The Living Seas of Old Epcot

[Choodles]

Because it was better than the close the doors road.

I guess but while it helped the pavilion it hurt FW IMO!

 

[Fractal514]

I think saying it was this or close is a false dilemma. There is a third option, take the time to make the pavilion both appealing and thematically relevant to Future World.

 

[Master Yoda]

I think saying it was this or close is a false dilemma. There is a third option, take the time to make the pavilion both appealing and thematically relevant to Future World.

And what would that theme be? If there is a formula for a successful pavilion it would appear to be add a character or add a thrill. Old EPCOT was a beautiful thing but it simply did not attract guests.

 

[Fractal514]

But look at Malestrom, that ride is always crowded and it isn't a big thrill ride, nor does it have characters, so splain that?

Also, Gran Fiesta added characters, and is almost always a walk on.

I think you're simplifying things.

 

[Master Yoda]

But look at Malestrom, that ride is always crowded and it isn't a big thrill ride, nor does it have characters, so splain that?

Also, Gran Fiesta added characters, and is almost always a walk on.

I think you're simplifying things.

It is one of only 2 "rides" in all of WS. It benefits from lack of competition. River of Time was less than walk on. My middle daughter and my older brother were able to ride it 18 times without exiting it on a Saturday evening in early December just a couple of years before the change to Gran Fiesta.

 

[THEMEPARKPIONEER]

If it helps ease the pain, Journey into your Imagination has been hosted by a purple flying dragon since the 80's. Now The living Seas has its own character, and the host isnt a mythial creature becides for the fact it can talk.

 

[Choodles]

If it helps ease the pain, Journey into your Imagination has been hosted by a purple flying dragon since the 80's. Now The living Seas has its own character, and the host isnt a mythial creature becides for the fact it can talk.

The difference is Figment was specifically designed for a Eticket dark ride he was meant to be there. Nemo was an existing character just slapped in.

I would have no problem if the wanted to give Nemo something small like COL in The Land but to dedicated a whole pavilion is wrong IMO.

While it fis the Seas it doesn't fit the theme of FW. It would be like puttin a Cowboys and Aliens in Frontierland. While it's a western Aliens don't belong in Frontierland.

 

[Fractal514]

It is one of only 2 "rides" in all of WS. It benefits from lack of competition. River of Time was less than walk on. My middle daughter and my older brother were able to ride it 18 times without exiting it on a Saturday evening in early December just a couple of years before the change to Gran Fiesta.

And frankly, what's wrong with that? I think it's great that some rides are always easy to get on. It makes for a nice place to escape to when the crowds are swarming all over the thrill rides (which i do happen to love as well).

 

[progroupie]

But look at Malestrom, that ride is always crowded and it isn't a big thrill ride, nor does it have characters, so splain that?

Also, Gran Fiesta added characters, and is almost always a walk on.

I think you're simplifying things.

I don't think rides need "characters" in the sense of existing Disney characters neccesarily but they need something that stands out. Maelstrom pulls this off because they have trolls and a very minor thrill element. I also think the ride is a more obvious part of that pavillion where Gran Fiesta is sort of hidden, a lot of people don't realize it's there. It also seems to be a faster loading attraction than Maelstrom.

 

[Master Yoda]

And frankly, what's wrong with that? I think it's great that some rides are always easy to get on. It makes for a nice place to escape to when the crowds are swarming all over the thrill rides (which i do happen to love as well).

What happens to a restaurant that is never busy and is always easy to get into? It closes. Attractions are no different. They cost money to operate and every guest is worth so much to Disney. When guest counts drop to a level that Disney sees an attraction as operating at a loss then that attraction is living on borrowed time. In extreme cases the attraction will simply close or go "seasonal". Baring that the attraction will need to change. That can mean a re-theme like what happened with the living seas or it could mean that the bulldozers come in like at Horizons.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

In my opinion, like many others have said, Nemo saved the pavilion. Besides a few die hards, like myself, that would go, the Living Seas was seeing horrible attendance, with the refurb it becomes a destination for families

I loved the original Sea Base Alpha theme, and still have memorabilia from it, I miss it tremendously, but a group of a few Disney die hards and myself could not save the attraction. Its either a nemo overlay, or a barren pavilion :shrug:, you decide.

And, to defend this version a little bit, it fits perfectly in with the idea of Epcot. Not only does it create interest in learning, but there are still many opportunities for kids (as well as adults) to learn about the seas. Nemo just creates the interest, but the people inside the pavilion are what teach it. Id argue that this is probably the best pavilion at Epcot (besides maybe the Universe of Energy and Spaceship Earth) that stays true to the original intent of Epcot Center. People are not only riding an attraction, but they are learning as well. Cant say that for Soarin, cant say that for Test Track, Cant say that for Mission Space.

The reality is Nemo fits in here, and its awesome to see kids become fascinated with the Ocean. I dont have kids, but Im willing to bet that many get off the ride, explore the tanks and other displays within the pavilion, and after leaving cant wait to share what they learned. It gets and keeps all ages interested, thats a big accomplishment.

Again I miss the old version, but I enjoy this version a lot, and see the brilliance in it.

Well said and agreed. What would be better, a corporation plugging itself instead? I think Living Seas is fine.

