The General's Call to Arms: Epcot's future -- SAVE THE EARTH!

Although Soarin' will be exiting, what are the worst ways it can influence the Land?

  • Kabaret Theatre replaced by queue or gift shop.

    Votes: 23 13.9%
  • Sunshine Season Food Fair removed.

    Votes: 53 31.9%
  • Atmosphere removed with hustle and bustle.

    Votes: 46 27.7%
  • Soarin' over California doesn't match the Land.

    Votes: 40 24.1%
  • Aviation and air doesn't match the Land; symbiosis themes take priority.

    Votes: 31 18.7%
  • The last peaceful pavilion will be lost.

    Votes: 46 27.7%
  • There is nothing wrong.

    Votes: 37 22.3%
  • Other (post)

    Votes: 4 2.4%

  • Total voters
    166

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
dxwwf3 said:
That is really odd. From the videos I've seen of the DCA version, it seems to me that it is just as good as the one we have in WDW, it's just different. Would this have anything to do with the increased capacity with 3 shafts? I don't really know. If I was a DL regular and I had never been to WDW, I would be psyched out of my mind to have that version of ToT. I'm sure it's going to be better than USH's Revenge of the Mummy (If the USF version is any indication).
Justin is exaggerating a bit...The Tower of Terror has been walk on at times during the week, but on most weekday afternoons, it probably sees 20-40 minute waits. Weekends have seen lines up to 80 minutes long. It's not doing as poorly as Al Lutz likes to pretend it is...it also doesn't have Soarin's characteristic 120 minute waits. I think it is so new that some people don't know about it. I know...how could someone not notice a dilapidated 183 foot building? Believe it or not, some people actually think it's a new hotel (lol) and therefore continue to just go to Disneyland instead of DCA. This is the reason for the signs all over the parking garage and on the way to the main entrance to DCA (and within the park) as well as the new McDonalds promotion allowing guests to enter DCA an hour early, at 9 am, to ride the Tower exclusively (for free with a one-day admission ticket). They just need to continue to get the word out about this...maybe people will stop trying to get the Hollywood Tower Hotel's number for reservations then (I kid you not).
 

NemoRocks78

Seized
Premium Member
The_CEO said:
The Teacups are drawing bigger lines than the new ToT....

I think all of the Paradise Pier carnival rides are having longer waits than Tower..... :lol:

ISTCNavigator57 said:
maybe it was broken when you rode or something, cuz I was definitely very high up and there was quite a bit of motion in my hang glider. You are the first person I have ever heard who does not find it thrilling.

Great ride? Yes, very good. (It gets pretty boring after a couple rides though)
Thrilling? Not at all.

It only moves back and forth slowly. Not very "thrilling" if you ask me.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
NemoRocks78 said:
Great ride? Yes, very good. (It gets pretty boring after a couple rides though)
Thrilling? Not at all.

It only moves back and forth slowly. Not very "thrilling" if you ask me.

Well, I respectfully disagree with you, then. Most people regard it as a thrill ride, though.
 

General Grizz

New Member
Original Poster
Fievel said:
You're never happy - you always want more. You're not happy that they're adding a wonderful new attraction.

While I should be "grateful" Soarin's on its way (as I DID show my excitement to ride this attraction, and yes, even check into DCA to experience it - see first post and other threads), I was simply expressing my opinions (on this thread at least) of what may come as a result. In the past, I have posted great things about Soarin (check a search history, perhaps), but recent news about a retheming led me to this.

I can tell you you are incorrect about the "never happy" line First of all, this shouldn't be brought to a personal thing (as we are, after all, talking about a theme park attraction), and second of all, it seems you only happen to hear me when I'm suggesting alterations or the negative impact of things. If you want to hear my positive posts, again, please check out search history for my excitement about some of the great happenings going on at Walt Disney World.

