TEA Global Attendance Index is out

[Jrb1979]

First of all you don’t know that. Secondly why could it possibly matter?

I may not know that but at the same time those who swear by it don't know either.
It matters cause all these price increases keep pushing the demographic that the parks were built on out.

 

[Chi84]

I may not know that but at the same time those who swear by it don't know either.
It matters cause all these price increases keep pushing the demographic that the parks were built on out.

Yes but you’re talking about the demographic the parks were built on.

There’s a new demographic that isn’t being pushed out and seems to be okay with the price for higher quality entertainment.

These aren’t the people who are visiting local theme parks. They want Disney quality theme parks.

 

[LittleBuford]

Yes but you’re talking about the demographic the parks were built on.

There’s a new demographic that isn’t being pushed out and seems to be okay with the price for higher quality entertainment.

These aren’t the people who are visiting local theme parks. They want Disney quality theme parks.

I’d actually dispute the narrative that “ordinary” people can no longer go to Disney. The parks are full of people who seem perfectly “average” to me. Yes, it’s an expensive product, but the idea that Middle American families have been pushed out by luxury holidaymakers and childless Disney adults seems untenable to me based on the demographics of the parks as I’ve experienced them.

 

[Chi84]

I’d actually dispute the narrative that “ordinary” people can no longer go to Disney. The parks are full of people who seem perfectly “average” to me. Yes, it’s an expensive product, but the idea that Middle American families have been pushed out by luxury holidaymakers and childless Disney adults seems untenable to me based on the demographics of the parks as I’ve experienced them.

I didn't say ordinary people can no longer go to Disney. Just that they're willing to pay a higher price for quality entertainment.

 

[LittleBuford]

I didn't say ordinary people can no longer go to Disney. Just that they're willing to pay a higher price for quality entertainment.

Sorry, I was piggybacking on your response; I didn’t mean to imply that the position I was paraphrasing was yours.

 

[Mr. Sullivan]

Have either of you two been in a park?

Have you? To speak on here with such authority and like you’re so much smarter than everybody, what you predict and claim as reality never really seems to get reflected in final outcomes.

 

[Mr. Sullivan]

Of course they do; their survival as a company depends on it. Difficult as it is for some of you to believe, many guests who visit (and revisit) are satisfied.

This is kinda the long and short of these debates.

Most of us exist in a bubble of our own making. Most of what we see and hear in regard to the parks is coming from a fandom. Fandoms are entities that thrive off of complaint and negativity, and we all participate in it.

For some, the complaints and negativity are about the company, the parks, and leadership decisions. For others, it’s complaints and negativity about those other people’s complaints and negativity.

But outside of our bubble, in the real world, little if anything has really changed about the way your average person feels about the prospect of going to Disney, and little if anything has changed about how the average person who ends up going feels about the experience. It’s as varied as it always was. There was never a singular defining winner of a position to either of those questions.

We can point to how we feel personally as proof of whatever we want to prove, or point to whatever other people in the fandom say as proof of whatever we want to prove, but the reality is that none of us really has our ear the ground on the subject of whether or not most of the people clicking into a park enjoyed it.

Anyone who claims to see this with any degree of objectivity on either side of the discussion is delusional at best, a liar at worst. It simply isn’t possible for us. We are deep inside of an echo chamber. For goodness sake, we’re on a Disney Parks forum arguing about attendance. If that isn’t proof that we’re not exactly in the company of the average guest visiting Disney, I don’t know what is.

We can post as many articles about Disney’s price increases as we want, or comb through as many numbers as we want, but they will not reveal anything to us. They will simply confirm in our minds what we independently already decided to be true.

At the end of the day, whether attendance is up, down, or flat, Disney is operating 5 of the most visited theme parks in the US, and 8 in the world. That to me says something very clear: the vast majority of folks who’re interested in going to Disney or have gone to Disney are not sitting on social media or online to discuss it. The conversations we see in our spaces are not your average guest, and trying to extrapolate what they say outward to represent the voice of a majority is a fool’s errand.

The story is not in table service restaurant availability or in ride wait times. The story is in do people want to go, do they go, and how is it for them when they get there?

And that is a story that will NEVER be told to us, no matter how much any one of us wants to claim we’ve got it all figured out.

 

[Sir_Cliff]

I’d make a strong argument Epcot is a better park in 2024 than 2019 and DAK is the inverse. Beyond Epcots project cycle being a let down. DAK night show, park hours and FoP no longer being the top one (or even three) rope drop priorities is showing its hand.

I think attendance ultimately reflects recent investment, which is a good thing in some ways. Many of those parks *deserve* to have lowered attendance patterns based on their recency of investment.

