Survivor 44 Discussion Thread

[Jedijax719]

This episode was pretty average.

I have mixed feelings on the fake idols. I think they add some intrigue right now, but I also feel it's a little unfair to give someone a perfectly made fake idol, along with a note. Then you play the dodo music when they find it. WHAT ARE THEY SUPPOSED TO THINK?! THERE'S LITERALLY NO WAY TO TELL IT'S A FAKE UNTIL YOU PLAY IT!!! Also, someone pointed out on Twitter that this can dilute the product of Survivor in future seasons. Now players will have to guess whether their advantage it real or not. It's pure luck. And you can't create strategic moves based on the advantages, because what if they're fakes planted by production? That's the part that really gets me. It waters down the game and feels icky.

I also need Survivor to bring back larger tribes. 8-10 people tarting out. There's nowhere to hide in a 6 person tribe. I think production sees that as a feature, rather than a flaw. It's not fun to watch someone get backed into a corner with literally no way to get out. That's what happened tonight. And it's not fun to watch every tribe vote out their smallest woman because they need to stay strong to win challenges. They can't risk voting out a strong player, because if they go back to Tribal Council... there's nowhere to hide. Too much of a risk for them going home. So vote out the smaller woman and hope you get at least second place. It seems like the new era is not equitable in that sense.

Outside of those takeaways, I'm not sure there are really any other huge takeaways at this point. I've felt terrible for Helen and Claire the past two weeks. They both seemed like such strong players and would have been a lot of fun to see deep into the game. They both seemed heartbroken.

I agree. We need larger tribes again. Tribe dynamics with 6 people are too simplified and options are too narrow. There's much less scrambling;

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

This season is a mess.

I just want to fast forward to the merge and hope it's good.

 

[PUSH]

This season is a mess.

I just want to fast forward to the merge and hope it's good.

I agree that it's been very messy. I think they've had some good ideas, but they've taken them too far. For example, I liked the bird cage idol. But I did not like the fake idol. The cage itself added some interesting social elements to finding an idol. But the fake idol is production interference in my opinion. If the player wants, they can create their own fake idol and replace it. Make the player have the agency.

I also really like the swap, but they made it too extreme with just one person from each tribe swapping, and they received an idol. A traditional swap would have been nice.

I've said it many, many times... trust the casting process. That is the one thing everyone agrees has been pretty darn fantastic in the new era. Trust them to deliver a good show.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

I agree that it's been very messy. I think they've had some good ideas, but they've taken them too far. For example, I liked the bird cage idol. But I did not like the fake idol. The cage itself added some interesting social elements to finding an idol. But the fake idol is production interference in my opinion. If the player wants, they can create their own fake idol and replace it. Make the player have the agency.

I also really like the swap, but they made it too extreme with just one person from each tribe swapping, and they received an idol. A traditional swap would have been nice.

I've said it many, many times... trust the casting process. That is the one thing everyone agrees has been pretty darn fantastic in the new era. Trust them to deliver a good show.

The swap feels like another scripted and contrived element with producer dictated outcomes.

Of course the single swapped player will be on the bottom. Of course they'll play their idol. It allows for the single player to eliminate someone and the net result is, what? Each tribe loses someone but not the person they wanted. Is this good for the game in any way?

Does it create new relationships? Does it create interesting dynamics that could play out in the merge? If it does, I don't see it at this point.

The show doesn't want players to be beholden to a day one alliance. They don't want pagonging. Swaps and smaller tribes help with this because it's not like the old days where the largest tribe to make merge ran the game.

They're trying to create shifting loyalties here I guess, but it's just so random.

 

[Jedijax719]

@Wendy Pleakley I think you nailed it when you said "random". Not only is the swap random and idols random, but voting decisions are pretty random. There's no room for power grids in starting tribes of six. Weaker people are going to be voted out. There is no feeling of taking down the power and seeing an underdog prevail, at least not until the merge.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

@Wendy Pleakley I think you nailed it when you said "random". Not only is the swap random and idols random, but voting decisions are pretty random. There's no room for power grids in starting tribes of six. Weaker people are going to be voted out. There is no feeling of taking down the power and seeing an underdog prevail, at least not until the merge.

The stats people track bear this out. In the new era the majority of early boots are women. When it's men, it's the smaller and weaker guys. With no swaps the only gameplay is to vote out the weaker players.

At least there was a little bit of player choice this time, with the way the trek participants were chosen and Jeff telling them it would be impactful.

As someone who has watched this show since day one, I hate to say it, but if they cancelled it now, I wouldn't even be upset. It probably helps that Australia and South Africa are giving us a better product.

