Survivor S40: Winners at War

manmythlegend

Well-Known Member
russell lost because his jury couldn't face they got PLAYED and when he told them how he did it, they all just got butt hurt.

I really don't have any respect for people who need to be coddled or kissed up to for them to accept something. They literally couldn't get over being deceived and beaten. It wasn't as much as Russell being nasty.. it was they couldn't accept he beat them. I lost a lot of respect for the show after that.. and frankly it hasn't recovered much. It's too much about brown nosing vs deserving to win.

I get you gotta play along and do things like that to get THROUGH the game - but you shouldn't need that at the finale. If you do, it's because the jury can't be objective... and it defeats the entire purpose of the label JURY.

I also don't like the fact they took basically everyone to jury for this season. Final tribal is gonna suck.

Dude I love Russell, I'm his biggest fan but I'll give you an example of his nasty side. Do you remember the lady with the mullet? I think her name was Shambo or something like that. Russell was criticizing her physical appearance, not to her directly, but with the Survivor camera crew. Now she still voted for him miraculously but that's the kind of crap that just isn't necessary.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Dude I love Russell, I'm his biggest fan but I'll give you an example of his nasty side. Do you remember the lady with the mullet? I think her name was Shambo or something like that. Russell was criticizing her physical appearance, not to her directly, but with the Survivor camera crew. Now she still voted for him miraculously but that's the kind of crap that just isn't necessary.

Its “survivor” not Miss America...
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Its “survivor” not Miss America...
There's a difference between strategic gameplay and being unpleasant to be around. Nobody is going to award someone who made life miserable for everyone else. Calling every young girl a dumb blonde is not a good way to expect jury votes in the end. He often went beyond criticizing gameplay and attacked their appearances or their personalities. Don't get me wrong, I totally thought Russell deserved to win Samoa, especially when I first saw it, but as I've watched and analyzed more and more of the show, I 100% understand why people would not award him the money. I think it would be very hard for any human to award the money to someone who personally insulted you day after day - not insulted your game, but you as a person.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
There's a difference between strategic gameplay and being unpleasant to be around. Nobody is going to award someone who made life miserable for everyone else. Calling every young girl a dumb blonde is not a good way to expect jury votes in the end. He often went beyond criticizing gameplay and attacked their appearances or their personalities. Don't get me wrong, I totally thought Russell deserved to win Samoa, especially when I first saw it, but as I've watched and analyzed more and more of the show, I 100% understand why people would not award him the money. I think it would be very hard for any human to award the money to someone who personally insulted you day after day - not insulted your game, but you as a person.

If you hate someone... and can't acknowledge their win at the end... then I still think it's on that person to failing to separate their personal feelings from the game.
 

manmythlegend

Well-Known Member
If you hate someone... and can't acknowledge their win at the end... then I still think it's on that person to failing to separate their personal feelings from the game.

Part of the game is convincing people you had a hand in voting out to vote for you to win. This is the final piece of the puzzle. So, as you're playing, you need to keep this in mind. Call this the "social" element if you will. Russell failed here.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Part of the game is convincing people you had a hand in voting out to vote for you to win. This is the final piece of the puzzle. So, as you're playing, you need to keep this in mind. Call this the "social" element if you will. Russell failed here.

The entire discussion is about people deciding their votes for 'the wrong reasons'...
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
If you hate someone... and can't acknowledge their win at the end... then I still think it's on that person to failing to separate their personal feelings from the game.
I generally agree with you on this, as I think most Survivor fans do. But I think Russell's case is different. He went out of his way to be mean and bully others - he still does it to this day on Twitter. His actions had nothing to do with the game; it was personal. If he treats others like that on a personal level, I think it's totally fair for the jury to treat him like that on a personal level when they get to the final Tribal Council. Jeff has always said Tribal Council is where players account for their actions. And if this had only happened in Samoa, that's one thing. But it happened twice, in back to back seasons, when the HvV cast hadn't even seen his first season. They came up with their own opinions on him. I think that shows a lot, and I can't argue with the HvV jury, because those same people voting have shown in the past to not vote based on personal feelings.

I think it's unfair for fans to judge a jury for the choices they made. We weren't there. We saw 42 minutes of a 72 hour chunk, and most of that is challenges and Tribal Council.

