The Hidden Horror of the Haunted Mansion Queue

inluvwithbeast

inluvwithbeast

New Member
thelookingglass said:
No. Really. It is a very flawed system, and among the multiple threads about Fastpass, posters have given plenty of reasons as to why.

Just because YOU are able to benefit from it does NOT make it a great system. And no offense, but what does traffic management have to do with anything? Is there a highway somewhere in which vehicles who made a "reservation" 2 hours prior are now allowed to return and speed through, while those who just show up are forced into a bumper-to-bumper traffic jam?
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Actually they are very similar. Both involve flow (and mathematical equations). A highway could be seen as a giant queue.
 
Phonedave

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
inluvwithbeast said:
Actually they are very similar. Both involve flow (and mathematical equations). A highway could be seen as a giant queue.
Click to expand...


Quite honestly, somone with a background in traffic management and queueing theory is one of the FEW people I would listen to about their opinion on Fastpass.

I used to do some of the same sort of work back in the days of MicroCyclone. Resource availability, queueing theory, and cyclic crew modeling. That was back in college.

An intersection is a shared resource. E-W traffic cannot use it at the same time as N-S traffic. Signal timing is critical to traffic flow. Correct signal timing can INCREASE throughput.

Anyway. Fastpass is not a horrible flawed system - inherently. Where it is flawed is in how it is used. It is a time shifiting system.

If some people used fastpass to hold a "virtual" spot in line, and insted went and shopped, then line lenghts would not increase over what they are now. The wait time is shifted to shopping time.

If EVERYONE used fastpass, and instead of spending more time shopping (or walking around, or whatever) they spent that time waiting in line for other attractions, the OVERALL wait time would not change. Intead of you and me both spending 30 minutes to wait for attraction A and B, you would wait 15 for A (where you have a fastpass) and 45 for B (where I have). I would wait 45 for A and 15 for B. We both spent the hours in line, but shifted it from one attraction to another.

The flaw (if you want to call it that) is when SOME people (not all) use fastpass to wait in another line. Then you are shifting the wait time from one person to another. The people using fastpass are getting though the lines quicker, while the people not using fastpass are taking longer. THIS is how fastpass is currently being used.

Is it 'fair' to people not using fastpass. Maybe. If you want to tour the parks in a linear fashion, and go on attractions at the spur of the moment, it's not going to work out to well for you. That does not mean it's unfair, it just means you have made a choice to tour the parks your way, and now its going to take longer.

-dave
 
Phonedave

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
blackthidot said:
There is NO chance this happened. I don't care if Superman said he was there and heard it. And we all know in Superman 1 when Lois Lane interviews him he said he never lies.
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I was waiting for somone to point that out.


the General Manager of the Magic Kingdom was attempting to help controll the Fast Pass line, but the guests refused to listen. Only after the General Manager annonced that they would close the Mansion for the rest of the day if the crowd didn't behave
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Really? The GM of a Park got up and basicly said "Look, if all you guests don't shape up, I am going to close this ride". What did he do after that? Make them stand in a corner and take away their Mickey Ice Cream?

-dave
 
inluvwithbeast

inluvwithbeast

New Member
Phonedave said:
Quite honestly, somone with a background in traffic management and queueing theory is one of the FEW people I would listen to about their opinion on Fastpass.

I used to do some of the same sort of work back in the days of MicroCyclone. Resource availability, queueing theory, and cyclic crew modeling. That was back in college.

An intersection is a shared resource. E-W traffic cannot use it at the same time as N-S traffic. Signal timing is critical to traffic flow. Correct signal timing can INCREASE throughput.

Anyway. Fastpass is not a horrible flawed system - inherently. Where it is flawed is in how it is used. It is a time shifiting system.

If some people used fastpass to hold a "virtual" spot in line, and insted went and shopped, then line lenghts would...
Click to expand...

:wave: nice explanation. Thanks!
 
RSoxNo1

RSoxNo1

Well-Known Member
Phonedave said:
Quite honestly, somone with a background in traffic management and queueing theory is one of the FEW people I would listen to about their opinion on Fastpass.

I used to do some of the same sort of work back in the days of MicroCyclone. Resource availability, queueing theory, and cyclic crew modeling. That was back in college.

An intersection is a shared resource. E-W traffic cannot use it at the same time as N-S traffic. Signal timing is critical to traffic flow. Correct signal timing can INCREASE throughput.

Anyway. Fastpass is not a horrible flawed system - inherently. Where it is flawed is in how it is used. It is a time shifiting system.

