilement of what was once one of the greatest and most dignified areas of WDW.

Thanks for making me laugh. It's been a rough day and I needed that. Thinking both of someone using the term "dignified" in terms of a theme park (particularly the MK) and the fact that if you believe that, then the Muppets have done their job as their very core is their irreverence.

 

[AEfx]

Agree with most. Disagree with "writing that needed time to develop". They intentionally went with a more "adult" direction which turned off the fan base and forced parents who grew up with it to turn it off so as not to expose their children to it. By the time of the mid-season opener where they intended to tone it down, it was too late. The damage had been done and they couldn't recover. It was cancelled. I don't enjoy saying this. I write this as a fan.

The WDW show is The Muppets that fans remember.

Eh I don't think the so-called "adult" humor was the problem. It's aimed at adults who get it and such things went over kids heads. It was wildly overblown and largely a product of "a few thousand who call themselves millions" moms online.

The real issue with the show was the format. It was at least five years too late for an Office-parody type thing. What they should have done was what they still should do - a revival of the gosh darned Muppet Show.

The problem is, variety television is very expensive to make. I just finished Carol Burnette's new book which outlines pretty well why it doesn't work today outside of SNL (which isn't even a traditional variety show to begin with).

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Thanks for making me laugh. It's been a rough day and I needed that. Thinking both of someone using the term "dignified" in terms of a theme park (particularly the MK) and the fact that if you believe that, then the Muppets have done their job as their very core is their irreverence.

Current MK is a zoo, the worst park in Orlando. And that includes that cop raided trailer park up north I drove past.

Classic MK however is dignified and remarkably sophisticated: the castle mosaics (now mostly inaccessible), the lobby of the Walt Disney Story (meet & grope with Tink), the calm aloofness of HoP, the classic Americana of the Liberty Bell and Tree and paddlewheel boats and Mark Twain, the stately elegance of Main Street (with West Street, specialty shops, an actual cinema in the cinema, curbs, period vehicles, flower market). Dignified, yes. ^_^

 

[JohnD]

Eh I don't think the so-called "adult" humor was the problem. It's aimed at adults who get it and such things went over kids heads. It was wildly overblown and largely a product of "a few thousand who call themselves millions" moms online.

The real issue with the show was the format. It was at least five years too late for an Office-parody type thing. What they should have done was what they still should do - a revival of the gosh darned Muppet Show.

The problem is, variety television is very expensive to make. I just finished Carol Burnette's new book which outlines pretty well why it doesn't work today outside of SNL (which isn't even a traditional variety show to begin with).

True. It did have an "Office" or "30 Rock" vibe but it was widely reported that fans were turned off by the tone. The original writer(s) was(were) fired after the mid-season finale and new writers were brought in. Too late. Not enough to save the show.

 

[AEfx]

Current MK is a zoo, the worst park in Orlando. And that includes that cop raided trailer park up north.

Classic MK however is dignified and remarkably sophisticated: the castle mosaics (now mostly inaccessible), the lobby of the Walt Disney Story (now a meet & grope with Tink), the calm aloofness of HoP, the classic Americana of the Liberty Bell and Tree and paddlewheel boats and Mark Twain, the stately elegance of Main Street (with West Street, specialty shops, an actual cinema in the cinema, curbs, period vehicles, flower market). Dignified, yes. ^_^

Right, but you realize that outside of the Disney bubble considering anything in an artificially built theme park as "dignified" is pretty amusing, don't you? It's the same look you get when you say you can't wait to try out the McDonalds at the Louvre.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Current MK is a zoo, the worst park in Orlando. And that includes that cop raided trailer park up north I drove past.

Classic MK however is dignified and remarkably sophisticated: the castle mosaics (now mostly inaccessible), the lobby of the Walt Disney Story (meet & grope with Tink), the calm aloofness of HoP, the classic Americana of the Liberty Bell and Tree and paddlewheel boats and Mark Twain, the stately elegance of Main Street (with West Street, specialty shops, an actual cinema in the cinema, curbs, period vehicles, flower market). Dignified, yes. ^_^

There will always be those who do not see themed design as an art form. It's unfortunate, but it is what it is. It's also the reason we have Frozen in Norway and Muppets in Liberty Square.