 

[Jedijax719]

From what I've read, watched, and seen in editing charts, AU Survivor extremely heavily edit a sparse few people (this season it's George, Simon, and Hayley) and ignore the rest as if they are all Natalie Whites (from season 19). That's not good either BUT ever since we've seen voting blocks instead of true alliances, things have become more random and hard to follow. Winners at War was one of my favorite seasons, but other than Tony/Sarah, I had NO way of following any alliance. David vs Goliath was one of the better seasons in recent years and had alliances. There was some shake up, but still alliances. Last season was a mess. Season 42 was decent and did have a newly formed alliance of 7 in the merge. I have NO idea what is going on yet this season, but it is still early. In the past, alliances were shown to be created in the first few episodes and they consisted of more than 2 or 3 people. Not so much any more.

 

[PUSH]

Rob Cesternino said it well. He says our viewpoints and productions viewpoint aren't the same. We look at it through a lens of improving the game. Productions looks at it through a lens of making it the most exciting, fast, and unpredictable as possible. The two don't overlap much.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

From what I've read, watched, and seen in editing charts, AU Survivor extremely heavily edit a sparse few people (this season it's George, Simon, and Hayley) and ignore the rest as if they are all Natalie Whites (from season 19). That's not good either BUT ever since we've seen voting blocks instead of true alliances, things have become more random and hard to follow. Winners at War was one of my favorite seasons, but other than Tony/Sarah, I had NO way of following any alliance. David vs Goliath was one of the better seasons in recent years and had alliances. There was some shake up, but still alliances. Last season was a mess. Season 42 was decent and did have a newly formed alliance of 7 in the merge. I have NO idea what is going on yet this season, but it is still early. In the past, alliances were shown to be created in the first few episodes and they consisted of more than 2 or 3 people. Not so much any more.

Survivor AU does winner edits that make the most obvious US winners feel like a mystery novel by comparison. That approach is of course debatable, but at least the game itself is relatively fair. If the casting is done right, they get seasons like the current one where we can appreciate and analyze the gameplay AND still have those big TV moments.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

Rob Cesternino said it well. He says our viewpoints and productions viewpoint aren't the same. We look at it through a lens of improving the game. Productions looks at it through a lens of making it the most exciting, fast, and unpredictable as possible. The two don't overlap much.

I wonder what their current audience is, in terms of hardcore analytical fans versus the casuals. It's not as mainstream a show as it once was so I wonder if that former group is being ignored, at the producer's peril.

I don't even hate the notion that they want to get away from boring seasons which play out predictably, but they're practically scripting it at this point. Here's a fake idol and a note, go fool someone.

There's a balance, but such is the ongoing debate.

 

[JPPT1974]

One thing that I don't like is that no man has been voted out and it is all women.

 

[PUSH]

I wonder what their current audience is, in terms of hardcore analytical fans versus the casuals. It's not as mainstream a show as it once was so I wonder if that former group is being ignored, at the producer's peril.

I don't even hate the notion that they want to get away from boring seasons which play out predictably, but they're practically scripting it at this point. Here's a fake idol and a note, go fool someone.

There's a balance, but such is the ongoing debate.

I think we've brought more casual fans back with the introduction of Survivor to Netflix. I've heard of many people who started watching the seasons that were put on Netflix, and then followed to the current seasons. I can't remember which podcast it was, but someone mentioned a theory about how players now are receiving more hate on Twitter and social media than pre-Netflix because Netflix introduced more casual fans who only see the players as the edited product put on TV. Die hard fans can usually get past the edit. Not sure how much merit that theory has, but it's an interesting one.

I will say, I feel like more people in my real life have mentioned they watch Survivor within the past couple years, as compared to before WaW. But most of them are casual fans.

If they're trying to get rid of "boring", I think season 43 is a case that what they're doing produced a boring game. Your game mechanics voted out women early, and forced the contestants to keep some more boring players for their physical strength. And if you listed to the Jeff Probst podcast this week, they seem to think that's a feature of the game. They want challenges that require incredible physical strength.

And yes, there's a balance. I feel like the Philippines through Kaoh Rong era was the perfect balance of idols. The idols were the climax of the season, and it wasn't so confusing. And in that era, there were only two duds out of the eight seasons (Caramoan and Worlds Apart).

 

[PUSH]

One thing that I don't like is that no man has been voted out and it is all women.

It's definitely a major flaw of the new era. I don't think it's intentional, but it's something production needs to address.

 

[Jedijax719]

Fake idols used to be something people made that were creative. Now, they are planting fake idols and you have no way to know which is real or fake. That kills the whole idea of idols. May as well not have any.

As for females being voted off, it is of course a product of 3 tribes of six. It becomes less of an issue as you get closer to the merge and if there is a swap. However, unless you have female powerhouses, the instinct is to get rid of females that appear weaker. The unfortunate word is "weaker". Last episode, a reasonable argument could be made that Sarah was stronger than both Carolyn and Yam Yam. So it may have made more sense for Josh and Sarah to work together.

 

[PUSH]

Fake idols used to be something people made that were creative. Now, they are planting fake idols and you have no way to know which is real or fake. That kills the whole idea of idols. May as well not have any.