Yes, without evaluating the quality or suitability of specific investments, in general it seems positive that the park that has received the most investment in the post-pandemic period has been the one that has seen the biggest bounce in attendance and is almost back to where it was pre-pandemic. From a park that very much seemed in decline, Epcot is again solidly in the #2 position at WDW in terms of attendance.

While there is some shuffling of visitors between the parks, I assume Disney likes to funnel guests toward Epcot as it is both so big as to be able to handle large numbers of guests easily and it is also so retail and dining forward. It would be interesting to know how per-guest spending differs between the parks to see if a visitor to Epcot tends to spend any more during their day than one at the other parks. It would surprise me if they did and if Animal Kingdom was at the opposite end of that list.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

Have you? To speak on here with such authority and like you’re so much smarter than everybody, what you predict and claim as reality never really seems to get reflected in final outcomes.

Want to take a tour together, big guy? But we may not be able to get it due to the “mobs” out front 20 Minutes after a park opens…

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

In a vacuum, sure. But park operators, including Disney, also value guest satisfaction and intent to return, which is harmed if guests have a poor experience due to crowding.

You want to read that again in a mirror and try to convince yourself a little bit harder?…
Then you can try it on the rest of us

Am I missing something? Attendance is increasing…

Still down 17% there, ace

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

From the report:

View attachment 889347

They're counting visits. If you have a ticket and enter a park. It is a visit. So, yes based on reasonable assumption a person that park hopped could be counted as a visit twice. Maybe three times. Depending on how many parks they visit.

The problem with these types of things is that they are very vague when definining how calculations are made and/or what data they use. Because they are purposely being vague. Disney, Uni, and others can review the numbers and provide them with things but they are under no obligation to do so. And as long as a park thinks the number represents them in manner they feel it should.

To be brutally frank, I could give a flying fox whether Disney parks have more, less, or exactly the same attendance. I'm still going to go several times a year. I'm still going to compain that it's a blatant money grab. I still won't see a working YETI. I'll still curse Disney for making me pre-plan down to the time I take bathroom and water breaks. And I'll still find a way to make it a fun experience.

I'm just saying. Numbers can tell a lot of different stories. It can reinforce narratives and it can destroy them. And in some cases that can be done at the same time.

…Disney never actually tells you their attendance. They’re not required too…so why would they?

They only say “strong” or “up” based on revenues and profits…which can be manipulated 1000 different ways

They’ll say it in about 15 days…if you want to place a prop bet like you’re an nba player starting tonight

…Disney fans are always convinced that “the company” can’t lie to them…I’ll never get that - it was never true and never gonna be on this planet - but whatever helps them to sleep at night I guess?

But here’s what you can take to the bank:
1. They make a lot of money off parks
2. The goal is to make the most they can
3: don’t believe nonsense binkies and blankets about “guest satisfaction” as long as it doesn’t hurt the bottomline

…now book your next trip

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

This is kinda the long and short of these debates.

Most of us exist in a bubble of our own making. Most of what we see and hear in regard to the parks is coming from a fandom. Fandoms are entities that thrive off of complaint and negativity, and we all participate in it.

For some, the complaints and negativity are about the company, the parks, and leadership decisions. For others, it’s complaints and negativity about those other people’s complaints and negativity.

But outside of our bubble, in the real world, little if anything has really changed about the way your average person feels about the prospect of going to Disney, and little if anything has changed about how the average person who ends up going feels about the experience. It’s as varied as it always was. There was never a singular defining winner of a position to either of those questions.

We can point to how we feel personally as proof of whatever we want to prove, or point to whatever other people in the fandom say as proof of whatever we want to prove, but the reality is that none of us really has our ear the ground on the subject of whether or not most of the people clicking into a park enjoyed it.

Anyone who claims to see this with any degree of objectivity on either side of the discussion is delusional at best, a liar at worst. It simply isn’t possible for us. We are deep inside of an echo chamber. For goodness sake, we’re on a Disney Parks forum arguing about attendance. If that isn’t proof that we’re not exactly in the company of the average guest visiting Disney, I don’t know what is.

We can post as many articles about Disney’s price increases as we want, or comb through as many numbers as we want, but they will not reveal anything to us. They will simply confirm in our minds what we independently already decided to be true.

At the end of the day, whether attendance is up, down, or flat, Disney is operating 5 of the most visited theme parks in the US, and 8 in the world. That to me says something very clear: the vast majority of folks who’re interested in going to Disney or have gone to Disney are not sitting on social media or online to discuss it. The conversations we see in our spaces are not your average guest, and trying to extrapolate what they say outward to represent the voice of a majority is a fool’s errand.

The story is not in table service restaurant availability or in ride wait times. The story is in do people want to go, do they go, and how is it for them when they get there?

And that is a story that will NEVER be told to us, no matter how much any one of us wants to claim we’ve got it all figured out.

