manmythlegend
Well-Known Member
Honestly, Sarah should have let Tony play his idol for her during the last tribal. That was a bit of a brain fart.
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Survivor S40: Winners at War
- Thread starter PUSH
- Start date
Honestly, Sarah should have let Tony play his idol for her during the last tribal. That was a bit of a brain fart.
One of the best Tribal Councils ever. And guess what... nobody got up! There was no whispering! Okay, there was a little bit of whispering, but it wasn't out of control! Everyone had to say what they wanted out loud for everyone else to hear. And because of that, it resulted in a phenomenally entertaining Tribal Council.
Despite Jeremy getting voted out, I really enjoyed that episode. Mainly due to the Michele arc. She really has that underdog story that could get some votes if she makes it to the end. But the problem with 2 hour episodes is, I forget a lot of the stuff that happened. So I'm sure my thoughts have some gaps tonight.
- I'll start with Michele's story arc this season. She has been the underdog the whole way. Really, her story started when she won Kaoh Rong. That story has been built upon all season long, and it reached a climax tonight. To go from being on the wrong side of the numbers with Parvati, to being in a fighting match with Wendell, to not being in on any vote. Then to have her successfully save herself on a coin flip, that was great. She would have gone home on the revote. Her dance was hilarious, and it's why I love Michele. That fighting spirit and that energy. Then to have everyone be content with no strategizing because they realize she'll be voted out. So Nick plays his advantage against Ben, after telling it to Michele. He could have used it against Michele. But instead, he aligns with her, only to be voted out due to his own advantage play. She started this episode in tears over her performance in the first challenge, only to rise to the occasion and win when she needed it most. It mirrors her game in Kaoh Rong a little bit. She won some key challenges at the end when her name was on the chopping block. I just loved her whole story tonight. A fantastic job by the producers and editors for telling it in such a brilliant way.
- Does nobody realize that Tony and Sarah are running the game? They must have amazing social relationships and social games. It just goes to show how amazing they are at this game. Like them or not, they are two of the greats. To make those moves and be in such control, and not even having their names seriously considered? Wow.
- Ben has not played a good game. He has talked about how he's one of the big threats who needs shields. In reality, he is the goat being dragged to the end.
- Denise's strategy after the second challenge was ultimately successful, but I don't think it will sit well in the jury's eyes. If they have to question if it's strategy, it will be hard to convince them for sure that it was. So while the move worked out for her, I think it may be perceived as she was saved.
- Natalie had 14 tokens?! Granted, she earned them, but it's a reason I don't like the EoE. The players who have been there longer have a better chance at getting back in the game. And yes, I know Natalie had 0 tokens after the first returning challenge, but she has still been there longer than many of the others. Jeremy and Nick were just voted out. They made it very deep into the game. And they have less of a chance to get back in. And even if they do, they have less of a chance to get jury votes than if Natalie gets back in because they haven't spent the whole game with them. I get that EoE is part of the game, and you play with the cards you're dealt. It's totally right of the players to use the game as it's laid out for them. But it's a very flawed concept on the production side of things.
- My ranking for who I would vote for if they got to the end, considering only those currently in the game:
1. Tony
2. Sarah
3. Michele
4. Denise
5. Ben
- Who I would want to win:
1. Michele
2. Tony
3. Denise
4. Sarah
5. Ben
- At this point I'm all in on Michele.
- I'll start with Michele's story arc this season. She has been the underdog the whole way. Really, her story started when she won Kaoh Rong. That story has been built upon all season long, and it reached a climax tonight. To go from being on the wrong side of the numbers with Parvati, to being in a fighting match with Wendell, to not being in on any vote. Then to have her successfully save herself on a coin flip, that was great. She would have gone home on the revote. Her dance was hilarious, and it's why I love Michele. That fighting spirit and that energy. Then to have everyone be content with no strategizing because they realize she'll be voted out. So Nick plays his advantage against Ben, after telling it to Michele. He could have used it against Michele. But instead, he aligns with her, only to be voted out due to his own advantage play. She started this episode in tears over her performance in the first challenge, only to rise to the occasion and win when she needed it most. It mirrors her game in Kaoh Rong a little bit. She won some key challenges at the end when her name was on the chopping block. I just loved her whole story tonight. A fantastic job by the producers and editors for telling it in such a brilliant way.
- Does nobody realize that Tony and Sarah are running the game? They must have amazing social relationships and social games. It just goes to show how amazing they are at this game. Like them or not, they are two of the greats. To make those moves and be in such control, and not even having their names seriously considered? Wow.
- Ben has not played a good game. He has talked about how he's one of the big threats who needs shields. In reality, he is the goat being dragged to the end.
- Denise's strategy after the second challenge was ultimately successful, but I don't think it will sit well in the jury's eyes. If they have to question if it's strategy, it will be hard to convince them for sure that it was. So while the move worked out for her, I think it may be perceived as she was saved.