As for females being voted off, it is of course a product of 3 tribes of six. It becomes less of an issue as you get closer to the merge and if there is a swap. However, unless you have female powerhouses, the instinct is to get rid of females that appear weaker. The unfortunate word is "weaker". Last episode, a reasonable argument could be made that Sarah was stronger than both Carolyn and Yam Yam. So it may have made more sense for Josh and Sarah to work together.

I think the Sarah vote is the first vote of the season where tribe strength hasn't played any role in the vote out.

 

[Jedijax719]

Hopping across the world, this weekend is the final 4 for AU HvV. Final 4 are George (controlling EVERYTHING and arrogant about it), Gerry (annoyingly loyal), Matt (annoying loyal but has suggested he wants to do SOMETHING), Liz (apparently loyal but still upset about her BFF Shonee being ousted).

 

[Jedijax719]

It's pretty obvious that there has been shenanigans to keep George alive in AU Survivor. Now, if they end up with fire in the final 4, I wouldn't be surprised if they secretly douse George's kindling with lighter fluid.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

It's pretty obvious that there has been shenanigans to keep George alive in AU Survivor. Now, if they end up with fire in the final 4, I wouldn't be surprised if they secretly douse George's kindling with lighter fluid.

That's a common myth/perception that isn't supported by the facts.

When has the show actually saved George?

Survivor AU always has non-eliminations because of their episode count, and they did shift to a final 3 prior to this season.

 

[Jedijax719]

That's a common myth/perception that isn't supported by the facts.

When has the show actually saved George?

Survivor AU always has non-eliminations because of their episode count, and they did shift to a final 3 prior to this season.

There were rumors that the jury suspected it BUT it was the jury's fault George hung around so long.

FINAL 10; Nina and Shaun made a HUGE blunder in waiting to show their idols until after the votes were cast. They should have definitely flashed their idols BEFORE anyone voted and caused the Vigilantes to completely panic and scramble. Don't tell them who the idols will be played for OR if they will even be played. Then, if they are afraid that George will put his own idol, they could reduce the risk and vote out, say, either Gerry or Matt. Amateur Survivor by waiting to show your idols to a power group.

FINAL 9: In the final 9 as soon as the plan was Shonee, Nina should have told Shaun and Shaun could have flipped Simon. Nina could have told Shonee and Liz and hoped they heeded her advice that Shonee was the target and to flip it on George. (that's how they've done it here). At least it would have been 3 votes for George and Liz could know she could trust Nina.

FINAL 8: If the final 9 plan did not work, and it was known that George, Gerry. Matt, and Hayley were splitting votes, this would have been a GREAT opportunity to get rid of George. Nina, Liz, Shaun, and Simon could have voted for him.

FINAL 7: So, if neither of the above plans worked, then it could easily have been Nina, Liz, Simon, Shaun, and Hayley to vote out George. Once the plan became Hayley, that was the ripe opportunity to cut off George.

After final 7, things were extremely difficult. However, EVERYONE should have known VERY early that the power 3 was George, Gerry, and Matt. Once Shonee was gone, it was cemented and GGM were in the minority.

 

[Wendy Pleakley]

There were rumors that the jury suspected it BUT it was the jury's fault George hung around so long.

FINAL 10; Nina and Shaun made a HUGE blunder in waiting to show their idols until after the votes were cast. They should have definitely flashed their idols BEFORE anyone voted and caused the Vigilantes to completely panic and scramble. Don't tell them who the idols will be played for OR if they will even be played. Then, if they are afraid that George will put his own idol, they could reduce the risk and vote out, say, either Gerry or Matt. Amateur Survivor by waiting to show your idols to a power group.

FINAL 9: In the final 9 as soon as the plan was Shonee, Nina should have told Shaun and Shaun could have flipped Simon. Nina could have told Shonee and Liz and hoped they heeded her advice that Shonee was the target and to flip it on George. (that's how they've done it here). At least it would have been 3 votes for George and Liz could know she could trust Nina.

FINAL 8: If the final 9 plan did not work, and it was known that George, Gerry. Matt, and Hayley were splitting votes, this would have been a GREAT opportunity to get rid of George. Nina, Liz, Shaun, and Simon could have voted for him.

FINAL 7: So, if neither of the above plans worked, then it could easily have been Nina, Liz, Simon, Shaun, and Hayley to vote out George. Once the plan became Hayley, that was the ripe opportunity to cut off George.

After final 7, things were extremely difficult. However, EVERYONE should have known VERY early that the power 3 was George, Gerry, and Matt. Once Shonee was gone, it was cemented and GGM were in the minority.

Spoiler: Survivor AU

Well, you said it there yourself. The players could have voted out George many times. The show didn't save him. There was never a conspicuously placed Idol or a non-elimination at just the right time.

This will go down as an all time great Survivor season, with an * for many people that the edit was far too George heavy, to the point anything but a George win was going to feel somewhat lacking.