Back to the intended theme of the thread, keep the debate going. :)
 

garyhoov

Trophy Husband
Here's something I'm curious about:

Was the ride designed specifically with the intention of including it at EPCOT? I would imagine that they had many many potential rides proposed for California Adventure and the imagineers proposing the Soarin' concept likely sold it with the idea that it could be built in California and Florida. That would help to spread and justify the development costs. If it was only going to go into California Adventure, it may have been too expensive and never gotten off the ground (awful pun).

I've never worked closely with amusement park engineers, but I have worked with motorcycle engineers, and I've seen how they planned out several different models from one platform. Before they ever invest in tooling for engines and frames, they plan out the models they will make over the next five years. It may look like a brand new model, but it was planned long ago.

Not sure if that's what happened in this case, but I wouldn't be surprised.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Soarin' was originally designed exclusively for California Adventure, but WDI does reuse technology between Resorts, of course, so it was assumed that, if successful, something similar could spread to another Resort. It was only when they discovered how unbelievably-successful Soarin' was that they decided to bring it to Epcot, and this was simply the easiest way for WDI to persuade the spending--"it's a direct clone, so it will be cheap and we can spend more money in a few years to modify it into a new ride, again". The purpose of showing the California film is to spread spending on this attraction over the course of a few years, which made it easier to get approved. The tie-in to Disney's Golden Celebration was kinda a last minute excuse for guests. Disney was not really cheap when it came to California Adventure. The expansion of the Disneyland Resort, completed in February of 2001, cost over $1,000,000,000, no small amount. Regardless, to answer your question, there is always a plan for expanding successful ride concepts to other Resorts, but Soarin' Over California was originally designed exclusively for California Adventure. That is to say, the ride system was designed for cloning, the ride was designed to be an original.
 

NemoRocks78

Seized
Premium Member
The_CEO said:
Nemo.. have you been on Soarin over Cali.....

I sure have been on it. Don't get me wrong, I love the ride (right now my favorite attraction at DCA...may change once I ride Tower) and am glad to see it coming to Epcot. I just don't think it is as "thrilling" as everyone says it is.
 

careship

New Member
IMHO, I would think that it would be more profitable for Disney Co. NOT to duplicate rides at other parks like that. I can see using the same theme, HM, PotC etc., but actually taking it from one park and adding it to another that's another story. Why do I say this? Where can you go to ride Mission:Space? You HAVE to go to Epcot to ride it. If you want to ride Soarin' (at the moment) you HAVE to go to DCA. Now if you make exclusive rides to each park that you can't see anywhere else, you have to go to that particular park. For those who are thrill seekers and Disney fanatics that have to ride them all etc, then you need to spend more and go to all the parks Florida and CA. I understand that most West Coasters don't go to Florida often and visa versa, but why is that? Is it the expense or is it because you can basically find the same things? I haven't it made it to DCA yet but that doesn't mean I'm not going to go. I have made it DL but it was awhile ago. Why? Because they had things WDW didn't. Why do I normally go to WDW, because there is so much MORE to do and I can drive there, albeit it takes 20 hours to get there.

Does any of this make sense? Do you get my point? I know...rambling again.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
careship said:
IMHO, I would think that it would be more profitable for Disney Co. NOT to duplicate rides at other parks like that. I can see using the same theme, HM, PotC etc., but actually taking it from one park and adding it to another that's another story. Why do I say this? Where can you go to ride Mission:Space? You HAVE to go to Epcot to ride it. If you want to ride Soarin' (at the moment) you HAVE to go to DCA. Now if you make exclusive rides to each park that you can't see anywhere else, you have to go to that particular park. For those who are thrill seekers and Disney fanatics that have to ride them all etc, then you need to spend more and go to all the parks Florida and CA. I understand that most West Coasters don't go to Florida often and visa versa, but why is that? Is it the expense or is it because you can basically find the same things? I haven't it made it to DCA yet but that doesn't mean I'm not going to go. I have made it DL but it was awhile ago. Why? Because they had things WDW didn't. Why do I normally go to WDW, because there is so much MORE to do and I can drive there, albeit it takes 20 hours to get there.

