The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[Brer Panther]

I'm becoming more and more convinced that we're entering a new era of declining quality and poor guest experience for the parks. Corona is part of it of course, but man.

Oh yeah. That new era started in, I think, 2018. Maybe 2017.

These creators are redoing Splash Mountain...

I can't see how anyone has any faith in them pulling off a retheme of Splash Mountain if they can't pull off a retheme of a less elaborate and not as highly themed ride like this...

 

[CaptinEO]

I hope you’ve got your expectations set to extremely low or have no expectations at all, unless they are related to disappointment. I’m 100% prepared to dislike this new PatF ride. Now I won’t be disappointed if I actually do dislike it and I’ll be pleasantly surprised if I do (highly unlikely).

They are extremely low, which is super depressing. My biggest issue isn't the theme being removed, it's modern WDI replacing a ride from classic WDI.

 

[CaptinEO]

Oh yeah. That new era started in, I think, 2018. Maybe 2017.

I can't see how anyone has any faith in them pulling off a retheme of Splash Mountain if they can't pull off a retheme of a less elaborate and not as highly themed ride like this...

I'd say 2017 with Guardians was the first time I noticed a huge downward shift in quality from Disney.

They actually spent the 60th (2015) updating the Matterhorn, Alice, and Peter Pan as well as adding new fireworks, parades, and World of Color.

2016 saw them creating Grizzly Peak and updating Soarin to Soarin Over The World. In my opinion this was a downgrade but was still a good ride and it kept the style/theme of its predecessor.

2017 had Guardians. 2018 Pixar Pier, which is the worst thing ever. 2019 we have Star Wars Land which missed the mark in so many ways and takes up so much space, at least Rise is a great spectacle.

I did actually really like the Snow White update.

I really don't know what the future holds. This Cars Ride is beyond early 00's Eisner bad, which is probably the worst insult anyone could give to a themepark attraction.

I never visited frequently enough to firsthand know all the downgrades to Disney in the late 90s/early 2000s (although I do remember riding the original subs as a toddler). But at this time you had the loss of:

Country Bears
Skyway
People Mover
Submarines
Keel Boats
Swiss Family Treehouse
Jolly Trolley
Circlevision

 

[Californian Elitist]

They are extremely low, which is super depressing. My biggest issue isn't the theme being removed, it's modern WDI replacing a ride from classic WDI.

I have an issue with both, but yeah, current Imagineering is pathetic and they haven’t impressed me in many years.

 

[CaptinEO]

I have an issue with both, but yeah, current Imagineering is pathetic and they haven’t impressed me in many years.

I think what also rubs me the wrong way is the documentary where they just praise themselves and say how criticism is wrong. It's so self serving, they forgot they are making attractions for the public.

 

[Rich T]

Meanwhile, Universal opens Secret Life of Pets and Velocicoaster, to the delight of just about everyone.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I know around here we prefer to throw the Imagineers, as a whole, under the bus when we don't like something, but many times I don't think it's the actual Imagineers themselves that weren't creative enough to come up with new and exciting content, but rather it's the bean-counting, fiscally-minded management types that tamp down that creativity in favor of more "cost-effective" products that wind up being awful.

Anecdotally, I've been told that the key word at WDI is, "can't". As in, "we can't do this, we can't do that. It costs too much" etc.

Bottom line, I believe there is still creativity left within the halls of WDI, but unfortunately it's just not allowed to go beyond the "box" that management puts it in.

 

[lazyboy97o]

I know around here we prefer to throw the Imagineers, as a whole, under the bus when we don't like something, but many times I don't think it's the actual Imagineers themselves that weren't creative enough to come up with new and exciting content, but rather it's the bean-counting, fiscally-minded management types that tamp down that creativity in favor of more "cost-effective" products that wind up being awful.

Anecdotally, I've been told that the key word at WDI is, "can't". As in, "we can't do this, we can't do that. It costs too much" etc.

Bottom line, I believe there is still creativity left within the halls of WDI, but unfortunately it's just not allowed to go beyond the "box" that management puts it in.

Things cost too much because Walt Disney Imagineering’s costs are completely out of control. For almost anybody else in the industry there would be no proverbial box with so much money available.

 

[Mac Tonight]

Things cost too much because Walt Disney Imagineering’s costs are completely out of control. For almost anybody else in the industry there would be no proverbial box with so much money available.

Then maybe they should fire their accountants.