Ultimately, we will have to agree to disagree, and as a viewer I believe Russell should have won Samoa. But I also understand my opinion is formed by only partial information, whereas the jury's was formed by much, much more information.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
I generally agree with you on this, as I think most Survivor fans do. But I think Russell's case is different. He went out of his way to be mean and bully others - he still does it to this day on Twitter. His actions had nothing to do with the game; it was personal. If he treats others like that on a personal level, I think it's totally fair for the jury to treat him like that on a personal level when they get to the final Tribal Council. Jeff has always said Tribal Council is where players account for their actions. And if this had only happened in Samoa, that's one thing. But it happened twice, in back to back seasons, when the HvV cast hadn't even seen his first season. They came up with their own opinions on him. I think that shows a lot, and I can't argue with the HvV jury, because those same people voting have shown in the past to not vote based on personal feelings.

I think it's unfair for fans to judge a jury for the choices they made. We weren't there. We saw 42 minutes of a 72 hour chunk, and most of that is challenges and Tribal Council.

Ultimately, we will have to agree to disagree, and as a viewer I believe Russell should have won Samoa. But I also understand my opinion is formed by only partial information, whereas the jury's was formed by much, much more information.

I think Russell is just the loudest example of the problem.

I think survivor as the game itself is on the downward slide.

Outwit? Let's make sure there are 3-4 curves in play that totally trump even the best 'outwit' play
Outlast? Survival is not much of a threat at all anymore... except 'being hungry' and being cold. Of course avoiding injuries is still #1
Outplay? The discussion we are having here about final votes... It's not about play.. It's more about kissing tail these days.

Worn out tropes like "you were a threat..." dominate the reasoning... it's almost politically incorrect now to simply say "I wanted the final three to be my best chance of winning..."

And I think the changes to final tribal these days completely erode the ability for the finalists to layout a justification on why they should win.. instead it's all about letting a few vocal people drive the whole discussion on whatever they really care about.

I really didn't like the 'close nit groups' that went all the way through with numbers we saw in earlier seasons... there needed to be more turnover or conflict... the swaps help with that.. but the number of gimmicks is way too high now. Instead they should be forcing more situations (IMO) where the people have to think on their feet and adapt quickly to a situation they weren't expecting.
 

manmythlegend

Well-Known Member
The entire discussion is about people deciding their votes for 'the wrong reasons'...

You have to get over this "wrong" reason stuff. There is no wrong reason and we don't get to decide what criteria the jury members must use to cast their vote. They can vote for any of the remaining players for whatever dang reason they want. They can ask players to pick a number between 1-100 and whomever guesses close gets the vote which was done several times in earlier seasons.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
You have to get over this "wrong" reason stuff. There is no wrong reason and we don't get to decide what criteria the jury members must use to cast their vote. They can vote for any of the remaining players for whatever dang reason they want. They can ask players to pick a number between 1-100 and whomever guesses close gets the vote which was done several times in earlier seasons.

while technically accurate- it doesn't make good tv. Which is what leads us back to the point of the discussion... horrible jury votingReasons and criteria
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I think Russell is just the loudest example of the problem.

I think survivor as the game itself is on the downward slide.

Outwit? Let's make sure there are 3-4 curves in play that totally trump even the best 'outwit' play
Outlast? Survival is not much of a threat at all anymore... except 'being hungry' and being cold. Of course avoiding injuries is still #1
Outplay? The discussion we are having here about final votes... It's not about play.. It's more about kissing tail these days.

Worn out tropes like "you were a threat..." dominate the reasoning... it's almost politically incorrect now to simply say "I wanted the final three to be my best chance of winning..."

And I think the changes to final tribal these days completely erode the ability for the finalists to layout a justification on why they should win.. instead it's all about letting a few vocal people drive the whole discussion on whatever they really care about.

I really didn't like the 'close nit groups' that went all the way through with numbers we saw in earlier seasons... there needed to be more turnover or conflict... the swaps help with that.. but the number of gimmicks is way too high now. Instead they should be forcing more situations (IMO) where the people have to think on their feet and adapt quickly to a situation they weren't expecting.
I agree with this. Survivor has gotten far too gimmicky. I rarely think the best player wins anymore. Not that it always happened in the past, but even less so now. I think Survivor is really leaning towards favoring men who can find idols. It's getting harder and harder for women to win. And it's getting harder and harder for solid social and strategic gameplay to win. As we've seen with Chris and Ben, it's all about who gets lucky and finds advantages.
 

flynnibus

Premium Member
Id like to see stuff like a competition.. that lead to an immediate unexpected tribal...