If some people used fastpass to hold a "virtual" spot in line, and insted went and shopped, then line lenghts would not increase over what they are now. The wait time is shifted to shopping time.

If EVERYONE used fastpass, and instead of spending more time shopping (or walking around, or whatever) they spent that time waiting in line for other attractions, the OVERALL wait time would not change. Intead of you and me both spending 30 minutes to wait for attraction A and B, you would wait 15 for A (where you have a fastpass) and 45 for B (where I have). I would wait 45 for A and 15 for B. We both spent the hours in line, but shifted it from one attraction to another.

The flaw (if you want to call it that) is when SOME people (not all) use fastpass to wait in another line. Then you are shifting the wait time from one person to another. The people using fastpass are getting though the lines quicker, while the people not using fastpass are taking longer. THIS is how fastpass is currently being used.

Is it 'fair' to people not using fastpass. Maybe. If you want to tour the parks in a linear fashion, and go on attractions at the spur of the moment, it's not going to work out to well for you. That does not mean it's unfair, it just means you have made a choice to tour the parks your way, and now its going to take longer.

-dave
Click to expand...

To put it another way, the number of people getting on the rides hasn't changed. However, now guests can be in two places (and depending on how far out the return windows is on their fastpass, three places) at once.

Because Fastpass isn't used at the same efficiency by every guest, it is an unbalanced system that favors those people more familiar with it. However, the aggregate overall wait times should remain constant with or without Fastpass. This assumes that the efficiency of the ride (guests per hour) is unaffected.

From an implementation standpoint, the ride doesn't determine Guest Per Hour based on whether or not the guests used Fastpass or Standby. The issue here becomes are guests more likely to experience a ride using fastpass then they otherwise would if Fastpass didn't exist and the Standby line was slightly shorter. Then there's the opposite effect. Are people turned off by the longer Standby times and opt not to ride the ride.

If you look at an attraction like Toy Story Mania, assume the following on Day X:
The average wait time for Fastpass guests on Day X is 15 minutes
The average wait time for Standby guests on Day X is 120 minutes

If Day Y is identical to Day X in every way, except Toy Story Mania is not operating Fastpass, assume the following:
The average wait time for Toy Story Mania is 60 minutes.

Will there be guests that go to the park on Day Y that will decide to not go on Toy Story Mania because the wait is 60 minutes? Yes. Is it safe to assume that some of these same people would go on Toy Story Mania with a Fastpass on Day X if the wait was only 15 minutes? Yes. It's also safe to assume that if they won't wait for 60 minutes on Day Y, the won't wait for 120 minutes on Day X.

Now, the other side of it. On Day 6, everyone that is willing to wait 120 minutes, would also be willing to wait 60 minutes. However there are likely people that would not be willing to wait the 120 minutes that would be willing to wait for 60 minutes.

An alternative to this system that would probably benefit everyone, but may also complicate things even further would be having Fastpasses assigned to your pass upon entering the park. Meaning that if you enter the park at 9, you would have your available fastpasses for the day assigned to your pass, and you would have more favorable times than someone that entered the park at 11. That effectively happens anyway, but this would eliminate the "fairness" aspect of it.
 
ToTBellHop

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
RSoxNo1 said:
To put it another way, the number of people getting on the rides hasn't changed. However, now guests can be in two places (and depending on how far out the return windows is on their fastpass, three places) at once.

Because Fastpass isn't used at the same efficiency by every guest, it is an unbalanced system that favors those people more familiar with it. However, the aggregate overall wait times should remain constant with or without Fastpass. This assumes that the efficiency of the ride (guests per hour) is unaffected.

From an implementation standpoint, the ride doesn't determine Guest Per Hour based on whether or not the guests used Fastpass or Standby. The issue here becomes are guests more likely to experience a ride using fastpass then they otherwise would if Fastpass didn't exist and the Standby line was slightly shorter. Then there's the opposite effect. Are people turned off by the longer Standby times and opt not to ride the ride.

If you look at an attraction like Toy Story Mania, assume the following on Day X:
The average wait time for Fastpass guests on Day X is 15 minutes
The average wait time for Standby guests on Day X is 120 minutes

If Day Y is identical to Day X in every way, except Toy Story Mania is not operating Fastpass, assume the following:
The average wait time for Toy Story Mania is 60 minutes.

Will there be guests that go to the park on Day Y that will decide to not go on Toy Story Mania because the wait is 60 minutes? Yes. Is it safe to assume that some of these same people would go on Toy Story Mania with a Fastpass on Day X if the wait was only 15 minutes? Yes. It's also safe to assume that if they won't wait for 60 minutes on Day Y, the won't wait for 120 minutes on Day X.

