The Miscellaneous Thought Thread

[Curious Constance]

Wow. It might be to do some maintenance to make sure it’s up and running properly for the opening of Avengers Campus. When I was there 1 or 2 shafts went down.

Been like this for a couple days at least. Good guess though. Probably what it is.

 

[mickEblu]

It is like that because of cast previews. When the previews start for AC, guardians closes and is only open for those attending the preview since it's part of AC now.

Wonder how people who bought park hoppers 6 weeks ago feel about that.

 

[Curious Constance]

It is like that because of cast previews. When the previews start for AC, guardians closes and is only open for those attending the preview since it's part of AC now.

Ahhhhhh, thank you.

 

[mickEblu]

I didn't even think about that.

I know when the land opens if/when they hit capacity they plan to have one entrance and one exit to the land. So you'll only be able to get to guardians if you make it into the land.

By making it into the land you mean getting a Spidey reservation?

 

[Rich T]

There aren’t enough seats available for most rides. Yes you can wait and people chose not to wait, but there is a limit. Letting people chose to wait can be nice for guests willing to do so but it also has negatives that do impact the guest experience. Disney doesn’t close the line until park closing, meaning those hours of people queued up are going to be cycled through the ride. That means extra late hours for the employees working the attraction and other facilities as the ride cycles through those last riders. A ride open hours later than the park is also getting less work done on it at night, an issue for new rides that continue to be adjusted after opening and more so for one as problematic as Rise of the Resistance. Sure, the queue could be closed before the park, but then we’re right back to people being unable to board. And even if you chose not to deal with the long line you may be stuck having to navigate around it as it spills out into the park (I still remember that long queue for the Indiana Jones Adventure the summer it opened).

It makes sense to allocate capacity when demand is far greater and there is tolerance for long waits. In ways it opens up the ability to experience an attraction as queuing for multiple hours does require a certain degree of physical and mental stamina and the luxury of time. A true lottery where one signs up beforehand would at least be honest in its randomness and remove the stress of having to hit a button at the right fraction of a second and hope you have a good connection that if fractions of a second faster than thousands of others.

Disagree on so much here, and you sidestepped my question: No, no guest who wanted to ride and was willing to wait for a normally operating attraction has ever before been unable to do so because there wasn’t enough room for them.

The fair and reliable method of “Waiting your turn in line” guarantees that (excluding breakdowns) everyone who wants to ride gets to ride. And for those wishing to avoid a long wait in line, there’s this magical, wonderful technique called arriving early.

And about the CMs: Anyone signing up to work a mega-popular attraction in a park knows they’re in for late nights and extra hours. I’m sure they’d prefer that to getting spit at when telling a family that spent thousands they can’t ride Star Wars because... The Force just wasn’t with them?

The current situation stinks and could have been avoided through better design and less emphasis on Guest Spending. This is a case where Disney has put greed (and Imagineers have put showboating) ahead of guest experience.

 

[smooch]

This whole system just seems like a nightmare, I haven't been since SWGE opened so I haven't experienced it myself, but I know if I finally take a trip and spend my money and go to DLR and at 7 AM I can't get a boarding group for the ride I want to experience most (I am a big Star Wars fan) I know I won't have an awful day because of it but it will 100% ruin the mood of optimism and excitement in the morning. I also agree with the consensus of everything being done on a phone, which upsets me too. Trust me, when I'm at work and at home I'm on a computer and my phone all day, I have way too much screen time, but at DLR I don't go on my phone unless absolutely necessary, which is becoming more often. I like to disconnect and enjoy the park itself, and I always feel sad when I walk around and see people staring down at a screen instead of just looking all around them and taking in all the little details that make the park so special.

I don't know the point I'm trying to make, I think RotR should not have boarding groups, it should be accessible to all. Disneyland stayed open for days to let everyone ride Star Tours when it opened, why couldn't they do the same for what they hyped to be so so so much bigger of an attraction than Star Tours? If the problem with that is "the ride doesn't work properly and they need to do maintenance every night" then Disney did a bad job making the ride / it shouldn't be open in it's current state, don't open it until it doesn't break down and need hours of repairs every single night to operate properly the next day. Disney 100% tried to show off what they're able to accomplish and did it at the expense of the guest experience.