 

[mickEblu]

I know around here we prefer to throw the Imagineers, as a whole, under the bus when we don't like something, but many times I don't think it's the actual Imagineers themselves that weren't creative enough to come up with new and exciting content, but rather it's the bean-counting, fiscally-minded management types that tamp down that creativity in favor of more "cost-effective" products that wind up being awful.

Anecdotally, I've been told that the key word at WDI is, "can't". As in, "we can't do this, we can't do that. It costs too much" etc.

Bottom line, I believe there is still creativity left within the halls of WDI, but unfortunately it's just not allowed to go beyond the "box" that management puts it in.

I agree with the sentiment but we have examples that seemingly have nothing to do with the restrictions.

- The script on the new POTC auction scene

- The aesthetic choice for the Collectors Tower

- The locked in timeline at GE being prioritized to fun and entertainment

- Poultry Palace

- Jack Jack on Sticks


I mean some of these things are subtraction by addition. The Pixar Pier vista would be better without Poultry Palace. Incredicoaster would be better without Jack Jack on Sticks.

 

[DavidDL]

The Pier would have been better than it is right now if they literally had done nothing at all.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I agree with the sentiment but we have examples that seemingly have nothing to do with the restrictions.

- The script on the new POTC auction scene

- The aesthetic choice for the Collectors Tower

- The locked in timeline at GE being prioritized to fun and entertainment

- Poultry Palace

- Jack Jack on Sticks


I mean some of these things are subtraction by addition. The Pixar Pier vista would be better without Poultry Palace. Incredicoaster would be better without Jack Jack on Sticks.

You have a point on some of those, though whose to say if things like GE's time constraints weren't also mandated from above? Also, I'd consider all of Pixar Pier to be a flaw of management. I think it was a MiceChat article during the construction that basically admitted that it was all being done as a vanity project for WDI to "prove" to Chapek that they could still bring a project in on time and under budget. Surely that had some hand in lowering the quality of the execution.

 

[mickEblu]

You have a point on some of those, though whose to say if things like GE's time constraints weren't also mandated from above? Also, I'd consider all of Pixar Pier to be a flaw of management. I think it was a MiceChat article during the construction that basically admitted that it was all being done as a vanity project for WDI to "prove" to Chapek that they could still bring a project in on time and under budget. Surely that had some hand in lowering the quality of the execution.

Management for sure is making it harder for WDI to their job but what excuse is their for the POTC script, the Collectors Tower, or Jack Jack on sticks? Those were creative choices. I don’t think the locked in timeline at GE was a mandate from management. I keep remembering Trowbridge confusingly asking guests at that convention(?) if they liked the approach they took with GE.

I guess the point I’m making is that even though the issue for the most part is stemming from upper management, WDI appears to be dropping the ball with small things that at least on the outside look to have nothing to do with the handcuffs placed on them. Half of us here could have written a better script for the new auction scene on POTC. I’m pretty sure Chapek didn’t mandate Jack Jack on sticks or that the Collectors Fortress had to be an eyesore. WDI is not exactly shining in the darkness but I guess we ll never know how much worse it could be without some of the talented people in WDI doing what they can.

 

[DavidDL]

I would imagine it's got to be a matter of who approaches who first. If management approaches WDI with a crummy idea to "prove something" or shoehorn something in for whatever reason they might have, it's going to be up to WDI to work within the limits management gives them. Something like Mission: Breakout comes about because management was upset that the parks didn't have Marvel in them yet and that the licensing of CBS' Twilight Zone was (iirc) putting Photopass restrictions on them or causing them to pay royalties.

I sincerely doubt someone at WDI approached management with the concept of replacing one of their most popular attractions and one of their best ideas for the park with something like Mission: Breakout, on their own free will. They were likely ordered to come up with a concept that was affordable and quickly buildable, by those above them.

That said, if management is ever in the situation where they are simply accepting Blue-Sky concepts or are trying to be convinced of what idea they should build next, then it falls more on the Imagineers to try and deliver something as best they can.

The problem is, Imagineers these days know what is likely to be approved and what is going to be rejected by management. They likely know in advance that something needs to either be created with synergy in mind or with a cheap budget, so perhaps they aren't swinging for the fences immediately. Some continue to do so but are rejected almost immediately, per their testimonials. But I suppose there's still some responsibility for WDI to bear here. After all, the parks have built more with less in the past so it's not like it can't be done. Getting management's approval is key, though. It's a tricky balancing act.