Now, the other side of it. On Day 6, everyone that is willing to wait 120 minutes, would also be willing to wait 60 minutes. However there are likely people that would not be willing to wait the 120 minutes that would be willing to wait for 60 minutes.

An alternative to this system that would probably benefit everyone, but may also complicate things even further would be having Fastpasses assigned to your pass upon entering the park. Meaning that if you enter the park at 9, you would have your available fastpasses for the day assigned to your pass, and you would have more favorable times than someone that entered the park at 11. That effectively happens anyway, but this would eliminate the "fairness" aspect of it.
Click to expand...

It's a good idea, but then the moment someone tries to park hop, that messes everything up. And you would still have Fastpasses run out. Rides like Toy Story Mania have a capacity that does not allow everyone in the park to ride on busier days (or even most days?). And then there are rides that people would get Fastpasses for that they do not want to ride. Truthfully, the current system is about as fair as you can make the system and, while certainly favoring those familiar with the system, is that a bad thing? The same people who don't research the Fastpass system are also going to be unable to have any sit-down meals during their vacation since they won't have reservations. Disney vacations require research.

And missing from some of the assumptions above is the fact than many will choose to ride high-capacity, non-Fastpass attractions while they wait for their Fastpass time, which doesn't substantially raise wait times, but it does allow for seeing more attractions. For example, while waiting for a Splash Fastpass time, I might see the Country Bear Jamboree or ride Pirates or Mansion, or see PhilharMagic--attractions that typically (except for the busiest of days) don't have very long lines due to their high capacities. So I get to see these attractions while I am virtually waiting for Splash. I find Fastpass to greatly increase wait times at parks like the Studios, which don't have many of these high capacity, non-FP attractions...for example, Sunset Blvd. People will very commonly get FP for RnRC and then wait in the typically-shorter line for the ToT since there isn't much else down there. This has greatly increased wait times especially at RnRC, and kept those wait times high right through park close.
 
G

googilycub

Active Member
thelookingglass said:
No. Really. It is a very flawed system, and among the multiple threads about Fastpass, posters have given plenty of reasons as to why.

Just because YOU are able to benefit from it does NOT make it a great system. And no offense, but what does traffic management have to do with anything? Is there a highway somewhere in which vehicles who made a "reservation" 2 hours prior are now allowed to return and speed through, while those who just show up are forced into a bumper-to-bumper traffic jam?
Click to expand...
Again, just because something is said over and over does not make it true. And yes I deal with something very close as you describe every day, although no where did I say it was highways.
 
MotherOfBirds

MotherOfBirds

Well-Known Member
Well this is getting violently OT....

So is this queue going to bottleneck everyone into a little rope-maze before leasing them back to the original queue or will it continue to be a cattle drive in and out?
 
unkadug

unkadug

Follower of "Saget"The Cult
googilycub said:
Again, just because something is said over and over does not make it true. And yes I deal with something very close as you describe every day, although no where did I say it was highways.
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Wow...do you ever read what others have spent time spelling out for you or is your opinion too high and mighty? :rolleyes:
 
the-reason14

the-reason14

Well-Known Member
jakeman said:
In my book it does.

Look, I'm sorry that people think I'm trodding on other people's vacation because of a tin foil hat theory that Fastpass eats babies, but FP allows me to maximize my time in the park.

I'm not really looking to be altruistic with my time on vacation, and spread my waits around evenly so Suzy Q Cheerleader can get on Buzz Lightyear 15 minutes faster.

So really, all of this "Fastpass is the worst thing in the world!" is for naught, because I'm willing to bet that everyone of you that supposedly hates this system uses it to your advantage when the time comes.
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I agree. Flawed or not, which I will agree it is, I know how to use it to it's full advantage and that's all that matters to me.
 
Phonedave

Phonedave

Well-Known Member
RSoxNo1 said:
To put it another way, the number of people getting on the rides hasn't changed. However, now guests can be in two places (and depending on how far out the return windows is on their fastpass, three places) at once.

Because Fastpass isn't used at the same efficiency by every guest, it is an unbalanced system that favors those people more familiar with it. However, the aggregate overall wait times should remain constant with or without Fastpass. This assumes that the efficiency of the ride (guests per hour) is unaffected....
Click to expand...

You make one assumption in your otherwise good analysis.

That the ride never gets to a walk on state, where unfilled containers (ie, ride vehicles) are being dispatched.

But otherwise, yes you are correct.

-dave
 

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