 

[mickEblu]

Disagree on so much here, and you sidestepped my question: No, no guest who wanted to ride and was willing to wait for a normally operating attraction has ever before been unable to do so because there wasn’t enough room for them.

The fair and reliable method of “Waiting your turn in line” guarantees that (excluding breakdowns) everyone who wants to ride gets to ride. And for those wishing to avoid a long wait in line, there’s this magical, wonderful technique called arriving early.

And about the CMs: Anyone signing up to work a mega-popular attraction in a park knows they’re in for late nights and extra hours. I’m sure they’d prefer that to getting spit at when telling a family that spent thousands they can’t ride Star Wars because... The Force just wasn’t with them?

The current situation stinks and could have been avoided through better design and less emphasis on Guest Spending. This is a case where Disney has put greed (and Imagineers have put showboating) ahead of guest experience.

I agree. Even though this system personally works out in my favor. I like ROTR but I’d never wait more than an hour for it. This system allowed me to walk onto the ride three times. So to add to your point it’s allowing someone like me to ride before some people who are dying to ride and would wait three hours if they had to.

 

[George Lucas on a Bench]

You've joined a Boarding Group for My Response.

Estimated wait time: 369428550 minutes

We've deployed a droid.

 

[DrAlice]

Is GotG really only open from 9-1 every day right now?

I'm glad I'm not the only one continually checking the app to determine line patterns. I can't quite figure out the best time of day for RSR and Soarin.

 

[mickEblu]

I'm glad I'm not the only one continually checking the app to determine line patterns. I can't quite figure out the best time of day for RSR and Soarin.

RSR is long all day so I’d go with first thing in the morning but only if you arrive to the park early enough that you are one of the first few hundred people let into the park because everyone runs there. If not, just step in line before the park closes so the wait time doesn’t eat into your day at the park. Its more fun at night anyway. I wouldn’t go later than 8:30pm just in case they close the line early if it’s too long.

We rode Soarin around 7pm and it was down to about 25 min. Not sure if there is any rhyme or reason to that though.

 

[DrAlice]

RSR is long all day so I’d go with first thing in the morning but only if you arrive to the park early enough that you are one of the first few hundred people let into the park because everyone runs there. If not, just step in line before the park closes so the wait time doesn’t eat into your day at the park. I wouldn’t go later than 8:30pm just in case they close the line early if it’s too long.

We rode Soarin around 7pm and it was down to about 25 min. Not sure if there is any rhyme or reason to that though.

Thanks for the tips! I was leaning toward doing RSR first thing and then wing it with Soarin (puns always intended!). The rest of our faves in DCA tend to hover in the 30-40 min. range which is acceptable. End of the day planning doesn't work well for us as the kid usually implodes to an overstimulated mess around 7pm. We typically call it quits between 6 and 6:30, get dinner and then head to back to the hotel. Having said that, she's two years older than the last time we went, so we might have more wiggle room in that area this year.

 

[CaptinEO]

I'm glad I'm not the only one continually checking the app to determine line patterns. I can't quite figure out the best time of day for RSR and Soarin.

So I was at DCA at rope drop last week. Everyone went to radiator and it had a 2 hour wait time. Yet the whole rest of the day it was a constant 70 minute wait. So just don't go there first thing.

I did toy story and incredicoaster first, but looking back, Guardians would have probably been the best choice for first ride. Guardians said it had a 45 minute wait all day but in reality it took us 65 minutes.

 

[lazyboy97o]

Disagree on so much here, and you sidestepped my question: No, no guest who wanted to ride and was willing to wait for a normally operating attraction has ever before been unable to do so because there wasn’t enough room for them.

The fair and reliable method of “Waiting your turn in line” guarantees that (excluding breakdowns) everyone who wants to ride gets to ride. And for those wishing to avoid a long wait in line, there’s this magical, wonderful technique called arriving early.

And about the CMs: Anyone signing up to work a mega-popular attraction in a park knows they’re in for late nights and extra hours. I’m sure they’d prefer that to getting spit at when telling a family that spent thousands they can’t ride Star Wars because... The Force just wasn’t with them?

The current situation stinks and could have been avoided through better design and less emphasis on Guest Spending. This is a case where Disney has put greed (and Imagineers have put showboating) ahead of guest experience.