 

[Innoventions]

And frankly, what's wrong with that? I think it's great that some rides are always easy to get on. It makes for a nice place to escape to when the crowds are swarming all over the thrill rides (which i do happen to love as well).

Not to sound rude (thats not my intent), but Disney isnt in the the business to make you individually happy they do what they can to make the masses happy. (and make money for themselves) As hard as it is to swallow, those attractions that we love, that see attendance drop, are on their usual last leg. Just like Yoda said so well, its either you see an overlay or the pavilion is Bulldozed. Im glad they didnt remove the seas still one of my favorites.

Being a fan of the original its tough to see the overlay, but I am happy with what they did, there is a following now, I see that as a positive. Alot more traffic, certainly

Disney is still a business, they have to do things that seem smart dollar wise as well, the return they get with Nemo is alot better then what they were getting at the end of its years with sea base alpha. The pavilion still stays true to the original intent. A pavilion that celebrates and informs the guests of the seas, and the creatures included.

Seabase Alpha was amazing, but in a different way so is Nemo.

 

[SleepingMonk]

I think saying it was this or close is a false dilemma. There is a third option, take the time to make the pavilion both appealing and thematically relevant to Future World.

BINGO!!!

Make the Imagineers actually earn their pay or change their job title to Marketing Manager.

If the best they can come up with is "corporate tie-in" to save a pavillion then that's all they are anyway.

 

[SleepingMonk]

Well said and agreed. What would be better, a corporation plugging itself instead? I think Living Seas is fine.

Plugging itself.....like Pixar?

 

[Innoventions]

BINGO!!!

Make the Imagineers actually earn their pay or change their job title to Marketing Manager.

If the best they can come up with is "corporate tie-in" to save a pavillion then that's all they are anyway.

How else would you do it. You cant keep the Sea Base Alpha theme (at least full blown), that failed to bring interest (to the masses). Why is it soo taboo to have a character in a pavilion.
Interesting how you think Imagineers are at fault. Its not sandbox mode in Roller Coaster Tycoon, there is restrictions, theres no unlimited money, and you have to remember Disney has to do whats best for themselves which means profit. If nemo was not included, the Pavilion would not have gotten the attention it needed and either end up like the Wonders of Life or worse, demolished like Horizons.

 

[SleepingMonk]

The "we need a sponsor" line is tired and old and from a completely different time in the US.

Somehow, Universal manages to build amazing rides and themed lands without a corporate sponsor.

Disney could do the same.

And as for the Imagineers earning their keep, I stand by my statement. They could have added to the story, plussed the queue, introduced new undersea elements, animatronics, 3D technology, etc....you know.....used their incredible gift of IMAGINATION to ENGINEER an amazing experience that draws in guests.

Pretty sure that's their job. Not go for the low hanging fruit and wedge a movie in where it doesn't belong because they know it will pull kids and kids pull adults.

 

[Club Cooloholic]

The "we need a sponsor" line is tired and old and from a completely different time in the US.

Somehow, Universal manages to build amazing rides and themed lands without a corporate sponsor.

Disney could do the same.

And as for the Imagineers earning their keep, I stand by my statement. They could have added to the story, plussed the queue, introduced new undersea elements, animatronics, 3D technology, etc....you know.....used their incredible gift of IMAGINATION to ENGINEER an amazing experience that draws in guests.

Pretty sure that's their job. Not go for the low hanging fruit and wedge a movie in where it doesn't belong because they know it will pull kids and kids pull adults.

I think it's great it pulls kids, Epcot has plenty of options for adults, and what I think they did with adding Nemo was say to themselves, how can we provide something that will pull more kids over to Epcot, and they found an answer. It may not work for you as an indivdual, but it works on the whole.

 

[Choodles]

I agree with you WDI is not what it once was and Baxter has been swallowed by the synergy beast.

Nobody at WDI impresses me right now no more revolutionary people like

Marc Davis
Eddie Sotto
Marty Skylar!

 

[SleepingMonk]

My point is why not keep the original theme and intent and still attract kids?

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario.

Keep the seabase, make it more exciting, spark a child's imagination about one day living and working under the sea, what type of transport would you use, what would you do for recreation, what new things might you discover, etc...

It didn't have to be movie tie-in or nothing at all.

 

[Innoventions]

The "we need a sponsor" line is tired and old and from a completely different time in the US.

Somehow, Universal manages to build amazing rides and themed lands without a corporate sponsor.

Disney could do the same.

And as for the Imagineers earning their keep, I stand by my statement. They could have added to the story, plussed the queue, introduced new undersea elements, animatronics, 3D technology, etc....you know.....used their incredible gift of IMAGINATION to ENGINEER an amazing experience that draws in guests.

Pretty sure that's their job. Not go for the low hanging fruit and wedge a movie in where it doesn't belong because they know it will pull kids and kids pull adults.

And I stand by mine, it all takes MONEY. You know how many ideas never make it past the idea and drawing stage because of cost. Seriously man I dont think you understand this concept, your too busy saying what they are not doing, we dont even know more than half of the things Imagineers come up with. There are so many disciplines within the name of an Imagineer, one of them being a "designer" (architecture, interior architecture etc....) Being a designer (interior architecture) myself I know that we are paid not for our completed products but our ideas more than anything.