- Natalie had 14 tokens?! Granted, she earned them, but it's a reason I don't like the EoE. The players who have been there longer have a better chance at getting back in the game. And yes, I know Natalie had 0 tokens after the first returning challenge, but she has still been there longer than many of the others. Jeremy and Nick were just voted out. They made it very deep into the game. And they have less of a chance to get back in. And even if they do, they have less of a chance to get jury votes than if Natalie gets back in because they haven't spent the whole game with them. I get that EoE is part of the game, and you play with the cards you're dealt. It's totally right of the players to use the game as it's laid out for them. But it's a very flawed concept on the production side of things.
- My ranking for who I would vote for if they got to the end, considering only those currently in the game:
1. Tony
2. Sarah
3. Michele
4. Denise
5. Ben
- Who I would want to win:
1. Michele
2. Tony
3. Denise
4. Sarah
5. Ben
- At this point I'm all in on Michele.
manmythlegend
Well-Known Member
It's starting to seem as if Tony has this in the bag.
Wendy Pleakley
Well-Known Member
Yeah, Edge is really flawed.
The fire tokens came into play a couple of times, but we didn't see much of them. They felt like a non-factor among the players not on Edge. I think they'll be more interesting in an Edge free season where they are used by, for, and against the players still in the game.
Michele has been enjoyable to watch. Her only chance seems to be to win the next immunity and work with the returnee.
Nick was a disaster in so many ways tonight.
I don't know who the best choice would have been to play that disadvantage. In hindsight, Nick should have taken out Michele. I thought they might go for Sarah, and they could have tried to then convince her that someone was gunning for her.
I think Tony was smart to stick with the Nick vote. Had he voted out Ben or Denise I can see it being everyone vs. him and Sarah in the next vote. It just wouldn't make sense to go from a four person alliance to a three person alliance, at this stage in the game.
The finale is seven days from now, which means we don't get another episode for two weeks.
Anyone think we'll get another season airing this year? With so many TV shows likely to be delayed next season, I think they might look to Survivor as something that can be filmed in 39 days and put on the air quickly. Maybe they can assemble a cast in August, quarantine them in Fiji for 14 days, and then film in September.
I don't think we will get a season the the fall. Maybe the spring. It also depends on Fiji and any travel restrictions they may have. The issue isn't the cast, it's the crews that come from all over the world.
NYwdwfan
Well-Known Member
It was cool of Natalie to buy Tyson the idol but did he have any fire tokens to get an advantage as well? Idol is useless if you don’t get back in. But was it a strategic move to buy him the idol (and presumably his vote) then not have him as such a threat in the challenge?
Wendy Pleakley
Well-Known Member
True enough. Maybe they can do a zoom season like the Parks & Rec special. Actually, if they did a returnees season and just armed them all with cell phones to film it, that would be an interesting experiment.
Wendy Pleakley
Well-Known Member
Michele seems like the underdog now, but could be in a good position for several reasons.
She will likely team up with whomever comes back from Edge, and that person could have an idol. If Michele can win immunity, they split up the four and might have room to maneuver.
The edit has given her the story of validating her original win, which bodes well for how her story could play out.
She hasn't been responsible for voting most of the jury out. In a game of emotions, that's always a huge advantage. How many players have lost because the most recent bootees haven't had time to get rid of their bitterness? Less likely in a winners season perhaps, but could be a factor.
I'm not sure Michele would be a satisfying winner. The fact is, she's smart but hasn't had any control in the game. What does a Michele win look like? Tony (obvious top player) gets eliminated and then she wins because the jury isn't mad at her, because she wasn't the one who ended their game?
She will likely team up with whomever comes back from Edge, and that person could have an idol. If Michele can win immunity, they split up the four and might have room to maneuver.
The edit has given her the story of validating her original win, which bodes well for how her story could play out.
She hasn't been responsible for voting most of the jury out. In a game of emotions, that's always a huge advantage. How many players have lost because the most recent bootees haven't had time to get rid of their bitterness? Less likely in a winners season perhaps, but could be a factor.
I'm not sure Michele would be a satisfying winner. The fact is, she's smart but hasn't had any control in the game. What does a Michele win look like? Tony (obvious top player) gets eliminated and then she wins because the jury isn't mad at her, because she wasn't the one who ended their game?
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I think Michele would win due to her underdog story. I don't think she would be a goat. A goat is someone who has no control in the game, and does not try to take control. Like Laurel from 36. Michele has been trying to make moves all season long. She's been a part of lots of strategic conversations. A goat is someone who is told what to do and blindly follows it.
artvandelay
Well-Known Member
We could be heading for another Advantagegeddon at the final 5. If Natalie, Rob or Tyson come back from EoE and make it through the final 6 vote, at 5 you’ll have idols with Tony, Ben, and EoE returnee. Then you have the challenge winner immune (if Tony wins immunity he gives his idol to Sarah, if Ben wins he gives his to Denise, etc) and there is going to be only one person who can go home.
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I totally will stand in support of Michele that she has certainly validated herself as a strong and entertaining player. She is very deserving of how far she has gotten in the game and I think she has justified that she deserves to have won her season. I don't think she's remotely made a case that she deserves to win this season though.