I don't know the point I'm trying to make, I think RotR should not have boarding groups, it should be accessible to all. Disneyland stayed open for days to let everyone ride Star Tours when it opened, why couldn't they do the same for what they hyped to be so so so much bigger of an attraction than Star Tours? If the problem with that is "the ride doesn't work properly and they need to do maintenance every night" then Disney did a bad job making the ride / it shouldn't be open in it's current state, don't open it until it doesn't break down and need hours of repairs every single night to operate properly the next day. Disney 100% tried to show off what they're able to accomplish and did it at the expense of the guest experience.

Keeping an attraction open hours after the park has closed is not normal operations.

Every attraction requires some degree of daily maintenance and safety checks. An attraction like Star Tours that uses multiple theaters can do these while the attraction operates because a theater can be closed while the others operate. That multi-day Star Tours event was also a one time occurrence, not something that continued for months on end. With something like a dark ride where there is only one track you have to shut it down. If there is not enough time to get that work done then the attraction has to open later than the park, which means people are being denied access even if they arrived before dawn. Deferring work also plays into downtime, again denying people access.

Yes, there is something to be said for developing more reliable technology, or not building custom versions when a viable product exists, but that also means less boundary pushing. At some point you need to have people riding to really test operational conditions. An extended soft opening has the same issue of denial, as operating hours are sporadic, unannounced and queues more frequently cleared.

Cast Members do unfortunately get berated for a variety of issues. Let’s not pretend that not getting a Boarding Pass is a unique cause of poor behavior that has not previously occurred. There are similar reactions in response to long wait times, delays and downtime.

 

[Animaniac93-98]

Warning: obnoxiously long analytical post...

Users here got me thinking about capacity and what percentage of guests can get on a ride. My intuition is that there was an effort to design rides such that every visiting guest would be able to ride, until around the nineties.

I'll specify what I mean when I say that "every guest is able to ride." I mean that on average day, all guests who meet the criteria for going on an attraction will be able to ride each ride at least once. Most of my data points I'll look at are going to be rides without any height restrictions, though some of these rides might be inappropriate for smaller kids.

So let's go back to 1967. An exciting year for Disneyland. New Tomorrowland debuts hot off the heels of New Orleans Square. Rides from the World's Fair are freshly imported. Pirates of the Caribbean makes its maiden voyage, and Haunted Mansion will be opening soon.

The park sees 7.8 million guests this year, breaking last year's attendance by over a million. Park's operate, on average, 12 hours judging by old photos of the glamorous roadside sign. If it's the off season and you want to visit Disneyland on a Monday or Tuesday, you'll have to go to Knott's instead. Let's say Disneyland's open 300 days this year. That's assuming basically that half the year is off season (5 day operation) and half the year is on season (7 days of operation). That puts us at an average attendance of 26,000 guests.

Now back to the idea of "every guest is able to ride." We're aiming for all these new attractions to have high capacity to reach the demand. Luckily, they learned a lot from the World's Fair where they had even more guests to service. The systems developed there, as well as the attractions themselves, are brought over en masse in just a few years.

Courtesy and efficiency are two keys that lean into one another. It's courteous ensure every single guest can ride every single attraction at least once if they so pleased. So they'll need a capacity to match our average 12 hour day that sees 26,000 guests.

They're basically freebies, but I'll start out with two of the World's Fair imports. First I'll give the theoretical hour capacity, then how much that adds up to on a 12 hour day.
Small World: 2,500/hr ==> 30,000/day
Carousel of Progress: 4,200/hr ==> 50,400/day

Moving onto some other attractions that open within a couple years of 1967.
Pirates of the Caribbean: 2,500/hr ==>30,000/day
Haunted Mansion: 2400/hr ==> 28,800/day
People Mover: 4,885/hr ==> 58,620/day

Over the next decade, attendance surges, while operating hours are expanded. We get the Country Bear Jamboree from WDW, but WED decides to include two theaters to double whatever capacity the original version had. Space Mountain is also improved when it moves to the West and is upgraded to a capacity of 2200/hr. Big Thunder Mountain can allegedly see 2,400/hr.

Now, I'll say the obvious caveats. The numbers are theoretical. And I found them online. But I erred on the lower end when I got conflicting numbers. You can see the rides are designed to have the capacity to service every eligible guest. The two roller coasters that debuted nearly back to back each have impressive capacities in their own right. Numbers are fuzzier here because we don't know how many guests are able to or want to ride these thrill rides, but it seems where still in the realm of being courteous.