I don't think everything that comes out of WDI these days is bad, though. I actually really enjoy stuff like Galaxy's Edge and appreciate the amount they were willing to invest in it and some of the creative risks they were willing to take. But that doesn't mean everything they touch is gold, either (Pixar Pier, Avengers Campus, etc.). In the end, all parts of the company are run by humans. Humans do good and humans do bad.

 

[SuddenStorm]

Wow, and I thought WEB-SLINGERS was bad. This is one of the worst things Disney’s ever done. And then, at the end, to have the animated on-tram hosts gushing (obnoxiously) about how amazingly fun it supposedly was... In all seriousness, how stupid does Disney think people are?

Just a reminder that this is the same Disney that's currently redoing the Jungle Cruise, and will soon be completely 'reimagining' Splash Mountain.

 

[CaptinEO]

I know around here we prefer to throw the Imagineers, as a whole, under the bus when we don't like something, but many times I don't think it's the actual Imagineers themselves that weren't creative enough to come up with new and exciting content, but rather it's the bean-counting, fiscally-minded management types that tamp down that creativity in favor of more "cost-effective" products that wind up being awful.

Anecdotally, I've been told that the key word at WDI is, "can't". As in, "we can't do this, we can't do that. It costs too much" etc.

Bottom line, I believe there is still creativity left within the halls of WDI, but unfortunately it's just not allowed to go beyond the "box" that management puts it in.

I disagree. We've seen WDI get great properties to work on with all kinds of wild budgets and they still fail.

I'm not talking about the guy fresh out of college doing artwork for WDI, I mean the entire division is flawed, most likely due to its own management. They've proven that they output bad products and are overly expensive time after time.

Most of the "budget cuts" people blame Chapek for are not budget cuts, but WDI exhausting their budget too quickly, while work is still left to be done.

Also at this point if you actually were a creative, why would you want to work for WDI? You only make tie in products for someone else's film, you will have no creative freedom.

 

[Mac Tonight]

Management for sure is making it harder for WDI to their job but what excuse is their for the POTC script, the Collectors Tower, or Jack Jack on sticks? Those were creative choices. I don’t think the locked in timeline at GE was a mandate from management. I keep remembering Trowbridge confusingly asking guests at that convention(?) if they liked the approach they took with GE.

I guess the point I’m making is that even though the issue for the most part is stemming from upper management, WDI appears to be dropping the ball with small things that at least on the outside look to have nothing to do with the handcuffs placed on them. Half of us here could have written a better script for the new auction scene on POTC. I’m pretty sure Chapek didn’t mandate Jack Jack on sticks or that the Collectors Fortress had to be an eyesore. WDI is not exactly shining in the darkness but I guess we ll never know how much worse it could be without some of the talented people in WDI doing what they can.

Oh no doubt, WDI on their own often drops the ball. It would be nice if we could know and trust that each person wearing a name badge in Glendale had the same artistic pedigree as guys like Hench, Coates, Crump, Davis, etc... but who knows if even those guys could have thrived under a Chapek regime.

 

[truecoat]

Meanwhile, Universal opens Secret Life of Pets and Velocicoaster, to the delight of just about everyone.

I think the Velocicoaster looks like a tremendous ride but it's theming is sub par except for the velociraptors in the queue.

 

[Mac Tonight]

I disagree. We've seen WDI get great properties to work on with all kinds of wild budgets and they still fail.

I'm not talking about the guy fresh out of college doing artwork for WDI, I mean the entire division is flawed, most likely due to its own management. They've proven that they output bad products and are overly expensive time after time.

Most of the "budget cuts" people blame Chapek for are not budget cuts, but WDI exhausting their budget too quickly, while work is still left to be done.

Also at this point if you actually were a creative, why would you want to work for WDI? You only make tie in products for someone else's film, you will have no creative freedom.

But is their "failure" (to us on here, because let's face it, the general public still eats it up) purely because they just aren't smart or creative enough? Or because someone above them wants X with Y restraints (time, budget, etc) and its up to them to figure out how to achieve it.

I bolded that part of your post too because that was kind of my overall point. I often feel like management often can't get out of their own way enough in contributing to these "disasters" we see and blame the Imagineers for.

 

[mickEblu]

Meanwhile, Universal opens Secret Life of Pets and Velocicoaster, to the delight of just about everyone.

While SLOP is a welcome and needed addition at USH, I prefer every single FL style dark ride at DLR to it. Including Pooh and Monsters.