Does any of this make sense? Do you get my point? I know...rambling again.
I agree completely. There needs to be something unique to each of the parks to keep people vacationing to the different Resorts. That being said, since most people cannot afford to make frequent trips to both Resorts (one is usually much more expensive than the other--for me, it costs a fortune to fly to Disneyland), I can see why they clone successful rides--they are guaranteed to be successful wherever they go. Soarin', for example, is a guaranteed success at Epcot. It's a safe ride to clone and they save money with decreased research and development costs. That is why there just needs to be a balance between cloned rides and originals. Also, cloning something like Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show is 100% a-ok to me. Most wdw travelers have never been to Disneyland Paris (I haven't), so it will be new to 90% of guests, if not more.
 

careship

New Member
OK...I will say bringing the stunt show from overseas is a different case, IMHO, because going overseas isn't going to be my thing ever for Disney unless I win the lottery. However, when you have DL and WDW withing proximity for alot of North Americans, having just matching rides can defeat some purpose. I can remember when I was young the MK was overrun with tourists from overseas. I think that has lessened now that they have the parks there. Not quoting facts just opinions. I can't wait to ride Soarin' so don't get me wrong. I wish they would open it with a different movie, but being a gift from DL I can see the point. I guess I am a firm believer in supply and demand. (That wasn't the term I was looking for so bear with me.) If you can build things that are so amazing that people have that "gotta do that, see that, experience that" feeling, they'll go there. Economically, right now, I see the oddity in my own statement. It's just the idea I am trying to convey. Yes, I realize that sometimes means it has to be thrilling for the thrillseekers. However, can it also just not be the greatest Disneyesque ride to ever be Imagineered? I don't know. It's just a thought. I don't go to Disney for the thrills. I go there because I love Disney. Not just Mickey but I love what the vision and the company has stood for in the past. Does that make sense? I am sure I am in the minority. I am not thrill seeker, yet I'll ride them all.
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Well, if it helps the view of Soarin' as a thrill ride, it is the type of ride that I think Walt would have loved--it's inspired and great for the whole family. Walt wasn't against thrill rides that didn't alienate many people (e.g. Matterhorn Bobsleds, with its 35" height requirement). By the way, Soarin' has a 40" height requirement, same as Tower of Terror.
 

The_CEO

Well-Known Member
ISTCNavigator57 said:
I agree completely. There needs to be something unique to each of the parks to keep people vacationing to the different Resorts. That being said, since most people cannot afford to make frequent trips to both Resorts (one is usually much more expensive than the other--for me, it costs a fortune to fly to Disneyland), I can see why they clone successful rides--they are guaranteed to be successful wherever they go. Soarin', for example, is a guaranteed success at Epcot. It's a safe ride to clone and they save money with decreased research and development costs. That is why there just needs to be a balance between cloned rides and originals. Also, cloning something like Lights, Motors, Action! Extreme Stunt Show is 100% a-ok to me. Most wdw travelers have never been to Disneyland Paris (I haven't), so it will be new to 90% of guests, if not more.


I agree, but its when they take an idea.. ToT Orlando.. and change it to make it a tad diffrent to stand out, thats when things can go wrong. I'm glad they are keeping Soarin' the same, for now. That way people can grow to like it. One reason people believe ToT - DCA is real... Look at the color scheme! ITs so light and realistic looking. ToT -Orlando is gloomy..
 

ToTBellHop

Well-Known Member
Color in the theme parks is very purposeful--has to do with average temperature. Disneyland is typically cooler than Florida (even in August, when it's 90, it doesn't feel as hot due to the low humidity), so there are brighter colors in its parks, like the pink Sleeping Beauty Castle, to make guests feel warmer. Look at the very bright Paradise Pier, for example, or compare DCA's yellow Soarin' to our blue Soarin'. Florida, being so hot and muggy, uses a lot of cooler colors to make guests feel cooler, such as a blue Cinderella Castle or a dark Tower of Terror, the the icey Spaceship Earth. You can take it further to Disneyland Paris, where it snows in the winter, which has very bright colors.