The appeal and perception…and changes to each…are 100% due to the actions or inactions of the Walt Disney company…

They own what they make and what they’re criticized for…let the market dictate. And it has…as a matter of fact

It’s not an election that can be splained away with “it’s always the same…no matter what”

Use the “05” rule…look at how everything was constructed, run and received in every decades since 1955 to gauge how their parks are being run…it holds and leads to the health of all of Disney…as a matter of fact

 

[DisneyHead123]

But outside of our bubble, in the real world, little if anything has really changed about the way your average person feels about the prospect of going to Disney, and little if anything has changed about how the average person who ends up going feels about the experience. It’s as varied as it always was. There was never a singular defining winner of a position to either of those questions.

This is 100% anecdotal, but what I have seen among families is a shift into either “all in” or “not particularly interested”. I would liken it a bit to the way extracurriculars have morphed from casual activities into things like travel sports and dance (and others, like travel robotics for the athletically un-inclined, may be on the way).

Again, anecdotal, but what I see is families either: 1. Don’t go, or they go once and say “Great googly moogly that was expensive” and never go again, or 2. It becomes a lifestyle of sorts. (I’m in the second camp, obviously.) What seems to be disappearing is the casual consumer of Disney travel.

 

["El Gran Magnifico"]

don’t believe nonsense binkies and blankets about “guest satisfaction” as long as it doesn’t hurt the bottomline

To me. I think Disney’s focus has shifted from “Did we exceed your expectations?” To “Did we meet your expectations?” Subtle but significant.

And before the pixie dusters start opening their pixie canisters - my expectations are usually met because I have adjusted my expectation level. And I can still find a way to have fun. And yes, I still think it’s a money grab.

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To me. I think Disney’s focus has shifted from “Did we exceed your expectations?” To “Did we meet your expectations?” Subtle but significant.

And before the pixie dusters start opening their pixie canisters - my expectations are usually met because I have adjusted my expectation level. And I can still find a way to have fun. And yes, I still think it’s a money grab.

You may be right…

The corporate culture is pretty bad and the dogma now does not really apply to people in parks…it’s more grandiose about “directions” and “movement”…kinda like as if somebody really loves Wall Street tactics?

Can’t be that…but the concern over whether you and I had a great time last week and are gonna tell our neighbors or other parents at a basketball game about it is no longer there.

Some of that is technology change…a lot of it is the choices made with management hubris driving the ship

 

[Sirwalterraleigh]

To me. I think Disney’s focus has shifted from “Did we exceed your expectations?” To “Did we meet your expectations?” Subtle but significant.

And before the pixie dusters start opening their pixie canisters - my expectations are usually met because I have adjusted my expectation level. And I can still find a way to have fun. And yes, I still think it’s a money grab.

You may be right…

The corporate culture is pretty bad and the dogma now does not really apply to people in parks…it’s more grandiose about “directions” and “movement”…kinda like as if somebody really loves Wall Street tactics?

Can’t be that…but the concern over whether you and I had a great time last week and are gonna tell our neighbors or other parents at a basketball game about it is no longer there.

Some of that is technology change…a lot of it is the choices made with management hubris driving the

 

[JD80]

I don't believe for a second they care about guest satisfaction one bit. I fully the reason they keep raising prices is to make up for revenue they lose from lower crowds.

Im like you in that I don't care if they fail or succeed. I have accepted that Disney will never be what once was.

I'm sure there are plenty of executive KPIs based on GSAT scores.

 

[Stripes]

Still down 17% there, ace

All going to plan, buddy! What about hotel room occupancy?

You want to read that again in a mirror and try to convince yourself a little bit harder?…
Then you can try it on the rest of us

If that’s your best material, you might want to do some rehearsing as well!

 

[JD80]

I’d actually dispute the narrative that “ordinary” people can no longer go to Disney. The parks are full of people who seem perfectly “average” to me. Yes, it’s an expensive product, but the idea that Middle American families have been pushed out by luxury holidaymakers and childless Disney adults seems untenable to me based on the demographics of the parks as I’ve experienced them.

There are less people going, about 9 million since 2019 peak. No way to conclusively say it's families of lower income brackets. First you'd have to break out how many more or less international guests are coming first. Then look at the rest.

 

[JD80]

All going to plan, buddy! What about hotel room occupancy?

If that’s your best material, you might want to do some rehearsing as well!

Disney doesn't cares about attendance numbers by themselves. They care about profitability.

Less people, less operational costs. If they wanted to goose attendance numbers, they'd reduce ticket costs whether the regular ticket, ticket packages, or through ticket discount deals.

Everyone mocking Disney about less attendance since 2019 doesn't get it. Disney is laughing to the bank because tehy are making more money than ever across parks and cruises.