With that said, I really like this show and it's great that somebody was finally able to once again capture what makes the Muppets great. The writing is fantastic, and I must say that Entertainment has been knocking it out of the park lately. It's been a long time since there was a quality offering with these characters. I still don't think it has any place in Liberty Square, though.

 

[AEfx]

True. It did have an "Office" or "30 Rock" vibe but it was widely reported that fans were turned off by the tone. The original writer(s) was(were) fired after the mid-season finale and new writers were brought in. Too late. Not enough to save the show.

Yes, widely reported based on a niche internet Facebook group who pretends to have 50-100x more members than it actually has, LOL.

That's the sad part of the media today - where so many stories are sourced based simply on social media outcry.

One would think that Miss Piggy was flashing her bare bottom and Pepe was telling The Aristocrats every week. It wasn't like that at all.

The core of the Muppet appeal is exactly the irreverence that was shown on that show. The pilot of the Muppets was "Sex and Violence". They go their big start on Saturday Night Live. Even the vintage Muppet Show had these occasionally racy moments.

The problem was not how they were portrayed, it was that they were wrapped in a passé format which limits the humor and zany, irreverent "in the moment" antics that Muppets are all about. The passive narrative nature just does not fit at all with them. It's why I stopped watching the show, huge Muppet fan I am. I can't stand the bone dry humor that format forces, and the whole "mockumentary" schtick.

 

[JohnD]

Yes, widely reported based on a niche internet Facebook group who pretends to have 50-100x more members than it actually has, LOL.

That's the sad part of the media today - where so many stories are sourced based simply on social media outcry.

One would think that Miss Piggy was flashing her bare bottom and Pepe was telling The Aristocrats every week. It wasn't like that at all.

The core of the Muppet appeal is exactly the irreverence that was shown on that show. The pilot of the Muppets was "Sex and Violence". They go their big start on Saturday Night Live. Even the vintage Muppet Show had these occasionally racy moments.

The problem was not how they were portrayed, it was that they were wrapped in a passé format which limits the humor and zany, irreverent "in the moment" antics that Muppets are all about. The passive narrative nature just does not fit at all with them. It's why I stopped watching the show, huge Muppet fan I am. I can't stand the bone dry humor that format forces, and the whole "mockumentary" schtick.

I have no knowledge about a Facebook group. Entertainment Weekly actually comes to mind. It says exactly what I already stated. Regardless of what you or I remember about the show, it wasn't The Muppets that fans remember.

 

[The Empress Lilly]

Right, but you realize that outside of the Disney bubble considering anything in an artificially built theme park as "dignified" is pretty amusing, don't you? It's the same look you get when you say you can't wait to try out the McDonalds at the Louvre.

The outright dismissal of Disney as non-culture or anti-culture has always been a mistake. Snobbery. Uniformed semi-intellectualism safely hiding its incompetence in a culturally correct position.

By coincidence, I myself hold an annual pass to two Disney resorts, and I am a benefactor of the Louvre. I am that much of a self-assured independent mind I have no need to associate with the correct cultural goods as if they were a brand name on my clothes.

Disneyland is America's greatest post-war urban experiment. Walt Disney World was surprisingly sophisticated, more than it ever received credit for or wanted to advertise itself as since at some point during Eisner's reign. And EPCOT Center, that was a singular, unique....well something, something utterly magnificent that defies description, which may be part of the reason why it never defended itself well.

 

[AEfx]

I have no knowledge about a Facebook group. Entertainment Weekly actually comes to mind. It says exactly what I already stated. Regardless of what you or I remember about the show, it wasn't The Muppets that fans remember.

Yes, they are referring to earlier coverage of social media "outrage" which was orchestrated and generated by a Facebook group before the show actually even aired. http://onemillionmoms.com/current-campaigns/warning-the-new-muppets-is-not-family-friendly/

Regardless, I guess we will just disagree on the result - I had no problem whatsoever with the Muppets as they appeared, what turned me off was the format of show they forced around them. It was already outdated and hindered the show tremendously.