That being said, I wish DCA's Tower of Terror looked older, not necessarily duller. Bright yellow paint and purple scortch marks suit the Disneyland Resort, it just looks a bit too animated...behind the Animation building...
 

HauntedPirate

Park nostalgist
Premium Member
You have my support.

My family and I love the pavilion. It's just so refreshing to go into. I had never thought about how peaceful it was until it was brought up. It really is, isn't it? Removal of 'Food Rocks' I can live with. Removal of the Food Fair, I cannot. Soaring over the land doesn't really seem to fit with the theme of the pavilion, which is living with the land.

Being the pessimist I have become about the current Disney way of doing things, I am not hopeful that the pavilion will be untouched, or as untouched as it can be with a new attraction being installed. I sincerely hope I am wrong.
 

Brian_B

Member
For some reason, out of everything Disney has ever done, Epcot Center has definitely affected me the most.

Which is weird, when you think about it; for most, the de facto disney experience is classic Americana; getting an ice cream on main street, the wonder of seeing storybook characters brought to life in fantasy land with that wonderful disney twist, or the occasional only-in-WDW high-quality thrill of the "mountains".

For me, the essence of WDW was Epcot, which at the time offered a different flavor of americana; progress and a look at the future. For some reason, I connected with Epcot in a special way. I think it has to do with Epcot Center's biggest advent, which was the unprecidented amount of interconnectedness. Name one place on earth that has achieved the level of sophisticated interconnectedness Epcot Center once upheld. I'm of the belief that such parallel connectivity appeals to us all on a very basic level. Undeniably, there is something inherently appealing about many components of a whole which are similarly formatted but unique in their own way; take Ghostbusters for example (bear with me on this one) - each team member wears the same uniform and backpack, yet the name on the uniform tag is different, and each brings to the team their individuality. It was the same at Epcot Center. The Universe of Energy dealt with fossil fuels. Fossil Fuels powered the cars at World of Motion, which we drive in towns and cities that may one day look like the ones depicted in Horizon's environments. In Horizons, we catch glimpses of an undersea city that echos Sea Base Alpha of the Living Seas, and food dispensers and irrigation systems that mirror those found at The Land. All 3 pavilions of future world West had the same, fantastic appearance; murals and decorations in the land and Journey into imagination evoked the same feeling as that found in It's a Small World, and approached looking at the future from more of a light hearted point of view.
The most important thing, however, is that as a young child (starting at age 3 and onward), I actually was AWARE of these parallels. Maybe not enough to express them verbally as such, but I could tell that everything was related, and not accidentally either.

Grizz mentioned serenity - that was my favorite aspect of the place. Unlike M:S and TT, the pavilions of Epcot Center didn't demand anything of you like 6 flags rollercoasters did. There was no tense moments before the ride starts, no courage mustering, no fear. As a young child I was afraid of scary, fast rides and didn't want to have anything to do with them. At epcot, I was safe. Each ride held enough art and detail that I could ride them forever and not catch quite everything. Plus, I was obsessed with futuristic looking things, and of course epcot was the epitome of that design style.

A final word about the irony of the possibility of making SE a rollercoaster. When I was very young, I was petrified that when the cars turned backwards they'd drop fast. My parents reassured me that it was safe, and they were right...but if things keep going the way they are now, it's as though my worst WDW fears might come true one day yet.
..sad.

-Brian
 

dxwwf3

Well-Known Member
Brian_B said:
For some reason, out of everything Disney has ever done, Epcot Center has definitely affected me the most.

Which is weird, when you think about it; for most, the de facto disney experience is classic Americana; getting an ice cream on main street, the wonder of seeing storybook characters brought to life in fantasy land with that wonderful disney twist, or the occasional only-in-WDW high-quality thrill of the "mountains".