Then... something happens. It's a slow trend, but there's signs. Disney buys a log flume from Arrow and makes no evident attempts to increase capacity over one's you'd find at regional parks. It can handle 1,500 guests per hour. The same animals once entertained 4,200 guests/hr in Tomorrowland. The theater sits empty. There's less of a compromise between razzle dazzle and capacity. Indiana Jones Adventure has a respectable 2,400/hr capacity (probably high, but I'm being generous where it hurts my argument), although that's not going to be enough to meet the demands of those rising attendance numbers. Plus, it's opening is paired with the closure of the Skway Buckets to save on operating costs. It's a new phenomena. There's no real net gain of attractions, and the new rides have even worse capacities than the ones from the 60's.

How does that work? Are those capacities just something that come with flashier ride systems? Would it have been possible to engineer a version of Indiana Jones Adventure that made some concessions to allow more guests to ride? Sure, those old rides were cocktail parties and were fine with multiple vehicles in the same area since the effects wound in a loop. These new rides are action, the scenes reset between takes. But I have a feeling with a little more money higher capacity ride systems could have been developed. Old Disney had no problem duplicating tracks if necessary. Of course, with the ticketbook system the capacities corresponded to actual value. I think I remember reading Tony Baxter acknowledge that the ticket system really motivated management to spend more on attractions, he may have even said he longed for it back. I don't think the low capacities were a creative or engineering issue. I think that Imagineering just wasn't given the funding to develop better solutions. That Beauty and the Beast ride at Tokyo Disneyland has crazy capacity, and I think that's because that's what their execs wanted.

Now here we are, and the hottest E Tickets are Rise of the Resistance (1,700/hr) and Radiator Springs Racers (1,500/hr).

I doubt I've changed anyone's mind. Some people think this is the best the company is financially and creatively capable of. Or that having more attractions to select from makes up for the lower capacity. Get your 10 attractions a day and be happy. Even though you might not even have a 50% shot of getting on the one you want most of all.

I should stop now. I enjoyed writing this probably more than anyone reading it. It was probably a bore and maybe confusing, because I'm not rereading it. But it puts things in perspective.

The flume and omnimover systems had never been imagined when New Orleans Square was first designed with two quant walk-thrus. Lucky for those guests the park overdelivered.

Fantastic post.

It should also be noted that as Disney fails to build rides with decent capacity, the onus is on the consumer to do more or pay more, to experience them. The added work, cost and stress makes for a worse experience. Even if you get on the ride, does it live up to the hype?

 

[DrAlice]

So I was at DCA at rope drop last week. Everyone went to radiator and it had a 2 hour wait time. Yet the whole rest of the day it was a constant 70 minute wait. So just don't go there first thing.

This has been my dilemma. lol... I'm tempted to ride Soarin first (because that line is awful in the afternoon), then evaluate the time on RSR. Ugh... It's hard to decide.

First world problems.

 

[No Name]

So just don't go there first thing.

Or just get there before everyone else!

 

[mickEblu]

So I was at DCA at rope drop last week. Everyone went to radiator and it had a 2 hour wait time. Yet the whole rest of the day it was a constant 70 minute wait. So just don't go there first thing.

I did toy story and incredicoaster first, but looking back, Guardians would have probably been the best choice for first ride. Guardians said it had a 45 minute wait all day but in reality it took us 65 minutes.

Well I guess you know better than me since I didn’t rope drop DCA. What time do you think one has to be there to be in the first 100-200 people inside DCA? If she can be there early enough to do that it probably makes sense to do RSR first.

 

[1HAPPYGHOSTHOST]

Never had these type of problems when it was a parking lot. #FACTS

 

[CaptinEO]

Well I guess you know better than me since I didn’t rope drop DCA. What time do you think one has to be there to be in the first 100-200 people inside DCA? If she can be there early enough to do that it probably makes sense to do RSR first.

I'd say don't even bother, just don't go on Radiator first and so something like Guardians or Soarin instead.

 

[CaptinEO]

This has been my dilemma. lol... I'm tempted to ride Soarin first (because that line is awful in the afternoon), then evaluate the time on RSR. Ugh... It's hard to decide.

First world problems.

Absolutely do Soarin first. The entire mob went to RSR instantly. Wait time only went down after 10ish.