The "adult" nature of the show was a joke - they simply made fleeting references to Muppets having private lives. There was nothing any where near as salacious as folks want to paint it.

 

[JohnD]

Yes, they are referring to earlier coverage of social media "outrage" which was orchestrated and generated by a Facebook group before the show actually even aired. http://onemillionmoms.com/current-campaigns/warning-the-new-muppets-is-not-family-friendly/

Regardless, I guess we will just disagree on the result - I had no problem whatsoever with the Muppets as they appeared, what turned me off was the format of show they forced around them. It was already outdated and hindered the show tremendously.

The "adult" nature of the show was a joke - they simply made fleeting references to Muppets having private lives. There was nothing any where near as salacious as folks want to paint it.

Do you realize it's possible to watch the show on your own and come away with the same opinion? For me, I didn't have a problem with the format. So our opinions are completely 180 degrees apart.

 

[Castle Cake Apologist]

Yes, they are referring to earlier coverage of social media "outrage" which was orchestrated and generated by a Facebook group before the show actually even aired. http://onemillionmoms.com/current-campaigns/warning-the-new-muppets-is-not-family-friendly/

Regardless, I guess we will just disagree on the result - I had no problem whatsoever with the Muppets as they appeared, what turned me off was the format of show they forced around them. It was already outdated and hindered the show tremendously.

The "adult" nature of the show was a joke - they simply made fleeting references to Muppets having private lives. There was nothing any where near as salacious as folks want to paint it.

The best part is that 1MM seems to think they were personally responsible for it being cancelled.

 

[AEfx]

The outright dismissal of Disney as non-culture or anti-culture has always been a mistake. Snobbery. Uniformed semi-intellectualism safely hiding its incompetence in a culturally correct position.

I can't say I disagree, but I still find it humorous (and a bit hypocritical) there is this whole other batch of snobbery and uninformed semi-intellectualism that exists within the Disney sphere which can be selectively applied as it is by a few here in the Muppets in Liberty Square discussion. That people clearly enjoying this (and giving that area more attention than it has had in decades) simply don't know any better and that they should be offended at it's presence. It is Disney snobbery at its finest.

 

[JohnD]

The best part is that 1MM seems to think they were personally responsible for it being cancelled.

(Swipe hand over my head). No clue. I watched the show on my own and agreed with what was said in the media. The whole "private lives" thing was the turn off. They didnt aim for the irreverent humor the Muppets are known for. Instead Kermit and Piggy are separated, Kermit has a girlfriend pig, the cast and crew are afraid of Piggy and her tantrums. They hang out in bars: I agree there were no pasties or whatever. But it was a harder edge to the characters than fans remember. Not exactly family oriented. Fans of The Muppets spoke. It was cancelled.

 

[FoozieBear]

(Swipe hand over my head). No clue. I watched the show on my own and agreed with what was said in the media. The whole "private lives" thing was the turn off. They didnt aim for the irreverent humor the Muppets are known for. Instead Kermit and Piggy are separated, Kermit has a girlfriend pig, the cast and crew are afraid of Piggy and her tantrums. They hang out in bars: I agree there were no pasties or whatever. But it was a harder edge to the characters than fans remember. Not exactly family oriented. Fans of The Muppets spoke. It was cancelled.

The problem was that the show, oddly, was trying to be exactly what The Muppets aren't. And brining in Bill Prady from the Big Bang Theory to helm the show was a weird mistake, and for some reason he pushed the characters to be something else, which was odd, because the only reason fans would tune in is because they enjoy the Muppets in their previous iterations.

Being "adult" wasn't the problem. The Muppets have always been subtle and tognue in cheek about their humor from time to time, but their biggest problem was the character portrayal. The characters just became cynical and mean-and the joy was gone. The show really hit its stride by it's seventh episode, too bad audiences didn't have more patience.