For me, the essence of WDW was Epcot, which at the time offered a different flavor of americana; progress and a look at the future. For some reason, I connected with Epcot in a special way. I think it has to do with Epcot Center's biggest advent, which was the unprecidented amount of interconnectedness. Name one place on earth that has achieved the level of sophisticated interconnectedness Epcot Center once upheld. I'm of the belief that such parallel connectivity appeals to us all on a very basic level. Undeniably, there is something inherently appealing about many components of a whole which are similarly formatted but unique in their own way; take Ghostbusters for example (bear with me on this one) - each team member wears the same uniform and backpack, yet the name on the uniform tag is different, and each brings to the team their individuality. It was the same at Epcot Center. The Universe of Energy dealt with fossil fuels. Fossil Fuels powered the cars at World of Motion, which we drive in towns and cities that may one day look like the ones depicted in Horizon's environments. In Horizons, we catch glimpses of an undersea city that echos Sea Base Alpha of the Living Seas, and food dispensers and irrigation systems that mirror those found at The Land. All 3 pavilions of future world West had the same, fantastic appearance; murals and decorations in the land and Journey into imagination evoked the same feeling as that found in It's a Small World, and approached looking at the future from more of a light hearted point of view.
The most important thing, however, is that as a young child (starting at age 3 and onward), I actually was AWARE of these parallels. Maybe not enough to express them verbally as such, but I could tell that everything was related, and not accidentally either.

Grizz mentioned serenity - that was my favorite aspect of the place. Unlike M:S and TT, the pavilions of Epcot Center didn't demand anything of you like 6 flags rollercoasters did. There was no tense moments before the ride starts, no courage mustering, no fear. As a young child I was afraid of scary, fast rides and didn't want to have anything to do with them. At epcot, I was safe. Each ride held enough art and detail that I could ride them forever and not catch quite everything. Plus, I was obsessed with futuristic looking things, and of course epcot was the epitome of that design style.

A final word about the irony of the possibility of making SE a rollercoaster. When I was very young, I was petrified that when the cars turned backwards they'd drop fast. My parents reassured me that it was safe, and they were right...but if things keep going the way they are now, it's as though my worst WDW fears might come true one day yet.
..sad.

-Brian

Great post. I always like Epcot the best as a child too. Now I would have to say I think MGM is the best park, but Epcot still holds a special place.

And that Ghostbuster reference was quite good. I never thought of it that way :lol:
 

Brian_B

Member
Thanks - it comes from the heart.

I also wanted to mention something about the pavilion logos, another way in which the place was interconnected. I just loved how each logo was encapsulated in a circle, and you could tell that they were related - components of a whole - even though they each graphically represented the theme of their pavilion. Brilliant, just brilliant. And how Spaceship Earth's Earth Station had those screens (which are actually still in the building to this day - they're in the raised portion of the ceiling, where the twisted wire mesh of the Global Neighborhood used to be - center of the room) that showed the logos and pavilion information...

Also, the music in each and every pavilion was fantastic. The living seas theme and Tomorrow's Child routinely bring tears to my eyes.

-Brian
 

General Grizz

New Member
Original Poster
I think, since the Global Neighborhood is down, the screens should be used again.

You brought up VERY good points, Brian. Logos should definitely be reinstated.

The general EPCOT logo, of course, has a set of rings - symbolic of each of the rings from the different pavilions.

So noble. Let's see them back for good for the 25th.

P.S. Looks like the only logos we have left exist at the Land, Living Seas, and Spaceship Earth.
 

General Grizz

New Member
Original Poster
And I remember reading through one of the posts that "normally the Land isn't that crowded." That's anything but true.

And I found this interesting: 5:45 PM on 5/31/04 "Living with the Land" had a 55 min wait, while M:S had a 40 minute wait. While this may not be totally representative, it certainly shows the popularity of the Land - and its success in still retaining a peaceful atmosphere!

Keep voting! This still proves to be an interesting debate. So far, over 77% of pollers find something that needs to be fixed when Soarin' opens.
 

Register on WDWMAGIC. This sidebar will go away, and you'll see fewer ads.

Back
Top Bottom