Being entertaining and likeable to the viewer isn't a game winner.
She's certainly played, but you can't be on the wrong side of almost every single vote and win. Something is not coming out in the edit - there's been too many votes she's been left out for no good reason that maybe she isn't really connecting with the whole.
I'd say the same about Parvarti if she were in her shoes right now. Whoever wins should have played a winning game in all aspects.
Tony, Denise - for a time Sarah. Now if Michele actually is finally able to enact a strategic plan and is instrumental in Tony +/- Sarah ousters. Yes I'd be all in.
I'm not sure how I'd feel about Tyson or Natalie winning - If they can make it to the final 3 on strategy and not solely on challenge wins I think there is more of a case. I like Tyson, but a double evictee on the season winning? Meh.
But again this final come-back challenge is toooo late!
BrianLo
Well-Known Member
I do support ongoing fire tokens for immunity wins. In some ways I think it helps prop back up the Immunity challenges' value. Right now I'd actually say finding a hidden immunity idol is more valuable than publicly winning individual immunity. That doesn't feel particularly right.
In future season advantages could still be hidden, but perhaps cannot be played unless the player is able to pony up the price. The only interesting facet lost is the extortion or targeted prices set by players on Extinction.
Something meaningful should exist on the public menu though. Perhaps like a 10-token idol nullifier. Something that sort of looms over everyone's head until a huge collective all gets together to purchase it. Or a later game immunity challenge is actually the classic survivor auction.
I'm curious to see how it will be tweaked, because Jeff has been pretty into it moving forward. I do think it will be even better after some tweaking and the less player-targeted nature driven by EoE.
In future season advantages could still be hidden, but perhaps cannot be played unless the player is able to pony up the price. The only interesting facet lost is the extortion or targeted prices set by players on Extinction.
Something meaningful should exist on the public menu though. Perhaps like a 10-token idol nullifier. Something that sort of looms over everyone's head until a huge collective all gets together to purchase it. Or a later game immunity challenge is actually the classic survivor auction.
I'm curious to see how it will be tweaked, because Jeff has been pretty into it moving forward. I do think it will be even better after some tweaking and the less player-targeted nature driven by EoE.
artvandelay
Well-Known Member
I like the idea of the expensive idol nullifier! If someone did buy it, they should update the menu with a big X through it. That way the players know someone has the nullifier and if you have an immunity idol, you’d be very careful sharing that info.
This is just a brainstorm, and may be a terrible idea. But maybe do two separate menus for pre-merge and post-merge. Each menu has advantages on it to buy, but they get pricier as the season continues. Only one of each advantage can be bought, but they have an expiration date that you won't know until you buy it. If it has already been purchased, you lose one fire token, but you would have information that it is in the game. That would make it a risk/reward type of deal.
I just wonder if that would make it easier for the players on top to stay on top. The ones who have more connections and allies, such as Tony, a better shot to pool tokens together to avoid having someone like Michele purchase an advantage.
I just wonder if that would make it easier for the players on top to stay on top. The ones who have more connections and allies, such as Tony, a better shot to pool tokens together to avoid having someone like Michele purchase an advantage.
flynnibus
Premium Member
Conversely - it's been much harder for Natalie to get to the point to have the ability to get back into the game... where Jeremy and Nick have had to do almost nothing and are given the same shot.
Overall I've found the tokens very much under utilized. What did players in the game really get to do with their tokens? They were largely at the mercy of choices of people on EoE. They could have pretty much had the same EoE->Game impacts w/o the tokens at all.
I doubt we'll see them next season...
I know a lot could change, especially with production being delayed for an extended period of time, but before the season I believe they said fire tokens were here to stay.
Wendy Pleakley
Well-Known Member
I'm okay with Fire Tokens at the moment, but that's largely due to the fact they've made for some interesting moments, but not game breaking ones. Had that disadvantage that targeted Tony, and only Tony, resulted in him getting voted out, I imagine I'd feel differently.
I imagine they're timing it so the returning player stands a chance at making it to the end, but the timing is really off.
The final six could have been an interesting vote. That's the perfect time to take out a big threat like Tony, or have Tony turn on Denise, because you still have a 3-2 advantage to work with.
Since the returnee is almost certainly going to work with Nick and Michele, there's no reason for the majority to put themselves in a potential 3-3 scenario, so we got a vote out that was pretty inevitable.
I imagine they're timing it so the returning player stands a chance at making it to the end, but the timing is really off.
The final six could have been an interesting vote. That's the perfect time to take out a big threat like Tony, or have Tony turn on Denise, because you still have a 3-2 advantage to work with.
Since the returnee is almost certainly going to work with Nick and Michele, there's no reason for the majority to put themselves in a potential 3-3 scenario, so we got a vote out that was pretty inevitable.
artvandelay
Well-Known Member
Jeff has said that they liked to have the theme of the show be a part of the finale and that’s why the battle back happens when five are left.
I agree with you. It’s too late in the game.