Or more isolation stuff... or even the team rewards in the merged part of the game often mixes things up
 

manmythlegend

Well-Known Member
I agree with this. Survivor has gotten far too gimmicky. I rarely think the best player wins anymore. Not that it always happened in the past, but even less so now. I think Survivor is really leaning towards favoring men who can find idols. It's getting harder and harder for women to win. And it's getting harder and harder for solid social and strategic gameplay to win. As we've seen with Chris and Ben, it's all about who gets lucky and finds advantages.

I bet a woman wins this season
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
Id like to see stuff like a competition.. that lead to an immediate unexpected tribal...

Or more isolation stuff... or even the team rewards in the merged part of the game often mixes things up
I would like them to bring back reward challenges that shake up the social dynamics. Like when they had to answer questions about people.
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I bet a woman wins this season
I would bet that, too, but I thought a woman was going to win last season, too, and you see how that worked out. But I still feel like advantages tend to be found by men, and the fire making challenge favors men, too. It's already hard enough for women to play the same way a man does and get respect, and now there are more barriers. Moms have it even harder, see Carolyn and Chrissy for that. Strong games, but not as much respect as the men who got there, too.
 

artvandelay

Well-Known Member
I think Russell is just the loudest example of the problem.

I think survivor as the game itself is on the downward slide.

Outwit? Let's make sure there are 3-4 curves in play that totally trump even the best 'outwit' play
Outlast? Survival is not much of a threat at all anymore... except 'being hungry' and being cold. Of course avoiding injuries is still #1
Outplay? The discussion we are having here about final votes... It's not about play.. It's more about kissing tail these days.

Worn out tropes like "you were a threat..." dominate the reasoning... it's almost politically incorrect now to simply say "I wanted the final three to be my best chance of winning..."

And I think the changes to final tribal these days completely erode the ability for the finalists to layout a justification on why they should win.. instead it's all about letting a few vocal people drive the whole discussion on whatever they really care about.

I really didn't like the 'close nit groups' that went all the way through with numbers we saw in earlier seasons... there needed to be more turnover or conflict... the swaps help with that.. but the number of gimmicks is way too high now. Instead they should be forcing more situations (IMO) where the people have to think on their feet and adapt quickly to a situation they weren't expecting.
I agree with this. Survivor has gotten far too gimmicky. I rarely think the best player wins anymore. Not that it always happened in the past, but even less so now. I think Survivor is really leaning towards favoring men who can find idols. It's getting harder and harder for women to win. And it's getting harder and harder for solid social and strategic gameplay to win. As we've seen with Chris and Ben, it's all about who gets lucky and finds advantages.
there are way too many gimmicks in the game now. Look at the last tribal: Jeremy holds a safety without power advantage, Sophie has an idol, Kim has an idol, and Michelle has a 50/50 safety chance. A coin flip is now in the game. A coin flip!! And the biggest gimmick of the all, the Edge of Extinction.
 

manmythlegend

Well-Known Member
I would bet that, too, but I thought a woman was going to win last season, too, and you see how that worked out. But I still feel like advantages tend to be found by men, and the fire making challenge favors men, too. It's already hard enough for women to play the same way a man does and get respect, and now there are more barriers. Moms have it even harder, see Carolyn and Chrissy for that. Strong games, but not as much respect as the men who got there, too.

I don't know, I'm not really sure I agree. Frankly, I feel Survivor has made it easier for women to win. In earlier seasons of Survivor, many of the immunity challenges were strength based (i.e. that challenge where you have to hold buckets of water on your shoulder). No way was a woman going to win that. But now, many of the challenges include a puzzle component. And the ones that don't seem to favor those who weigh less (i.e. balance/agility or holding yourself up on a pole). I mean I'm not sure what else can be done to make it 50/50 between men and women? I remember in the past they had challenges that were pure memory challenges which were kind of cool. Not sure why Survivor did away with those.

With regards to the fire making challenge, how does that favor men? Not saying you're wrong necessarily, just wanted to get your perspective on that.
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
there are way too many gimmicks in the game now. Look at the last tribal: Jeremy holds a safety without power advantage, Sophie has an idol, Kim has an idol, and Michelle has a 50/50 safety chance. A coin flip is now in the game. A coin flip!! And the biggest gimmick of the all, the Edge of Extinction.
I loved when there were one or two in play at a time. That made them surprising and much more powerful than they are now. A smart player could do a lot with them. They once were used as social capital. You could use them to leverage trust, or gain a vote. And often that plan would backfire, creating a legitimate blindside. Now they are rarely used creatively because there are so many. They don't hold as much weight when using them as leverage simply because there are so many out there. Advantages are ruining players' creativity.
 

PUSH

Well-Known Member
Original Poster
I don't know, I'm not really sure I agree. Frankly, I feel Survivor has made it easier for women to win. In earlier seasons of Survivor, many of the immunity challenges were strength based (i.e. that challenge where you have to hold buckets of water on your shoulder). No way was a woman going to win that. But now, many of the challenges include a puzzle component. And the ones that don't seem to favor those who weigh less (i.e. balance/agility or holding yourself up on a pole). I mean I'm not sure what else can be done to make it 50/50 between men and women? I remember in the past they had challenges that were pure memory challenges which were kind of cool. Not sure why Survivor did away with those.

With regards to the fire making challenge, how does that favor men? Not saying you're wrong necessarily, just wanted to get your perspective on that.
The general idea is that Survivor contestants tend to take on stereotypical gender roles of our society. Men make the fire at the start of the game, and tend to be the ones who start it all game long. This gives them a lot more practice with fire than women get, lending them to being more likely to succeed at fire. We've seen three cases of men vs women in the fire making challenge since they started making it a permanent fixture of the final 4. We had Wendell vs Angela, Mike vs Kara, and Dean vs Lauren. Men won all three times.

As for men being more likely to find advantages, it follows the same train of thought. Women are often the ones to stay back at camp and clean clothes or pots or tend to the fire. Meanwhile, mean are more often the ones who go out to collect wood or gather coconuts. This gives them much more time to look for idols, because anytime someone leaves camp, they are looking for an idol in some capacity.

As for the immunity challenges you spoke of, yes, I agree they are more even than they used to be. However, I would also argue that individual immunity wins are not as much of a resume builder today as they used to be. As much as fans may not like it, advantages and final 4 fire making are big resume builders.

EDIT - I also just wanted to add and clarify, that these thoughts are not what I think men and women should have to do on Survivor. I think a man can do any job he wants, and a woman can do any job she wants. Neither is more effective at camp duties as the other.
 

manmythlegend

Well-Known Member
The general idea is that Survivor contestants tend to take on stereotypical gender roles of our society. Men make the fire at the start of the game, and tend to be the ones who start it all game long. This gives them a lot more practice with fire than women get, lending them to being more likely to succeed at fire. We've seen three cases of men vs women in the fire making challenge since they started making it a permanent fixture of the final 4. We had Wendell vs Angela, Mike vs Kara, and Dean vs Lauren. Men won all three times.

As for men being more likely to find advantages, it follows the same train of thought. Women are often the ones to stay back at camp and clean clothes or pots or tend to the fire. Meanwhile, mean are more often the ones who go out to collect wood or gather coconuts. This gives them much more time to look for idols, because anytime someone leaves camp, they are looking for an idol in some capacity.

As for the immunity challenges you spoke of, yes, I agree they are more even than they used to be. However, I would also argue that individual immunity wins are not as much of a resume builder today as they used to be. As much as fans may not like it, advantages and final 4 fire making are big resume builders.

EDIT - I also just wanted to add and clarify, that these thoughts are not what I think men and women should have to do on Survivor. I think a man can do any job he wants, and a woman can do any job she wants. Neither is more effective at camp duties as the other.

With regards to the fire making challenges you cited, that's pretty anecdotal. Wendell and Dean are just physical specimens, they excel in those types of situations. Kara was just not a great player overall. Put Parvati against Adam in a fire making challenge and I suspect we may see a different outcome. We just haven't really seen a great athletic female player be put in a fire making challenge yet, at least not that I remember. But the forced fire making challenge at F4 is relatively new, we just don't have enough data points yet to confirm your theory. However, even if what you're saying is true, women need to just take on that role going forward knowing that it could determine their game at a later point. Same thing with the idols.. just hanging back at camp isn't an acceptable excuse. The idols are out there, everyone knows that. So go find them.
 

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